Northern Ad hoc cancellations

[BPN2022]

Noticed that on the Blackpool North branch there are trains being removed from the system daily, due to uncovered turns I presume. However in reality these are cancellations.

Liverpool and the odd Man Airport seem to take the hit. I thought they couldn’t do this anymore?

Is there a short notice timetable in operation or are control removing ad hoc on the day like they have been doing for the last year or so?

 

[Danfilm007]

Noticed that on the Blackpool North branch there are trains being removed from the system daily, due to uncovered turns I presume. However in reality these are cancellations.

Liverpool and the odd Man Airport seem to take the hit. I thought they couldn’t do this anymore?

Is there a short notice timetable in operation or are control removing ad hoc on the day like they have been doing for the last year or so?

Constantly happens to the Mid Cheshire Lines Chester to Stockport runs too! Very frustrating...

 

[td97]

There are 100+ full "pre-planned" cancellations every day.
The routes staffed from Liverpool, Piccadilly, Wigan, Barrow and Blackpool depots usually feature in the cancellation list. Buxton, Manchester Victoria and Blackburn routes seem ok. There have recently been some dire days on Manchester to Blackpool with 1.5hr gaps in service during pm peak.
Somehow Northern (8%) still have a lower cancellation rate than TPE (10.8%) and Grand Central (9.6%).

P-coded cancellations | ORR Data Portal

 

[BPN2022]

There are 100+ full "pre-planned" cancellations every day.
The routes staffed from Liverpool, Piccadilly, Wigan, Barrow and Blackpool depots usually feature in the cancellation list. Buxton, Manchester Victoria and Blackburn routes seem ok. There have recently been some dire days on Manchester to Blackpool with 1.5hr gaps in service during pm peak.
Somehow Northern (8%) still have a lower cancellation rate than TPE (10.8%) and Grand Central (9.6%).

P-coded cancellations | ORR Data Portal

Is this half term related?

 

[td97]

Is this half term related?

No. September was 8.4% so this month supposedly represents an improvement.

 

[Kite159]

There are 100+ full "pre-planned" cancellations every day.
The routes staffed from Liverpool, Piccadilly, Wigan, Barrow and Blackpool depots usually feature in the cancellation list. Buxton, Manchester Victoria and Blackburn routes seem ok. There have recently been some dire days on Manchester to Blackpool with 1.5hr gaps in service during pm peak.
Somehow Northern (8%) still have a lower cancellation rate than TPE (10.8%) and Grand Central (9.6%).

P-coded cancellations | ORR Data Portal

Guess the advantage Northern has (in that particular league table) against Grand Central & TPE is the sheer number of services they run.
Although it's still bad they are pre cancelling so many services, misusing the P-Code system.

 

[Llandudno]

Travelling by Northern, TransPennine and TfW is like playing Russian Roulette, if you were catching a plane, attending an interview or work meeting, going to a concert, theatre or sports event would you risk travelling by train?

Is it any wonder passenger numbers for these operators are not back to pre Covid levels…?

 

[Horizon22]

Travelling by Northern, TransPennine and TfW is like playing Russian Roulette, if you were catching a plane, attending an interview or work meeting, going to a concert, theatre or sports event would you risk travelling by train?

Is it any wonder passenger numbers for these operators are not back to pre Covid levels…?

In many cases, for leisure traffic they are (if not exceeded on weekends). Revenue is not though.

 

[Llandudno]

In many cases, for leisure traffic they are (if not exceeded on weekends). Revenue is not though.

Perhaps revenue is not back to pre Covid levels due to increased delay repay payments and free travel vouchers…?

 

[startingaparty]

I can honestly the count the number of times the 0703 from Chorley to Manchester Piccadilly has run last month on the my hand. It's atrocious. To add insult to injury they cancel the 1702 on the way back on the regular too.

 

[Horizon22]

Perhaps revenue is not back to pre Covid levels due to increased delay repay payments and free travel vouchers…?

A drop in the ocean.

 

[Halwynd]

Work colleagues who use the Wigan to Southport line (which has had an atrocious 'service' for some time) and the Wigan to Liverpool service report cancellations every day, often the same trains day after day. I see the really negative cumulative effect it has on their lives, and their language and contempt for the railway, Northern in particular, is unrepeatable on this forum.

I was nearly daft enough to consider using Northern for a half-hour journey to Southport the other day for work purposes but quickly came to my senses... When I arrived home I checked to see how my intended trains ran; the outward service was cancelled, which would have resulted in a delay of almost and hour, the return service had also been cancelled (both previous evening timetable cancellations), and the next train half an hour later was delayed by 20 minutes awaiting traincrew.

I know it depends on where you live, but here in the North West, as a regular rail user since the early 80s, the service has never been as utterly dreadful as it is today. All my life I have recommended the railway to others, but these days I would be embarrassed to do so - I would probably be laughed at or subject to ridicule.

There is a solution - first a change of government and attitude, an end to this immensely damaging strike and other union action, then a railway that is better structured with overall leadership - a 'BR Chairman' who will fight the railway's corner in public and with government (Peter Parker and Bob Reid 1) - and that the poor or mediochre senior railway management that exists today is gradually stripped out. As an optimist I live in hope and look forward to the day I have the confidence and will to start using the railway again.

 

[trover]

Perhaps revenue is not back to pre Covid levels due to increased delay repay payments and free travel vouchers…?

They don’t even pay out DR for planned cancellations.

 

[northernchris]

I know it depends on where you live, but here in the North West, as a regular rail user since the early 80s, the service has never been as utterly dreadful as it is today. All my life I have recommended the railway to others, but these days I would be embarrassed to do so - I would probably be laughed at or subject to ridicule.

Absolutely, it's an appalling mess at the moment. Disappointingly there appears to be no accountability, and I feel until the senior management at Northern are removed, nothing will change. There's a worrying trend of last trains being cancelled too - looking at Leeds for example tonight the last trains to Skipton, Ilkley and Doncaster are cancelled with no advice being offered on JourneyCheck as to what the options are.

They don’t even pay out DR for planned cancellations.

Getting them to pay out for an unplanned cancellation is also a challenge! Arriva used to offer free journey vouchers when travelling on PTE products, now it's nothing.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Absolutely, it's an appalling mess at the moment. Disappointingly there appears to be no accountability, and I feel until the senior management at Northern are removed, nothing will change. There's a worrying trend of last trains being cancelled too - looking at Leeds for example tonight the last trains to Skipton, Ilkley and Doncaster are cancelled with no advice being offered on JourneyCheck as to what the options are.



Getting them to pay out for an unplanned cancellation is also a challenge! Arriva used to offer free journey vouchers when travelling on PTE products, now it's nothing.

I'm afraid it's typical for Northern to cancel the last trains from Sheffield too. The last train from Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe has been cancelled for the last four nights. No options are given for tonight's cancellation. I agree on accountabilty - it's time for the politicians to step in.

 

[Fisherman80]

The really annoying thing is cancellations or alterations during a journey with Northern. Bingley to Whitehaven is a route I use regularly. I can board the Carlisle train at Bingley and the Northern app will say there are no problems on the Cumbrian Coast line. 2 hours and 20 minutes later and I'm in Carlisle and suprise suprise my train to Whitehaven has been cancelled.
Another route I ALWAYS seem have problems with is Manchester to Southport or Headbolt Lane.
Whether its a 769 breaking down or in the case of yesterday my train to Headbolt Lane was terminated at Wigan Wallgate with no reason given.
No accountability whatsoever.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

my train to Headbolt Lane was terminated at Wigan Wallgate with no reason given.

In case you hadn't checked RTT, it was Train Crew (no surprise there).

Screenshot from Realtime trains showing the following:
2K68 1219 Blackburn to Wigan Wallgate
Departing on 3rd November 2023
This service is partially cancelled
This service was cancelled between Wigan Wallgate and Headbolt Lane due to an issue with the train crew (TG).

 

[syorksdeano]

I'm afraid it's typical for Northern to cancel the last trains from Sheffield too. The last train from Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe has been cancelled for the last four nights. No options are given for tonight's cancellation. I agree on accountabilty - it's time for the politicians to step in.

They have a habit of cancelling the other way as well.

 

[geoffk]

There is a solution - first a change of government and attitude, an end to this immensely damaging strike and other union action, then a railway that is better structured with overall leadership - a 'BR Chairman' who will fight the railway's corner in public and with government (Peter Parker and Bob Reid 1) - and that the poor or mediocre senior railway management that exists today is gradually stripped out. As an optimist I live in hope and look forward to the day I have the confidence and will to start using the railway again.

And remove civil servants entirely from involvement in day-to-day operational detail. They are, by definition, not specialists but "generalists" (as are Ministers, of course).

 

[Halwynd]

And remove civil servants entirely from involvement in day-to-day operational detail. They are, by definition, not specialists but "generalists" (as are Ministers, of course).

Yes, indeed - there are that many involved in this sorry mess I had forgotten the DfT.

I agree with others too on lack of accountability... we now have the ridiculous situation whereby the most senior railway managers are happily doing the governments bidding (ticket office closures being just the latest example) and reporting to civil servants at the DfT who haven't a clue how to run the railway.

....and I feel until the senior management at Northern are removed, nothing will change.

I agree... looking at the career backgrounds of Northern's senior management team you can clearly see the lack of long-term operational railway experience. Their Chief Operating Officer has a background with North West Water, United Utilities and Manchester Airport, and before taking up this position had no railway experience at all. Those who might once have been described as 'career railwaymen' have engineering backgrounds.

 

[Phil56]

There's a worrying trend of last trains being cancelled too - looking at Leeds for example tonight the last trains to Skipton, Ilkley and Doncaster are cancelled with no advice being offered on JourneyCheck as to what the options are.

My son has been caught several times in his first two months of working in Leeds, by the cancellation of the last train from Leeds to Bentham. Bad enough that the "last" train is ridiculously early at only 19:18! Once, the departure board changed to "delayed" to 21:05 - I knew they'd not run it that late and told him to ask station staff - they assured him it would run! Surprise, surprise, it changed to cancelled around 20:30 after he and other passengers had been sat around on the station waiting. Of course, no rail replacement buses and they refused to pay for taxis. Then people wonder why cars are so popular. Son has now bought a car and drives instead!

 

[Peterthegreat]

Yes, indeed - there are that many involved in this sorry mess I had forgotten the DfT.

I agree with others too on lack of accountability... we now have the ridiculous situation whereby the most senior railway managers are happily doing the governments bidding (ticket office closures being just the latest example) and reporting to civil servants at the DfT who haven't a clue how to run the railway.



I agree... looking at the career backgrounds of Northern's senior management team you can clearly see the lack of long-term operational railway experience. Their Chief Operating Officer has a background with North West Water, United Utilities and Manchester Airport, and before taking up this position had no railway experience at all. Those who might once have been described as 'career railwaymen' have engineering backgrounds.

The current CEO COO is the MD designate. I believe she will take over when the current MD steps down in the New Year.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I was in a pub last night near a train station that had a departure board, it was sort of fun just watching all the cancelled and delayed trains. I suspect some of these trains are not being run simply because it is cheaper not to regardless of any financial penalty.

 

[richfoz84]

There is no financial penalty so it’s easy to cancel services with no punishment.

There’s also no rest day working agreement and lots of sickness, so services just get cancelled and management don’t really care as it’s below the average cancellation figure they’re striving to achieve!

Why strive to improve your service when there is no pressure to do so ?!

 

[TheSmiths82]

There is no financial penalty so it’s easy to cancel services with no punishment.

There’s also no rest day working agreement and lots of sickness, so services just get cancelled and management don’t really care as it’s below the average cancellation figure they’re striving to achieve!

Why strive to improve your service when there is no pressure to do so ?!

I think this is what has to change, they should be fined the average revenue for that service for each train that fails to run. They would soon sort of their recruitment problems then!

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think this is what has to change, they should be fined the average revenue for that service for each train that fails to run. They would soon sort of their recruitment problems then!

Who is ‘they’? Who would be issuing the fines? Northern is part of Directly Operated Railways, effectively part of the DfT.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Who is ‘they’? Who would be issuing the fines? Northern is part of Directly Operated Railways, effectively part of the DfT.

That is part of the issue, and perhaps a bit of a conflict of interest when the government end up running TOCs, however that is not saying I support privatisation. Perhaps there needs to be a separate body who has the power to fine the DFT and TOCs but then that would be complicating an already over complicated system.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I think this is what has to change, they should be fined the average revenue for that service for each train that fails to run. They would soon sort of their recruitment problems then!

You could recruit 1000 drivers tomorrow but none be in a position to drive solo and run services for at least a year!

 

[Ianigsy]

Absolutely, it's an appalling mess at the moment. Disappointingly there appears to be no accountability, and I feel until the senior management at Northern are removed, nothing will change. There's a worrying trend of last trains being cancelled too - looking at Leeds for example tonight the last trains to Skipton, Ilkley and Doncaster are cancelled with no advice being offered on JourneyCheck as to what the options are.



Getting them to pay out for an unplanned cancellation is also a challenge! Arriva used to offer free journey vouchers when travelling on PTE products, now it's nothing.

They can count themselves very lucky not to have had several hundred angry and somewhat intoxicated people on the concourse at Leeds last night. The last bus from Leeds to Ilkley is at 2155 on a Saturday.

Even a message to say “Please check your return journey when setting out as we may not be able to run a full service after 9pm” would be some acknowledgement of the problem.

 

[northernchris]

The current CEO is the MD designate. I believe she will take over when the current MD steps down in the New Year.

Things will only get worse, she seems to be a big part of the problem.

My son has been caught several times in his first two months of working in Leeds, by the cancellation of the last train from Leeds to Bentham. Bad enough that the "last" train is ridiculously early at only 19:18! Once, the departure board changed to "delayed" to 21:05 - I knew they'd not run it that late and told him to ask station staff - they assured him it would run! Surprise, surprise, it changed to cancelled around 20:30 after he and other passengers had been sat around on the station waiting. Of course, no rail replacement buses and they refused to pay for taxis. Then people wonder why cars are so popular. Son has now bought a car and drives instead!

It's disappointing Northern feel this is acceptable. If replacement buses were unavailable you would think advising passengers to make their way to Skipton then refunding taxi expenses from there would be a reasonable compromise.

They can count themselves very lucky not to have had several hundred angry and somewhat intoxicated people on the concourse at Leeds last night. The last bus from Leeds to Ilkley is at 2155 on a Saturday.

Even a message to say “Please check your return journey when setting out as we may not be able to run a full service after 9pm” would be some acknowledgement of the problem.

Indeed, adding messages to the app/TVMs would be helpful. I also hope the station staff had support from management and weren't left to sort out the mess on their own.