Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Tazi Hupefi]

Hardly the best way to attract people to the role, though, is it?

Why would you want to attract people to the role? If you slashed pay to barely above minimum wage with only the statutory minimum employment conditions, you'd still have hundreds of applicants.

Eventually, these sorts of roles will end up with Carlisle Security and the like - although I am surprised that the likes of Swissport, Menzies and other handling agents at airports didn't try to enter the rail market. DHL do some logistics / catering at Avanti, so perhaps they may consider it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any reason why TVMs cannot sell rovers and rangers?

None whatsoever, because Northern's TVMs do. Yes, even 14 day First Class All Line Rovers!

 

[skyhigh]

If you slashed pay to barely above minimum wage with only the statutory minimum employment conditions, you'd still have hundreds of applicants.

Would you really? I'm not so sure when the likes of Aldi would be paying better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you really? I'm not so sure when the likes of Aldi would be paying better.

No scope to do a half-job at Aldi, it's fast paced hard work in return for paying more than average for that sort of role. We're all well aware that because of the low supervision levels it's perfectly possible to do that on the railway, certainly in sales type roles.

Like many OBSs on Southern, I suspect some of these "journey makers" will instead find a suitably well hidden bench to sit on and fiddle with their phone all day, and nobody will really notice.

 

[bramling]

Why would you want to attract people to the role? If you slashed pay to barely above minimum wage with only the statutory minimum employment conditions, you'd still have hundreds of applicants.

Which seems to sum up how this country as a whole is progressing - low wage, low skill, low qualification. Then we wonder why nothing in this country seems to function properly.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

None whatsoever, because Northern's TVMs do. Yes, even 14 day First Class All Line Rovers!

Would be an interesting FOI request -

How much did it cost to enable / maintain the Ranger/Rover functionality.
How many rovers/rangers are actually sold since adding in that functionality.

It wouldn't surprise me if Northern got it thrown in as some form of compensation as a result of the serious Flowbird issues they encountered during introduction and some of the cyber security issues etc.

I bet some locations even with staffed ticket offices have never sold a ranger or rover in years or could be counted on your fingers.

London Overground do also sell rangers and rovers, (relevant to their area), however - it isn't just Northern, so can be done. I suspect it is a question of:

1) Is ranger and rover demand so low that the cost of reworking software for that specific type of TVM is not sustainable;
2) Is adding ranger and rover capability undermining the industry drive towards smart ticketing / adding an extra step of complexity to the ticketing system that benefits very few- in which case, should they even be an option anywhere.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Chiltern's consultation page is now up: https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/ticketofficeproposals

Bare minimum of information therein, however!

Yes - so can we take it the Chiltern want to close all their ticket offices?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would be an interesting FOI request -

How much did it cost to enable / maintain the Ranger/Rover functionality.
How many rovers/rangers are actually sold since adding in that functionality.

I bet some locations even with staffed ticket offices have never sold a ranger or rover in years or could be counted on your fingers.

London Overground do also sell rangers and rovers, (relevant to their area), however - it isn't just Northern, so can be done. I suspect it is a question of:

1) Is ranger and rover demand so low that the cost of reworking software for that specific type of TVM is not sustainable;
2) Is adding ranger and rover capability undermining the industry drive towards smart ticketing / adding an extra step of complexity to the ticketing system that benefits very few- in which case, should they even be an option anywhere.

Why would you want to encourage the TOCs to offer poorer service than they've chosen to offer? That's a pretty extreme version of this Forum's beloved "can't do that because <excuse>".

I did wonder if we'd instead move to a Rovers and Rangers website as the only way to get one, but it seems we haven't.

 

[sprunt]

From that I am assuming that the likes of rovers, rangers etc may not be available from TVMs or these “journey makers”?

According to the LNER consultation document they're going to be available at the remaining ticket offices. Now, I couldn't possibly condone this but if one wanted to avoid payment it seems like this is leaving an open goal for people to say - having first confirmed that they aren't available from any non-LNER TVMs at stations they'll be using - "I require a Rover ticket to cover my intended travel today and I intend to purchase one at the first opportunity." Not their fault if no such opportunity is presented to them.

 

[bramling]

No scope to do a half-job at Aldi, it's fast paced hard work in return for paying more than average for that sort of role. We're all well aware that because of the low supervision levels it's perfectly possible to do that on the railway, certainly in sales type roles.

Like many OBSs on Southern, I suspect some of these "journey makers" will instead find a suitably well hidden bench to sit on and fiddle with their phone all day, and nobody will really notice.

Quite probably. This is what happens when poorly-defined roles are created for essentially political reasons. And, as you say, the nature of the railway means supervision is minimal, so good performance relies on having motivated staff. This is where the industry shoots itself in the foot time after time with its toxic and confrontational IR culture.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes - so can we take it the Chiltern want to close all their ticket offices?

I suspect so, given that there aren't really any major ones bar Marylebone (which won't sell that many as it's mostly a destination) and Moor St (same).

Aylesbury Vale Parkway's one seems even more pointless than Aughton Park - it's basically all commuters on seasons, and those few who aren't are the sort of people who will have a smartphone or at least manage the TVM. It really surprises me that that station was even built with one, the building was probably £200K or so that didn't need spending at all. Wolverton's fairly pointless newish building similarly. I've used the station a few times now and I don't think I've seen anyone using the booking office even once.

 

[winks]

Just downloaded the SWR proposal. Are we saying that even with the category 1 stations there will be no physical ticket office?

Yes. All offices to shut but will stay on an interim basis.

Page 5 of the document:

“We propose to close all ticket offices and provide more face to face support to customers.”

 

[Coolzac]

According to the LNER consultation document they're going to be available at the remaining ticket offices. Now, I couldn't possibly condone this but if one wanted to avoid payment it seems like this is leaving an open goal for people to say - having first confirmed that they aren't available from any non-LNER TVMs at stations they'll be using - "I require a Rover ticket to cover my intended travel today and I intend to purchase one at the first opportunity." Not their fault if no such opportunity is presented to them.

What would happen if you were at a station with a ticket barrier and said this? In theory would they have to let you through? In practice would they?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

An interesting, albeit niche, point is the issues with Euston, Crewe and Preston closures - it will mean that it will become impossible to purchase a Caledonian Sleeper ticket anywhere other than online via the Caledonian Sleeper website (unless you happen to find a competent ticket office somewhere way off the route). This means essentially it becomes card payment only. For Crewe, you'd have to take a trip to Manchester Airport ticket office to make a sleeper reservation if you didn't want to pay online.

What would happen if you were at a station with a ticket barrier and said this? In theory would they have to let you through? In practice would they?

I suspect the Promise to Pay / Permit to Travel solution Northern have came up with will probably become more available elsewhere in time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An interesting, albeit niche, point is the issues with Euston, Crewe and Preston closures - it will mean that it will become impossible to purchase a Caledonian Sleeper ticket anywhere other than online via the Caledonian Sleeper website (unless you happen to find a competent ticket office somewhere way off the route). This means essentially it becomes card payment only. For Crewe, you'd have to take a trip to Manchester Airport ticket office to make a sleeper reservation if you didn't want to pay online.

I can't imagine there being many people using CS that don't have a payment card given the very high prices. I believe you can also purchase by telephone if you don't like computers.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I suspect so, given that there aren't really any major ones bar Marylebone (which won't sell that many as it's mostly a destination) and Moor St (same).

Aylesbury Vale Parkway's one seems even more pointless than Aughton Park - it's basically all commuters on seasons, and those few who aren't are the sort of people who will have a smartphone or at least manage the TVM. It really surprises me that that station was even built with one, the building was probably £200K or so that didn't need spending at all. Wolverton's fairly pointless newish building similarly. I've used the station a few times now and I don't think I've seen anyone using the booking office even once.

I can't find any data from Chiltern.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I can't imagine there being many people using CS that don't have a payment card given the very high prices. I believe you can also purchase by telephone if you don't like computers.

Just interesting that it essentially becomes de-facto 'card only' - but as you say, it probably has been in that category for some time given the tariffs.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Perchance the DfT / Treasury have gone for the classic trick in announcing the maximum number of closures, fully expecting to row back a bit to demonstrate 'we have listened' and arriving at where they wanted to be all along? it is inconceivable that Paddington, Waterloo or Manchester Piccadilly would not have a ticket office - having said that in Sweden not even Stockholm Central does, and they are even starting to phase out ticket machines.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes. All offices to shut but will stay on an interim basis.

Are you taking "interim retail facilities" to mean temporarily remaining ticket offices? I was assuming roving retail/revenue staff. Even if your assumption is correct that's only for Category 1 stations.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Perchance the DfT / Treasury have gone for the classic trick in announcing the maximum number of closures, fully expecting to row back a bit to demonstrate 'we have listened' and arriving at where they wanted to be all along? it is inconceivable that Paddington, Waterloo or Manchester Piccadilly would not have a ticket office - having said that in Sweden not even Stockholm Central does, and they are even starting to phase out ticket machines.

There will be some changes and amendments, undoubtedly - "planned concessions". If you were a TOC, you'd be crazy not to at least try for the best case first, and see what you can get away with.

However, Paddington/Waterloo/Manchester Picc probably aren't in that list.

 

[nr758123]

Huddersfield and Manchester Airport remaining.

For now. TPE anticipate that Huddersfield and Manchester Airport ticket offices will also close in the future, but subject to a separate consultation which they would not expect to launch until Spring 2024 at the earliest.

They don't want to attract people to the role. This is an attempt to wear the staff down so that they can resign and not be replaced.

Where a single eight hour shift in a ticket office reduces to two hours as a "journey maker", I can't help thinking there will be a lot of staff taking retirement or voluntary redundancy, with not too much effort being put into trying to recruit a replacement.

"journeymakers" (incidentally the dumbest new term I've heard for a while)

I assume it’s derived from the “games maker” volunteer roles at stations during the 2012 Olympics

For some reason I thought of the Hunger Games, though I'm not quite sure the analogy works.

c2c appears to be renaming their staff to "Floorwalker"

Which prompted me to think of Captain Peacock in "Are You Being Served"

 

[Goldfish62]

Perchance the DfT / Treasury have gone for the classic trick in announcing the maximum number of closures, fully expecting to row back a bit to demonstrate 'we have listened' and arriving at where they wanted to be all along? it is inconceivable that Paddington, Waterloo or Manchester Piccadilly would not have a ticket office - having said that in Sweden not even Stockholm Central does, and they are even starting to phase out ticket machines.

London Waterloo and Manchester Piccadilly ticket offices are closing.

 

[185]

Just read the proposal for one booking office "Current hours 6-1 Mon Sat. Proposed hours: Visited weekly by mobile colleagues"

Just wait there Mrs Goggins, someone will be with you next Tuesday.

 

[Snow1964]

Currently most TVMs do not vend them. It remains unclear what tickets these staff will be able to vend.

As it stands, if you cannot obtain a ticket at the origin you can board the train and purchase it at the next available opportunity. If you're in a Penalty Fare area you need to obtain a "promise to pay" first where possible.

The GWR document says rovers and rangers can be bought on train (and online and telesales) in alternative provision section.

So it appears GWR conductors and guards (and if you take it literally a driver on a DOO service) will sell you a rover.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just read the proposal for one booking office "Current hours 6-1 Mon Sat. Proposed hours: Visited weekly by mobile colleagues"

Just wait there Mrs Goggins, someone will be with you next Tuesday.

Way back when, Hamburg's U- and S-Bahn had booking offices which were opened once a month on a rotating basis so people could buy, for cash*, monthly season tickets.

I guess it's that.

* Germany of the 1990s barely did cards at all.

 

[MikeWM]

I also think the stations involved are perhaps in some cases badly chosen based on it being a per-TOC thing rather than national. Marylebone or Fenchurch St I get, Southern stations mostly used by commuters similarly, but really the "big three" InterCity London stations need a high quality customer service centre. (That is, Euston, Paddington and Kings Cross).

As do, at the very least, Birmingham New Street and Manchester Piccadilly. And probably Bristol Temple Meads.

Closing all those is total madness.

I suppose I'm 'lucky' in that I'll still be able to travel to Cambridge to talk to a real human being to buy a ticket (albeit at reduced hours from currently). Many people won't have a single ticket office anywhere remotely near them if all these go ahead.

 

[frodshamfella]

Another backward step by the UK, why is everything about cutting in this country.

 

[NARobertson]

Despite word of these proposals I cannot find anywhere on the Internet any document detailing this scheme.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Another backward step by the UK, why is everything about cutting in this country.

Hardly backwards when by any metric, it's pretty obvious no matter what you do, ticket offices are in total decline, and will continue on that trajectory. Closures are important and necessary.

The issues are around how the closures are managed, how are staff redeployed - and what interim steps need to be taken to ensure a very small percentage of edge cases are still catered for or supported on to the replacement ticketing methods.

 

[winks]

Perchance the DfT / Treasury have gone for the classic trick in announcing the maximum number of closures, fully expecting to row back a bit to demonstrate 'we have listened' and arriving at where they wanted to be all along? it is inconceivable that Paddington, Waterloo or Manchester Piccadilly would not have a ticket office - having said that in Sweden not even Stockholm Central does, and they are even starting to phase out ticket machines.

unfortunately the plan is to close all offices including Waterloo and Paddington - once the TVMs and apps can offer all products digitally. So yes the offices will go but the plan is to force people to using apps and the TVMs. Nearly all visits to tickets offices can be purchased using the Ticket Machines on the booking hall. Admittedly a small portion can’t.