SWR Class 458 to be retained

[antharro]

What is stopping these from entering service? Presumably all drivers/ guards are already trained as these units have operated in 4/5/8/10 car formation over the years.

See posts 2114 and 2130.

 

[Goldfish62]

See posts 2114 and 2130.

Now of course if the original seats and covers, plus lino flooring were retained that wouldn't be a saloon refurbishment so ASLEF's aspirations wouldn't apply and the trains could enter service.

 

[adc82140]

This really is pathetic. I won't be drawn on sides, as both are to blame.

ASLEF- perhaps should seek constructive resolution on this, seek a commitment for cab improvements in a specific time frame, but allow them in to service in the mean time.

The DfT- just get on and authorise new seat covers for the cabs and a deep clean/coat of paint. It's not going to break the bank.

 

[wickham]

Monty in Post 2187 says that the removed trailers are being stored for spares, but is it known WHERE they are being stored ?
The first two done were removed at Long Marston and presumably are still stored there, but what about subsequent removals - I can't see them cluttering up the place at Widnes !

 

[43096]

Monty in Post 2187 says that the removed trailers are being stored for spares, but is it known WHERE they are being stored ?
The first two done were removed at Long Marston and presumably are still stored there, but what about subsequent removals - I can't see them cluttering up the place at Widnes !

They've gone to Long Marston - as you'd expect.

 

[Goldfish62]

This really is pathetic. I won't be drawn on sides, as both are to blame.

ASLEF- perhaps should seek constructive resolution on this, seek a commitment for cab improvements in a specific time frame, but allow them in to service in the mean time.

The DfT- just get on and authorise new seat covers for the cabs and a deep clean/coat of paint. It's not going to break the bank.

I wonder what cab improvements are being carried out on the 165s and Pendolinos which are also currently being refurbished...

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder what cab improvements are being carried out on the 165s and Pendolinos which are also currently being refurbished...

They aren't being reformed.

 

[adc82140]

They aren't being reformed.

I don't remember a demand for a cab refurbishment when the Pendolinos were increased in length to 11 cars.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They aren't being reformed.

You’d think they were getting major transformational work done. If we’re ignoring refurbishments, all that’s happening is a non-standard carriage is being taken out.

ASLEF’s stubbornness here is poor - were there not a major delay to the 701s, which has now just been worsened by the sudden RMT decision - then perhaps it would be fair enough, but as it stands, they’re refusing to allow into service the one train type that could bring the Windsor lines from their knees until the other union allows us long-suffering SWR victims our much delayed Aventras.

 

[SWT_USER]

You’d think they were getting major transformational work done. If we’re ignoring refurbishments, all that’s happening is a non-standard carriage is being taken out.

ASLEF’s stubbornness here is poor - were there not a major delay to the 701s, which has now just been worsened by the sudden RMT decision - then perhaps it would be fair enough, but as it stands, they’re refusing to allow into service the one train type that could bring the Windsor lines from their knees until the other union allows us long-suffering SWR victims our much delayed Aventras.

I don't think it's Aslef stubbornness. They are absolutely right to want modifications to their working environment if the passenger areas are also being refurbished.

What is amazing is that SWR management haven't done anything about it. Just as they still haven't agreed how the 701's are to be worked, years after they were due to enter service. It's an absolute clown show.

 

[pompeyfan]

I wonder what cab improvements are being carried out on the 165s and Pendolinos which are also currently being refurbished...

I can’t speak for the Pendos, but the turbos aren’t really a refurbishment. I’ve seen the 458s and it’s night and day from how they were. It’s a really good job but a shame there is a lot of doubt they’ll ever carry passengers because the DfT won’t release the funds.

I don't think it's Aslef stubbornness. They are absolutely right to want modifications to their working environment if the passenger areas are also being refurbished.

What is amazing is that SWR management haven't done anything about it. Just as they still haven't agreed how the 701's are to be worked, years after they were due to enter service. It's an absolute clown show.

SWR always had their planned method of work for them once ASLEF insisted a guard was on every passenger train. The disagreement was minor and shouldn’t cause further issues, and should be in service before February.

 

[TEW]

You’d think they were getting major transformational work done. If we’re ignoring refurbishments, all that’s happening is a non-standard carriage is being taken out.

ASLEF’s stubbornness here is poor - were there not a major delay to the 701s, which has now just been worsened by the sudden RMT decision - then perhaps it would be fair enough, but as it stands, they’re refusing to allow into service the one train type that could bring the Windsor lines from their knees until the other union allows us long-suffering SWR victims our much delayed Aventras.

The RMT have no objections to the 701s entering service.

And SWR have no plans to introduce the 458s in to service, hence they haven't even looked in to what cab refurbishments are required.

 

[Goldfish62]

I can’t speak for the Pendos, but the turbos aren’t really a refurbishment.

Of course it's a refurbishment! The interiors have been completely repainted, grab rails recoated, flooring renewed, new seat foam and new seat covers.

As for the Pendos, all of the above plus completely new seats and a reconfigured shop/buffet.

And SWR have no plans to introduce the 458s in to service, hence they haven't even looked in to what cab refurbishments are required.

I'm surprised that hasn't got into the media yet, because when it does imagine the outrage!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If the Pendolino changes don't constitute a refurbishment, with completely different seats and a totally different new shop, I don't know what does.

 

[Snow1964]

Of course it's a refurbishment! The interiors have been completely repainted, grab rails recoated, flooring renewed, new seat foam and new seat covers.

As for the Pendos, all of the above plus completely new seats and a reconfigured shop/buffet.

There tends to be a bit of casual swapping of terminology by some people between refreshed, renovated and refurbished

The 165, 166s are being refreshed

A refresh is livening up and boosting condition
A renovation is restoring to good usable condition
A refurbishment is enhancing to increase value or lifespan

Routine repainting, and renewing worn flooring and covers is not refurbishing

 

[Goldfish62]

There tends to be a bit of casual swapping of terminology by some people between refreshed, renovated and refurbished

The 165, 166s are being refreshed

A refresh is livening up and boosting condition
A renovation is restoring to good usable condition
A refurbishment is enhancing to increase value or lifespan

Routine repainting, and renewing worn flooring and covers is not refurbishing

Fine, then TOCs can therefore say every time that their trains are being refreshed rather than refurbished and therefore ASLEF's aspirations don't apply!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There tends to be a bit of casual swapping of terminology by some people between refreshed, renovated and refurbished

The 165, 166s are being refreshed

A refresh is livening up and boosting condition
A renovation is restoring to good usable condition
A refurbishment is enhancing to increase value or lifespan

Routine repainting, and renewing worn flooring and covers is not refurbishing

Let’s face it though, in casual discussions outside of the workplace or on a forum, everyone just says “refurbished,” and it doesn’t really matter that they do either.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't think it's Aslef stubbornness. They are absolutely right to want modifications to their working environment if the passenger areas are also being refurbished.

What is amazing is that SWR management haven't done anything about it. Just as they still haven't agreed how the 701's are to be worked, years after they were due to enter service. It's an absolute clown show.

No they're not.

if the drivers areas are unacceptable or unsafe, then yes they should be updated, but it shouldn't follow that cabs are automatically updated when PAYING passenger areas are. Passengers are customers, just as if they were on other modes of transport or in pubs or restaurants. If a restaurant replaces its tables and chairs, it doesn't follow that the kitchens are done at the same time if they are perfectly adequate.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No they're not.

if the drivers areas are unacceptable or unsafe, then yes they should be updated, but it shouldn't follow that cabs are automatically updated when PAYING passenger areas are. Passengers are customers, just as if they were on other modes of transport or in pubs or restaurants. If a restaurant replaces its tables and chairs, it doesn't follow that the kitchens are done at the same time if they are perfectly adequate.

Quite.

 

[TEW]

The 458 cabs were not worked on when they were converted to 458/5s. I don't think expecting work to be done on a 20 year old environment is unreasonable. You might expect your office to touch up the paint, get some new furniture and upgrade the equipment a bit in a 20 year period. If you can afford to spend money on upgrading the area for passengers who might spent 90 minutes on the train, you can afford to spend money upgrading the environment for the drivers who might spend a 9 hour shift on the train.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 458 cabs were not worked on when they were converted to 458/5s. I don't think expecting work to be done on a 20 year old environment is unreasonable. You might expect your office to touch up the paint, get some new furniture and upgrade the equipment a bit in a 20 year period. If you can afford to spend money on upgrading the area for passengers who might spent 90 minutes on the train, you can afford to spend money upgrading the environment for the drivers who might spend a 9 hour shift on the train.

Agreed. As I've said previously on this thread I'd have thought refoaming and retrimming the drivers seat, a repaint of worn areas, overhauling the air con and fixing the water leaks is a perfectly reasonable aspiration for a mid-life refurb/refresh/whatever you like to call it.

Incidentally apart from new more durable flooring the passenger saloons weren't really refurbished with the 5 car conversion. Just seat layout reconfiguration and extra grab poles. No new seat cushions or moquette, or any internal repainting. The toilets weren't even deep-cleaned.

 

[TEW]

It was a real shame the interiors weren't really refurbished when they were converted to 458/5s. I think they would have felt like a much better train. Instead they almost immediately felt dirty. As you say, the toilets have always been especially bad.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Incidentally apart from new more durable flooring

That in itself proved a bit of a 'mare in the case of some cars, getting the old 458/0 floor material lifted that is, apparently..!

 

[Goldfish62]

That in itself proved a bit of a 'mare in the case of some cars, getting the old 458/0 floor material lifted that is, apparently..!

The old stuff was awful. Wore out really quickly and showed up dirt very easily.

 

[fgwrich]

Agreed. As I've said previously on this thread I'd have thought refoaming and retrimming the drivers seat, a repaint of worn areas, overhauling the air con and fixing the water leaks is a perfectly reasonable aspiration for a mid-life refurb/refresh/whatever you like to call it.

Incidentally apart from new more durable flooring the passenger saloons weren't really refurbished with the 5 car conversion. Just seat layout reconfiguration and extra grab poles. No new seat cushions or moquette, or any internal repainting. The toilets weren't even deep-cleaned.

It was also rather noticeable what seats had been moved or fiddled with, either from dents, damage, former grab handle positionings to former arm rest locations. It all felt like a bit of a hatched rushed job to be honest.

 

[Goldfish62]

It was also rather noticeable what seats had been moved or fiddled with, either from dents, damage, former grab handle positionings to former arm rest locations. It all felt like a bit of a hatched rushed job to be honest.

I remember Ian Walmsley saying at the time that the absolute bare minimum was done on a tight budget. Hardly the "major refurbishment" claimed in the railway press!

 

[Invincible]

This time it's a £25 million contract

Refurbishment for SWR's Class 458 trains thanks to new contract between Porterbrook and Alstom

Porterbrook has announced that South Western Railway's (SWR) fleet of Modern Railway’s ‘Golden Spanner awards’ winning Class 458 will undergo major improvements following a new deal with Alstom.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Following talks between Porterbrook and Alstom, a French railway rolling stock manufacturer, a new £25 million contract has been signed.

Carrying out the upgrades at their Widnes site in Cheshire, Alstom will complete the following changes:

1. Increasing top speed to 110mph – reducing journey times
2. Updating saloon areas – providing a better ride for customers on longer journeys
3. Altering positions of cars on each trains – increase acceleration to meet route timings

But guess most of the cost includes maintenance support by Alstom over several years rather than just the refurbishment.
3 years ago Engineering Director at SWR Neil Drury said:

“This fully refurbished fleet of 458s will provide an even better experience for our customers, while delivering efficient and flexible capacity on our medium range services.”"

From how it reads I expect SWR, Portersbrook and Alstom will want to see the units on the PDL so 450s can be redeployed elsewhere ASAP? But from posts 2114 and 2130 they did not consult with driver representatives until too late?

 

[WarrenTManager]

Routine repainting, and renewing worn flooring and covers is not refurbishing

These are generally within the scope of a C6 overhaul.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

From how it reads I expect SWR, Portersbrook and Alstom will want to see the units on the PDL so 450s can be redeployed elsewhere ASAP?

As TEW mentioned some time back, possibly on another related thread, provided the 701 fleet is introduced in full for the sub area, the Desiro's are more than adequate in number to cover the outer electric patch. There is no need for any additional fleet type, especially a small (in number) type that are cost heavy to maintain and run.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Agreed. As I've said previously on this thread I'd have thought refoaming and retrimming the drivers seat, a repaint of worn areas, overhauling the air con and fixing the water leaks is a perfectly reasonable aspiration for a mid-life refurb/refresh/whatever you like to call it.

Incidentally apart from new more durable flooring the passenger saloons weren't really refurbished with the 5 car conversion. Just seat layout reconfiguration and extra grab poles. No new seat cushions or moquette, or any internal repainting. The toilets weren't even deep-cleaned.

Drivers seat is on the C6 overhaul. About 24 have been done. Others get a C6 post Widnes. 460 HVACs were overhauled by Wabtec. Original 458 HVACs were overhauled 2016/7