Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December

[Train_manager]

Actually that's only part of the story.

Convenience stores can open longer. The likes of Co-op and Sainsburys have reduced shop floor space in some central stores so that they can open until late on Sundays. Also they don't have to do 10-4. Some shopping centres open later, so they can remain open later e.g. 10:30-16:30 and the act doesn't prevent stores opening early for 'browsing' with the checkouts opening at 10am on the dot. So it's possible a retail store may want workers to do a full length shift for Sunday.

The opt out was really for those who had a religious reason and the rules are different for retail workers who've signed a new employment contract since the mid-90s (00s for betting shops in Northern Ireland), with 3 months notice required to opt-out in some cases - https://www.gov.uk/sunday-working

Really don't want to go off topic.

But I do need to correct you. As all shop workers have the right to opt out of Sunday working.

Its in the link you provided. I've quoted it below. And yes you are required to give the correct notice.

"Opting out of Sunday working​

All shop and betting shop workers can opt out of Sunday working unless Sunday is the only day they have been employed to work on. They can opt out of Sunday working at any time, even if they agreed to it in their contract."

I was probably the only person in the UK that had ever done it.

 

[Horizon22]

Really don't want to go off topic.

But I do need to correct you. As all shop workers have the right to opt out of Sunday working.

Its in the link you provided. I've quoted it below. And yes you are required to give the correct notice.

"Opting out of Sunday working​

All shop and betting shop workers can opt out of Sunday working unless Sunday is the only day they have been employed to work on. They can opt out of Sunday working at any time, even if they agreed to it in their contract."

I was probably the only person in the UK that had ever done it.

Regards of the laws and rules, it’s now frankly IMO ridiculous antiquated way of determining rostering in a public transport industry (or in fact any industry/employer which doesn’t work the standard 9-5 M-F).

At some point someone will have to bite the bullet on the costs as it’s a matter of if not when. Otherwise these threads will come up again and again and again. I expect the next one will be some time around Easter 2024 and then the next warm
Summer weekend we have!

 

[renegademaster]

income tax system is now so complicated you need to monitor earnings very carefully and ensure you don't earn over the different thresholds which can lead to eyewatering marginal tax rates.

This is not how income tax works
You'll never be worse off for getting paid more, you only get taxed on what is over the threshold

 

[Topological]

This is not how income tax works
You'll never be worse off for getting paid more, you only get taxed on what is over the threshold

Off topic again, but to be fair there are cases where you do need to watch income.

Income tax itself will never cause you to pay more tax, even if you went over a 99% rate threshold you would still get 1p for every £1 additional (ignoring National Insurance here)

However, where there are allowances based on income it can be very easy to tip over a threshold that stops the allowance. That can create horrible marginal rates.

I do not know where those boundaries are relative to individual guards situations, but I can imagine there are some being wary about tipping over.

 

[whoosh]

Actually you’ll find many NHS functions almost shut down at weekends, and AIUI many NHS staff are also paid an enhanced rate for Sundays and public holidays.

NHS:
Between 'time +60%' and 'time +94%' for Sundays and Bank Holidays depending what pay band (lower pay bands have larger enhancements).
Between 'time +30%' and 'time +47%' for Saturdays, and also any "unsocial hours" on weekdays which means after 20:00 or before 06:00. If more than half a shift falls within unsocial hours, then the whole shift is paid at the enhanced unsocial hours rate.

This is for ordinary shifts, not overtime. Although of course, in any newspaper comparison, any of this won't be mentioned.

Overtime is 'time +50%' except on public holidays when it is 'time +100%'.

I thought the RMT had agreed a pay deal that takes them through to April 2024. ASLEF haven't but it sounds like their members will be turning up tomorrow, only to find there's no guards to accompany them.

No.
RMT have agreed 2022's pay deal to be 5% no strings.
2023's pay deal will be negotiated early in 2024 on a TOC by TOC basis, and there may be various changes to terms and conditions at the individual TOCs as part of that negotiation. It hasn't been done yet.

 

[Horizon22]

I do not know where those boundaries are relative to individual guards situations, but I can imagine there are some being wary about tipping over.

The £50K-60K is a big one to be wary of for childcare, although I’d say that would take a reasonable amount of overtime for most guards, although not all at perhaps the better paid TOCs

 

[northwichcat]

But I do need to correct you. As all shop workers have the right to opt out of Sunday working.

I didn't say only those who are religious have the right. However, the intention behind the law was to respect those who felt it was against their religion to work on a Sunday. Remember over 30 years ago there were more churches and a lot more people attending them. A different law prevents discrimination based on religion. That works both ways though, so an atheist has the same workers rights as a Christian.

Having a mass Christmas Day shut down relates to religious reasons, but you don't need to be a church-attending Christian to benefit from it.

 

[Jimini]

The £50K-60K is a big one to be wary of for childcare, although I’d say that would take a reasonable amount of overtime for most guards, although not all at perhaps the better paid TOCs

Same with £100k, childcare falls off a cliff, plus you enter the "60%" tax band until you hit £125.1k when the tapering stops and you hit 45%. Anyway, way off topic, sorry!

 

[Starmill]

Not sure there are enough replacement buses in the North West of England to cover this, and ticket acceptance with TfW would cover only a fraction of the problem.

Even if this were true, are you suggesting that this is a justification for doing... nothing? Really?

In addition, it manifestly isn't true. As the advice would continue to be not to travel there would only need to be roughly five or six services at one or two hour intervals per route, plus some standbys and minibuses . All duties would be finished by around 1900 at their latest. As such we're talking tens and certainly not three figures worth of buses. In other words a totally ordinary number for serious disruption.

Ticket acceptance with TfW, Blackpool Transport, Bee Network (all modes) Stagecoach Manchester, Stagecoach Cumbria & North Lancashire and Stagecoach Merseyside & South Lancashire would cover a substantial proportion of the problem. TPE may also be running some services. Now you're correct to say that they may not all be possible and there would still be gaps of course. But can you explain why you're presenting that as a justification for doing nothing?

 

[Sleepy]

Well it's not like it's a surprise to anyone that conductors (of the relevant conditions) aren't obliged to work on Sundays is it? It has been known for weeks there'll be next to no volunteers. It's also not like there's a shortage of replacement bus drivers on the morning of Christmas Eve either. There'd only be a need for four or five services given the do not travel message would stand. Also this bus work could have been booked months ago, it was very predictable.


Er, it's been known about for several years I'd suggest. Nobody in their right mind would imagine conductors (of the relevant conditions) would work on Sunday when it's Christmas Eve in anything like the required number.

So why aren't Northern using Managers and others as contingency Guards as other TOC would if it was a strike day ?

 

[LowLevel]

So why aren't Northern using Managers and others as contingency Guards as other TOC would if it was a strike day ?

They aren't obliged to work on a Sunday either. Some might if they want the money but generally speaking, nope!

 

[43066]

Competent management arranges crews weeks in advance. If they have not sufficient staff to cover their contractual obligation then hire more. Or as a last resort you know weeks in advance not a day two before.

incompetent management.

You can’t hire more, so you’d need to (with plenty of notice) ask for volunteers and incentivise people to come forward. But yes, clearly that should have been done.

They aren't obliged to work on a Sunday either. Some might if they want the money but generally speaking, nope!

Presumably they’d expect to be offered a lot more than £100, too!

 

[bramling]

So why aren't Northern using Managers and others as contingency Guards as other TOC would if it was a strike day ?

Would they want to work? Are they obliged to?

 

[Sleepy]

Would they want to work? Are they obliged to?

At certain TOCs most Managers have to do whatever they're told to !!

 

[Meerkat]

Bring Sundays in - push the cost through to fare rises on Northern.

 

[modernrail]

Obviously £100 isn’t to cut it! The ‘perfect storm’ having been written into the calendar since the 16th century was always going to need a bigger incentive for contracts that are out of date.

It seems like there are plenty of non-antagonistic methods to get those contracts into a better place and from what some have said, there would be plenty of people available this Sunday if that process had started some time ago.

But that isn’t where we are so you are into proper meaningful bonus territory. I don’t see why people shouldn’t get a bonus for working on Christmas Eve. It’s technically a working day for all workers contractually bound to work that day, but even then we have a tradition of sloping off early. It is not a big deal to offer a meaningful bonus for that one day. Maybe £250-£350. A Goodwill payment for helping all folks up north, particularly those who can’t afford or have taken a decision not to have a car to get where they need to be.

So who is it who has stopped that sort of pragmatic solution. Northern or their Tory paymasters?

You can’t ignore the political dimension in all of this whichever way you look at it, because the DfT is both the owner and the operator of the northern railway. The current Government has very purposefully decided not to (go through with its own idea) to create an arms length operations company to oversee operational decision making. So either this is incompetence at Northern, or they are being prevented from making a sensible operational decision by their line manager, the DfT (under the political control of a Tory Minister).

 

[northwichcat]

Bring Sundays in - push the cost through to fare rises on Northern.

The regulated fare increase amount has already been set for next year. It's also not fair to ask Northern passengers to pay a premium for guards agreeing to work Sundays, if that increases fares above levels for travelling on other operators. That's especially the case on routes where Northern passengers are already subjected to some of the oldest diesel rolling stock on the UK network, or where Northern offer a slower service than an alternative operator.

 

[modernrail]

The regulated fare increase amount has already been set for next year. It's also not fair to ask Northern passengers to pay a premium for guards agreeing to work Sundays, if that increases fares above levels for travelling on other operators. That's especially the case on routes where Northern passengers are already subjected to some of the oldest diesel rolling stock on the UK network, or where Northern offer a slower service than an alternative operator.

Perhaps it could be funded out of the commission we have for some reason decided we are just handing to Trainline and Uber for the rest of time. What is that likely to be as we reach mostly digital ticketing, enough to pay the cost of Sunday coming in properly?

 

[Starmill]

The regulated fare increase amount has already been set for next year. It's also not fair to ask Northern passengers to pay a premium for guards agreeing to work Sundays, if that increases fares above levels for travelling on other operators. That's especially the case on routes where Northern passengers are already subjected to some of the oldest diesel rolling stock on the UK network, or where Northern offer a slower service than an alternative operator.

It's also a non-sequiteur. Putting through high than standard price rises for a service which is falling apart and in ill repute may not lead to an actual increase in revenue, or enable any reduction in cost.

 

[Topological]

Perhaps it could be funded out of the commission we have for some reason decided we are just handing to Trainline and Uber for the rest of time. What is that likely to be as we reach mostly digital ticketing, enough to pay the cost of Sunday coming in properly?

Sorry for my ignorance. When we buy tickets on Northern (say) are we paying commission to Trainline?

I wont use any website which charges a booking fee or wants to take a percentage of the fare. Again off-topic though.

Either reliable Sunday working creates income* and therefore can be justified, or the Sunday service needs to be revised downwards so the numbers add up. Either way the balance needs striking between the benefits of bringing Sundays inside the week, and the cost.

* The income might simply be because people are willing to buy flexible tickets for journeys that start on Friday and have the return portion on Saturday, but where the traveller feels better that returning Sunday will not be too much hardship if needed. Travel itself does not need to be on Sunday for a Sunday option to create demand.

 

[Starmill]

Sorry for my ignorance. When we buy tickets on Northern (say) are we paying commission to Trainline?

I wont use any website which charges a booking fee or wants to take a percentage of the fare. Again off-topic though.

Either reliable Sunday working creates income* and therefore can be justified, or the Sunday service needs to be revised downwards so the numbers add up. Either way the balance needs striking between the benefits of bringing Sundays inside the week, and the cost.

* The income might simply be because people are willing to buy flexible tickets for journeys that start on Friday and have the return portion on Saturday, but where the traveller feels better that returning Sunday will not be too much hardship if needed. Travel itself does not need to be on Sunday for a Sunday option to create demand.

All retailers of tickets are due a commission in some proportion with the value of their sales, yes, whether online, by phone or in person at a ticket office or travel agent.

 

[geoffk]

Might be down to differences in contract. Committed on East compared to voluntary on West. But yes either way it will likely cause some resentment

Correct me (someone outside the industry) if I'm wrong, but doesn't "committed Sundays" mean compulsory overtime, i.e. hours over and above the 4 days in 6?

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps it could be funded out of the commission we have for some reason decided we are just handing to Trainline and Uber for the rest of time. What is that likely to be as we reach mostly digital ticketing, enough to pay the cost of Sunday coming in properly?

I don't buy from sites that have booking fees. However, with any technology remember there are people required to develop it and maintain it. Just like you need to pay people to build trains and then pay people to maintain them.

 

[Topological]

All retailers of tickets are due a commission in some proportion with the value of their sales, yes, whether online, by phone or in person at a ticket office or travel agent.

Thank you

Though presumably when buying from Northern it is Northern who get the commission.

I do not like the idea I have to give a proportion of online purchases to the Trainline or Uber (though I feel that might be because they do boats in London rather than train fares).

It is of course possible that those companies patent a part of the platform that allows them to charge rent for others using the booking system.

I don't buy from sites that have booking fees. However, with any technology remember there are people required to develop it and maintain it. Just like you need to pay people to build trains and then pay people to maintain them.

Yes. It was just the suggestion that it was Trainline or Uber taking the money that I didnt think was right. It actually confuses me that anyone buys from sites with booking fees when there are others which do not charge booking fees.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes. It was just the suggestion that it was Trainline or Uber taking the money that I didnt think was right. It actually confuses me that anyone buys from sites with booking fees when there are others which do not charge booking fees.

It's down to marketing. The Trainline advertise that you can buy in advance for any train operator. Individual operators haven't successfully managed to convince average Joe that a Manchester to London ticket can be purchased from LNER or GWR, just like it can be purchased from Avanti. Average Joe doesn't want to sign up for an account with every operator they may wish to travel with. Some business people, in particular, will see the booking fee as better value than the time taken to sign up on another site.

 

[Class 170101]

One thing I've noticed in my little corner of the railway, as someone who has to arrange cover for sickness out-of-hours as an on call manager, is that staff are generally a lot more reluctant to do overtime shifts than they used to be twenty years ago. Willingness to work overtime was gradually reducing over the last ten years but has plummeted off a cliff since Covid. In 2003 you would always find someone to cover a shift at short notice but these days it's usually touch and go, as person after person either doesn't answer their phone or turns it down flat. There are still a few greedy grabbers who would cheerfully sell their own grandparents for a 12 hour Sunday but for the most part a lot of staff aren't really bothered for overtime and would rather just have their days off instead.

Years ago railwaymen in the wages grades needed to work a few rest days or Sundays to bulk up their payslip at the end of the month but as railway industry wages have increased the relative value of overtime has decreased - quite simply a lot of staff don't see the point when most of their overtime money goes to the tax man. I think that Covid made people realise that there's more to life than working. In particular, quality time with the family around christmas has a value greater than money.

The solution to this problem is to bring Sunday inside the working week. This, of course, would require increased staff numbers and a significant pay increase so it's very unlikely to happen under this government!

Very good post and this is the root of the problem for tomorrows issues.

Completely the wrong approach - and now it shows. Either mandate the necessary hours in the contract, or force the TOC employees to put skin in the game.

Privatise the TOCs properly with the government / LA as the contractor, with penalties for not delivering on the timetable or on quality. But unlike the last 20yrs, TOCs would be modelled more like FOCs and can actually fail. No government backing for pensions. If the TOC fails, then everybody loses their shirt and their pension above the minimum state guarantee. Just like what should have happened to NatWest in 2009.

A failed TOC can be replaced but only by a new / different business, with no continuity / guarantee of employment for those in the one that failed.

Leave people's pensions alone!!! Remember pensions transfer between owning TOCs why should anyone with a pension who no longer works for that firm either as a retiree or moved firms be liable for a loss of pension and / or contributions? It also raises the spectre of people not saving for pensions knowing they could lose it all and thast creates a wider societal problem of how to manage older people in retirement - it effectively puts even more pressure on the State.

 

[northwichcat]

Ticket acceptance for tickets dated 24 December to be allowed to be used today only applies on Northern services. So if you have a ticket for, say, Shrewsbury to Sandbach, you can use it for Crewe-Sandbach today but have to wait until tomorrow to use it between Shrewsbury and Crewe!

 

[43066]

You can’t ignore the political dimension in all of this whichever way you look at it, because the DfT is both the owner and the operator of the northern railway. The current Government has very purposefully decided not to (go through with its own idea) to create an arms length operations company to oversee operational decision making. So either this is incompetence at Northern, or they are being prevented from making a sensible operational decision by their line manager, the DfT (under the political control of a Tory Minister).

This is a good post.

I’m afraid politics is indeed at the heart of the matter. There’s a certain irony that the same government claiming to be bringing in minimum service levels “to protect passengers”, is perfectly happy to preside over this utter farce with an operator the DfT directly controls. That rather exposes their true motivations here, which are more about generating headlines and appealing to their voter base than meaningfully improving anything.

Similarly the complaints from the RDG about working practices (we’ve seen this in relation to Northern and the AWC disruption due to crewing issues). Well those working practices can only realistically be changed through negotiation with the relevant unions, but again the government has thus far actively prevented that process.

I’m not trying to turn this discussion to the industrial dispute, but the intransigent stance of the government underpins so many of the issues on the network at the moment that it’s something of an elephant in the room!

 

[Starmill]

Leave people's pensions alone!!! Remember pensions transfer between owning TOCs why should anyone with a pension who no longer works for that firm either as a retiree or moved firms be liable for a loss of pension and / or contributions? It also raises the spectre of people not saving for pensions knowing they could lose it all and thast creates a wider societal problem of how to manage older people in retirement - it effectively puts even more pressure on the State.

In reality contributions which have already been made pension are really quite safe given the regulatory position. Even if the firm collapsed outright and had to be liquidated, the payments into the scheme would likely be up to date and protection would be reasonable, as most sections are in an OK funding position. There may be a few in an uneviable position here.

Unfortunately the same can't be said of future contributions.

 

[modernrail]

This is a good post.

I’m afraid politics is indeed at the heart of the matter. There’s a certain irony that the same government claiming to be bringing in minimum service levels “to protect passengers”, is perfectly happy to preside over this utter farce with an operator the DfT directly controls. That rather exposes their true motivations here, which are more about generating headlines and appealing to their voter base than meaningfully improving anything.

Similarly the complaints from the RDG about working practices (we’ve seen this in relation to Northern and the AWC disruption due to crewing issues). Well those working practices can only realistically be changed through negotiation with the relevant unions, but again the government has thus far actively prevented that process.

I’m not trying to turn this discussion to the industrial dispute, but the intransigent stance of the government underpins so many of the issues on the network at the moment that it’s something of an elephant in the room!

Thanks 43066. I too am not trying to be overtly political. It is the current Government that is seeking to do that by being extremely two faced when it comes to almost everything to do with this issue.

If you want to isolate the source of the Nile, in terms of the general falling apart of reliability across the north, it is increasingly unskilled and incompetent Tory Minister’s daily edicts to the DfT. They are playing games - and people should not fall for it. They should be angry about it and make it clear they are angry about it. They absolutely want you all to get into a circular blame game between public ownership and the unions. They absolutely want you to see valuable income leaking to Trainline and Uber as normal and a good thing. They genuinely don’t have the first clue about how to run a railway (why would they) but they genuinely hate the idea that it is not them running the railway, or handing out pothole cash. Activities that in modern countries is undertaken by things like transport companies and municipalities. We don’t live in a modern country when it comes to the railways.