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Passengers boarding train prior to display on screens

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12LDA28C

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But what's being discussed here presumably isn't part of the Rule Book as otherwise the other TOCs mentioned would not be operating in the way that they do?

I wouldn't expect frontline staff to be able to give chapter and verse about why a certain policy is in place but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that customer services should be able to find an answer should a passenger ask a question that is better than "it's our policy and we've always done it this way".

The Rule Book has developed from the basic all-encompassing universal publication it used to be and these days some of it has become TOC or FOC specific, ie TOCs will now have their own particular processes and procedures which will only apply to that specific operator and form part of the Rule Book issued to employees of that company. This is why we now have things like Professional Driving Policies and suchlike which will cover the same kind of scenarios but differ from TOC to TOC.

And often written in blood

Indeed.
 
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Bluejays

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Surprised that there seem to be staff who go out the way to 'chase down' people boarding early. Seems like a pointless endeavour that stresses both sides.

Having said that, one of my pet hates is the small percentage of idiots who decide to board early but then still want to bang on the cab or ask staff ' is this the train to ...?'. If they want to be 100% then they should wait for the boards. As for the majority of early boarders, who use whatever app and just get on with it , good luck to them I say. I do exactly the same myself
 

Peter0124

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I tend to board trains very early (eg when its not on the board but is showing the correct headcode on signalling maps) because I need the quiet space and feel more comfortable getting the seat I want. Also sometimes want to get work done so lay my laptop out etc. So I do be hoping they aren't locked.

I think they lock the train at Lanark, Gourock, Glasgow Central etc to avoid having people board the wrong set esp if the train on the same platform but up ahead is theirs.
 
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Adam Williams

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If, as you allude, there was a death or serious injury behind this policy being put in place, I assume it would've been disclosed to the RAIB and fully investigated.

I've found some RAIB incident reports criticising Chiltern's training processes and assessment of driver knowledge, but nothing related to passengers being injured in a coupling/uncoupling event by virtue of boarding the train prior. It's entirely possible I've missed something, though - and would welcome being corrected.
 

Mcr Warrior

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I think they lock the train at Lanark, Gourock, Glasgow Central etc to avoid having people board the wrong set esp if the train on the same platform but up ahead is theirs.
Seen this practice at Edinburgh Waverley also. Suppose it stops anyone wanting to board a Scotrail train for stations to Glasgow Queen Street from potentially being overcarried on a TPE service to Lockerbie or Carlisle.
 

ComUtoR

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I''ve found some RAIB incident reports criticising Chiltern's training processes and assessment of driver knowledge, but nothing related to passengers being injured in a coupling/uncoupling event by virtue of boarding the train prior. It's entirely possible I've missed something, though - and would welcome being corrected.

Not every single incident is investigated by the RAIB or even made public in any way.

Passengers have been hurt during uncoupling/coupling. You just haven't heard of it.

A lot of policy is also put in place because of passengers. All it takes now days is for someone to complain about the slightest thing and policy often gets changed to reflect passenger demands.or passenger incidents.
 

uglymonkey

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Sometimes, just sometimes I feel the railway is run for the benefit of the railway and the "customers" come 2nd.
 

ainsworth74

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Sometimes, just sometimes I feel the railway is run for the benefit of the railway and the "customers" come 2nd.
To me it's more a reluctance to explain why the railway does things that are "anti-customer". There are often very good reasons why something is done the way it's done, they just might not be obvious to the average punter. So when queried just being told "it's policy" and/or "we've always done it this way" isn't exactly helpful. Explaining what the reason for the policy is, even though a passenger may prefer that they change the policy, is a far more constructive approach and therefore likely to defuse quite a lot, if not all, the ill-will generated.

Again, not a reasonable expectation of frontline staff to be able to do that in all circumstances at all times (they may not know, they have safety critical duties, or even just time sensitive work to get on with, etc etc). But certainly not unreasonable for customer service staff I'd suggest.

Now, of course, it's perfectly possible that a certain policy really is just down to the convience of the TOC in question and those that drafted it either didn't consider or just didn't care about the impact on customers. But for me the starting point is to actually communicate the reasons for an otherwise seemingly odd policy.
 

Peter0124

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If its not needing cleaned and is just sitting on a platform unused then I see no issue in allowing people to board, even if its 50 minutes before departure. There's cameras on the train to prevent vandalism. Being able to sit down with a laptop on a table is much nicer than sitting in uncomfy seats on the platform waiting to board it. Though it would only work for enthusiasts or people who know a set's diagram as it wouldn't be on the departure board.

I've even used the toilet on a stationary train because either the queues at the station were too big or you had to pay to use them, and I haven't touched a coin in years.
 

12LDA28C

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If its not needing cleaned and is just sitting on a platform unused then I see no issue in allowing people to board, even if its 50 minutes before departure. There's cameras on the train to prevent vandalism. Being able to sit down with a laptop on a table is much nicer than sitting in uncomfy seats on the platform waiting to board it. Though it would only work for enthusiasts or people who know a set's diagram as it wouldn't be on the departure board.

I've even used the toilet on a stationary train because either the queues at the station were too big or you had to pay to use them, and I haven't touched a coin in years.

Cameras on the train do not always prevent vandalism. Not all cameras on older stock can be viewed live remotely so do not act as a deterrent. Not sure why you would want to sit on a train for 50 minutes before departure... certainly at a station like Marylebone a train wouldn't sit there for that long anyway due to the nature of operations there.
 
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bramling

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Cameras on the train do not always prevent vandalism. Not all cameras on older stock can be viewed live remotely so do not act as a deterrent. Not sure why you would want to sit on a train for 50 minutes before departure... certainly at a station like Marylebone a train wouldn't sit there for that long anyway due to the nature of operations there.

There’s plenty of reasons. One might have a ticket only valid on a particular service, one might be meeting someone who either hasn’t arrived yet or will be boarding that particular service later in the journey, that might be the next available service which calls at one‘s destination, one might be in a job role which is “on call” until a certain time, to name just a few examples. That 50 minutes might well allow some productive work to be done, or else it might simply allow spending the time in a comfortable seat as opposed to on a cold platform or concourse.

There, we’ve heard a number of reasons for things being arranged around Chiltern’s operational convenience, so hopefully that provides some balance.

In the past I’ve regularly sat on trains at King’s Cross for 45 minutes or even more prior to departure for various reasons. Luckily King’s Cross have always been very good on this, and the 365s (which didn’t even have CCTV) certainly weren’t getting vandalised as a result. Unless we’re saying Chiltern’s clientele is several orders of magnitude rougher than GN’s, which given the places they serve I’d suggest is rather unlikely.
 

12LDA28C

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There’s plenty of reasons. One might have a ticket only valid on a particular service, one might be meeting someone who either hasn’t arrived yet or will be boarding that particular service later in the journey, that might be the next available service which calls at one‘s destination, one might be in a job role which is “on call” until a certain time, to name just a few examples. That 50 minutes might well allow some productive work to be done, or else it might simply allow spending the time in a comfortable seat as opposed to on a cold platform or concourse.

There, we’ve heard a number of reasons for things being arranged around Chiltern’s operational convenience, so hopefully that provides some balance.

Did you ignore the bit where I mentioned that a train really wouldn't sit at Marylebone for 50 minutes with the doors open so that people could board? Apparently so.

It appears you're in favour of Chiltern changing some processes to methods that are operationally inconvenient. I'm sure you'd be perfectly happy to accept the resultant delays to services caused by this. I take it for example that you're aware if a unit couples to another one that people are boarding, the doors automatically shut, potentially trapping someone in the doors, yes?
 

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I take it for example that you're aware if a unit couples to another one that people are boarding, the doors automatically shut, potentially trapping someone in the doors, yes?
Oh honestly - if a train you want to couple to has open doors, then you close them. In the same way that you do whenever you prepare to depart. A driver has the opportunity to check that the doors are closed when he checks that there aren't any pheasants wedged into the coupling.

There's no need to detrain everyone.
 

bramling

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Did you ignore the bit where I mentioned that a train really wouldn't sit at Marylebone for 50 minutes with the doors open so that people could board? Apparently so.

It appears you're in favour of Chiltern changing some processes to methods that are operationally inconvenient. I'm sure you'd be perfectly happy to accept the resultant delays to services caused by this. I take it for example that you're aware if a unit couples to another one that people are boarding, the doors automatically shut, potentially trapping someone in the doors, yes?

In the latter example, the doors on both units would be surely be closed beforehand? At King’s Cross this was how it was done, with a suitable announcement being made beforehand that the doors would be closed and then re-opened shortly afterwards, and normally asking people to remain seated. Worked quite happily there, with the 365s being very similar to Chiltern’s 165s.

I’m not sure why the focus on 50 minutes here, as surely the fact people have raised an issue with being kept out of units at Marylebone suggests it *is* causing inconvenience to people, even if it’s not as long as 50 minutes. As it happens I’ve just had a very quick look at the timetable for Marylebone and it didn’t take too long to find what appears to be a 51-minute turnaround.
 

12LDA28C

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Oh honestly - if a train you want to couple to has open doors, then you close them. In the same way that you do whenever you prepare to depart. A driver has the opportunity to check that the doors are closed when he checks that there aren't any pheasants wedged into the coupling.

There's no need to detrain everyone.

As I've posted numerous times - passengers are not detrained. They are not allowed to board in the first place. Seems some people on this forum have trouble reading. If anyone has a problem with a specific Chiltern procedure such as late boarding of trains at Marylebone I'm sure the station manager there would welcome all correspondence so feel free to get in touch. Or alternatively, just moan about it on a rail forum.
 

Krokodil

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As I've posted numerous times - passengers are not detrained. They are not allowed to board in the first place.
If Chiltern needed to couple/uncouple a train mid-service, what would their company appendix to the rule book have them do with the passengers?

If I am in a platform with a unit waiting for another portion to arrive, I don't just leave the passengers out in the cold. I release the doors, let them board, then re-lock the doors once the attaching set is arriving.

If anyone has a problem with a specific Chiltern procedure such as late boarding of trains at Marylebone I'm sure the station manager there would welcome all correspondence so feel free to get in touch.
This sort of thing will be well above the pay grade of a station manager. Probably something to do with Ops Standards.

Or alternatively, just moan about it on a rail forum.
It's a free country, you know.
 

12LDA28C

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If Chiltern needed to couple/uncouple a train mid-service, what would their company appendix to the rule book have them do with the passengers?

Coupling with passengers on board is allowed for in certain situations, but it is not normal practice.

This sort of thing will be well above the pay grade of a station manager. Probably something to do with Ops Standards.

Of course, however the station manager would be able to explain why a particular procedure is in place to aid understanding if somebody wants to know why something is done in a certain way.
 

cactustwirly

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They'd not be left dark, though, lights are left on on EMUs.

That said emergency lighting usually remains on on 16x laying over at Marylebone, so I do see that argument. Better though would be to lock the doors, put the platform up and let people queue at the train. The "Euston scrum" approach advantages nobody but cleaning staff.

There will be full lighting unless it's been left a very long time without the engine off
 

sammyg901

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If you get really unlucky with Chiltern late at night they just might not display the train at all!

Perhaps it's just my services but I find this new timetable not so bad for needing to use the boarding area or particularly late boarding. There are certainly some services where boarding could happen a little earlier - the 18:37 is one of them.

But then again in such a small station not boarding until later gives them max flexibility to say put a unit on platform 3 out and in before that service or to step up the unit onto another working. Both of which I've seen happen in the past few weeks. So I don't see them going ahead and changing any time soon. At Euston this would be quite unlikely to happen due to the number of platforms they have there for example.
 

jamesst

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If the passenger experience was the priority then you'd simply make it clearer in the carriage as to where the part of the train was going in order to reduce this risk.


The problem seems to be that some rail staff care very little about the passenger experience and prioritise operational convenience or supporting rules "because it's policy and always has been". This doesn't surprise me in the slightest, it's a culture problem.


It's incorrect to suggest that the interiors of the carriages are pitch black when the engines are off at a terminus.


DfT do care about revenue recovery/reducing the burden on public funds - and there are some areas where this can overlap with improving the passenger experience.

Letting passengers queue on the platform doesn't cost anything. Leaving them frustrated after a poor experience is a good way to make them consider another transport method!


Have you ever been to Marylebone in the winter?! It's not a pleasant experience waiting in the cold, nor is standing for an hour and a half after the service turns up short-formed and you weren't allowed on the platform to get a seat.


This isn't the United States. Has this actually ever actually happened and ended up in court, with a judgement awarded to the person who tripped?
I can assure you the British public are only too keen to claim for anything and everything, dont fall for the its only an American problem belief.
 

RPM

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There will be full lighting unless it's been left a very long time without the engine off
Not on 165s. It is entirely dependent on the auxiliary batteries on each individual vehicle and at what point in their life cycle they are. If the batteries are getting towards the end of their lives the saloon lighting will drop out completely almost as soon as the engines are shut down. It didn't used to be an issue back when engines were generally kept running constantly (as was normal practice when the units were designed). The problem only reared its head when noise and pollution considerations became more of an issue.
 

jumble

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Ok. So that begs the question why would an operator not do something that makes life easier for them?
Sorry to say this but you don't seem very mindful that there fare paying customers involved
Are you of the mindset that "This railway would be so much easier to run if we did not have customers interfering?"

If it's a policy that is in place for a reason, i
How do you know?
 

AlterEgo

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Ok. So that begs the question why would an operator not do something that makes life easier for them?
Because sometimes the operator should do things which benefit the customer over mere operational convenience. After all you don't run empty stock all day.
 

185

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Surprised that there seem to be staff who go out the way to 'chase down' people boarding early. Seems like a pointless endeavour that stresses both sides.
At another station, the general opinion is leave them to it, and if there's a set swap, that is their punishment - seeing a train full of passengers out the window sailing away wondering whey their own train is so quiet. Funny when one of them was kicking off at the staff after relying on (old) RealTimeTrains data which subsequently changed.
 

Adrian1980uk

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There's 2 things that scream out to me, 1 it's not very efficient use of the train sitting in the station, while sitting there it's not earning revenue. I accept there operational / timetable reasons for that but the TOC would want to get the most utilisation out of the asset, remember GNER going through a process on the ECML to avoid long layovers at stations.

2: there may be train/ platform changes last minute and it would be more difficult to move all the passengers to a different train
 

12LDA28C

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There will be full lighting unless it's been left a very long time without the engine off

This is not correct. Often the interior lights switch off immediately the engines are shut down.

Not on 165s. It is entirely dependent on the auxiliary batteries on each individual vehicle and at what point in their life cycle they are. If the batteries are getting towards the end of their lives the saloon lighting will drop out completely almost as soon as the engines are shut down. It didn't used to be an issue back when engines were generally kept running constantly (as was normal practice when the units were designed). The problem only reared its head when noise and pollution considerations became more of an issue.

Indeed.
 

D6130

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Up to the time of my retirement from Northern - just over ten years ago - it was a security requirement (I believe stipulated by the Home Office) that trains left unattended in platforms had to be left closed and locked until the arrival of the next train crew. Not sure whether this is still the case though.
 

12LDA28C

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Sorry to say this but you don't seem very mindful that there fare paying customers involved
Are you of the mindset that "This railway would be so much easier to run if we did not have customers interfering?"


How do you know?

Where did I say the railway would be much easier to run without customers?

Railway operations are done a particular way for a reason. Do you believe that Chiltern sometimes posts trains on information screens at the last minute just for fun? Or to deliberately annoy passengers? Clearly not.

If you have in depth knowledge of operations at Marylebone and can suggest various improvements to the way things are done that are actually achievable within the many constraints that Chiltern operate under, feel free to post them.

Because sometimes the operator should do things which benefit the customer over mere operational convenience. After all you don't run empty stock all day.

If doing something a particular way would result in for example increased risk of delay to services, that would seem to me to be a good reason not to do something.
It may be the case for example that Chiltern's safety case does not allow for attaching/detaching units with passengers on board except for in exceptional circumstances. Again, just because another operator does it is irrelevant.
 
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AlterEgo

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If doing something a particular way would result in for example increased risk of delay to services, that would seem to me to be a good reason not to do something.
It may be the case for example that Chiltern's safety case does not allow for attaching/detaching units with passengers on board except for in exceptional circumstances. Again, just because another operator does it is irrelevant.
Why is it not relevant? Why would one TOC make a safety case one way and another TOC another way? Is the other TOC "unsafe" or taking risks?

This isn't in the Rule Book, as we have ascertained, but rather is a policy decided TOC by TOC, and the different approaches don't really make much sense.
 
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