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Poor pay offer to send GWR and LNER trains off the rails

riceuten

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Unite have zero regard for ordinary people and seem to take joy in wreaking havoc on peoples lives to make political points.

For all of the RMT’s flaws, they’re not remotely as militant as Unite are and actually seem to have their members as their priority rather than scoring political points.
I would say, and would argue strongly that ALL unions "have their members as their priority" - that's kind of what they are for. And you could just as easily argue that TOCs refusing to pay a living wage or an adequate pay increase are "scoring political points"
 
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jayah

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Yes as far as the contract pricing works, but beyond that the government isn’t going to instruct Hitachi not to negotiate with the union, and then use taxpayers’ funds (which are indeed unlimited, or at least uncapped) to indemnify them for losses due to IA.
They don't need indemnify although it is one reason TOC strikes go on as long as they do, even before pseudo nationalisation.

The indexation will be CPI+x or RPI, if not more, so the money should be there to settle before they start paying out for non performance.
 

DanNCL

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I would say, and would argue strongly that ALL unions "have their members as their priority" - that's kind of what they are for. And you could just as easily argue that TOCs refusing to pay a living wage or an adequate pay increase are "scoring political points"
I know of Unite members who have lost their jobs after Unite industrial action on public transport (specifically buses) has prevented them from getting to work, if you ask me that's not having their members as their priority. Off topic for this thread though so I won't discuss it any further.
 

riceuten

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I know of Unite members who have lost their jobs after Unite industrial action on public transport (specifically buses) has prevented them from getting to work, if you ask me that's not having their members as their priority. Off topic for this thread though so I won't discuss it any further.
I think an employer sacking you for not being able to get to work is more the issue here. If unions didn't inconvenience someone when they struck, nothing would ever happen.
 

Stigy

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The current inflation rate is 5.6% so whilst this offer is technically below the rate of inflation 5.5% can hardly be described as "poor". And it is pretty much in line with what many other workers are getting, so I'm not entirely sure why Unite think that Hitachi's staff are worth more.
The fact that inflation was twice that not long ago (probably when the negotiations started) and the fact that just because inflation has dropped doesn’t mean everyday living costs have reduced, it’s a mediocre offer at best.
 

anthony263

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Unite currently arguing with fellow unions over the dispute with steelworkers and TATA at port talbot steelworks. You can tell its bad as even some unite members calling the head of the union names
 

riceuten

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Unite currently arguing with fellow unions over the dispute with steelworkers and TATA at Port Talbot steelworks. You can tell its bad as even some unite members calling the head of the union names
Not entirely sure why this is relevant, to be honest, other than to do down trade unions as a whole.
 

yorkie

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I would say, and would argue strongly that ALL unions "have their members as their priority" - that's kind of what they are for...
In theory. However my union was more interested in political points than the views of it's members, so I quit the union.
 

riceuten

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In theory. However my union was more interested in political points than the views of it's members, so I quit the union.
Obviously I don't know your personal circumstances, but my union spends almost all of its time defending its members (and I know this because I've been a shop steward as well) and that includes pay increases. So the theory, for the most part, is the reality. I remember some members quitting because the union supported "remain", and that really was - as far as we were concerned - about defending all members - but the option to leave (in both cases) was there.
 

norbitonflyer

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Now in principle I would agree. However this is how capitalism works, people invest, companies spend, customers pay, investors get their money back and some. If you have a better idea as to how to finance private I'm sure plenty of people will be interested.
Despite the attitude of a certain CEO of a TOC when I tackled him on this issue (specifically that a fare increase could have been limited to RPI if the TOC didn't declare a dividend) dividends should be a reward for good performance, not an entitlement.
The old LNER never declared a dividend, and the other members of the Big Four only rarely.
 

yorkie

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Not entirely sure why this is relevant, to be honest, other than to do down trade unions as a whole.
I'm not sure what you mean by "down" trade unions? If you are trying to dismiss the fact that Unions are in decline, then that's your prerogative but the reality is undeniable.
Obviously I don't know your personal circumstances, but my union spends almost all of its time defending its members (and I know this because I've been a shop steward as well) and that includes pay increases. So the theory, for the most part, is the reality...

We will have to agree to disagree; clearly as you have been involved in unions you have a particular view that won't be compatible with my thoughts given my experiences.

In my experience, union officials aren't always good at establishing the views of ordinary workers, and/or trying to achieve good outcomes for the people who those workers work to serve.

If unions were consistently great, the majority of employees would surely be in unions, and that isn't the case; indeed union membership is falling. The rail industry is an example of a sector which is not aligned with the majority of employees.

Stating unions defend members or ask for pay increases is staying the obvious but doesn't really address the concerns I had, or the wider picture, dao doesn't demonstrate what you claim. Anyway, let's agree to disagree as there is no benefit debating this further. It's a subjective matter for which we have different views.
 

Horizon22

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If unions were consistently great, the majority of employees would surely be in unions, and that isn't the case; indeed union membership is falling. The rail industry is an example of a sector which is not aligned with the majority of employees.

Unions have their faults but I’m not sure this specifically is universally true? When RMT/ASLEF have been balloted previously over the last few years they’ve regularly achieved over 90% of a yes vote on normally well over 50% of eligible voters.
 

Krokodil

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So if, for example Hitachi staff got a well above inflation pay rise
They're not asking for an above-inflation rise, as you well know. Something that vaguely keeps up with the double-digit rise in prices would be acceptable.

that would be passed onto the customers, in this case the TOCs or leasing companies. They would then eventually pass the cost onto the end users, us poor schmucks that still use the railways.
No they won't, they're locked into contracts, the prices they charge will be determined by those contracts and is completely unrelated to negotiations with their employees. They'll have to absorb the cost. If those contracts are index-linked (and a 27 year one surely would be) then it should be fairly easy to absorb them.
 

riceuten

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I'm not sure what you mean by "down" trade unions? If you are trying to dismiss the fact that Unions are in decline, then that's your prerogative but the reality is undeniable.


We will have to agree to disagree; clearly as you have been involved in unions you have a particular view that won't be compatible with my thoughts given my experiences.

In my experience, union officials aren't always good at establishing the views of ordinary workers, and/or trying to achieve good outcomes for the people who those workers work to serve.

If unions were consistently great, the majority of employees would surely be in unions, and that isn't the case; indeed union membership is falling. The rail industry is an example of a sector which is not aligned with the majority of employees.

Stating unions defend members or ask for pay increases is staying the obvious but doesn't really address the concerns I had, or the wider picture, dao doesn't demonstrate what you claim. Anyway, let's agree to disagree as there is no benefit debating this further. It's a subjective matter for which we have different views.

Unions are not in decline in the rail industry, which, for some, is a problem, and I know there are plenty amongst them who would love to outlaw strikes altogether (which the Minimum Services Bill is a step towards). I think you are right in that we both reflect our collective experiences, but I have spoken to numerous other trade unionists who are dedicated to public service, and you must admit, of most of the unions, the rail ones are indeed the most successful in terms of defence of their workers' pay and rights. That's probably why there is a higher number of members in the rail unions than almost any other industry.
 

Goldfish62

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Not entirely sure why this is relevant, to be honest, other than to do down trade unions as a whole.
Hardly given that the other two unions involved, and who represent the vast majority of steelworkers, have criticised Unite's stance, which could jeopardise the whole future of the plant. Sharon Graham is becoming over-confident and will become unstuck if she doesn't rein it in.

But we digress.
 

Snow1964

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RMT press release

Strike from 05:59 Sat 27 Jan to 05:58 Thurs 1 Feb

19 January 2024

RMT Press Office:

RMT members at maintenance depots run by Hitachi rail will strike over 5 days next week in row over pay.

Strike action will take place at Craigentinny, Bounds Green & Doncaster maintenance depots with members at Outstations and Maintenance Control also taking action.

Unite the Union members working for Hitachi Rail will be taking strike action at the same time across the country.

Bosses at Hitachi Rail have only offered 6% - well below RPI inflation at the time.

This is despite the company making over £100m in profit last year.

RMT general secretary Mick Lynch said: "Workers at Hitachi Rail do a range of highly skilled work ensuring that trains and infrastructure are all working properly.

"However, bosses at the multi-million pound company are undervaluing their own staff by being greedy and not offering a decent pay rise.

"This sustained action by Hitachi Rail workers will send a clear message to the company that we will not rest until we get a negotiated settlement on pay, that rewards our members sufficiently."

Unite general secretary Sharon Graham said: “Hitachi is making enormous profits in the UK and yet it is trying to short change our members with this real-terms pay cut.

“These workers are highly skilled and perform a safety critical role and yet are being chronically undervalued by their employer. Hitachi need to know our members won’t stand for such penny pinching as they head to the picket line.”

END

 
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ainsworth74

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The press release is dated today, 19th January. It's only eight days until 27th. How do you reckon that's two weeks notice?
The legal requirement is that notice be given to the employer not that it be made publicly.
 

trainophile

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My mistake then. However I would have thought the whole point of the two weeks notice is to inform the general public who might be affected by such actions. Otherwise we could rock up at a station to be told "sorry there's no trains today, strike action... oh we notified our union members 14 days ago but decided to keep the passengers in the dark".
 

StarCrossing

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Does the announced strike impact GWR? The three depots named in the press release are presumably LNER depots, but there's mention of other workers striking too.

Sorry if this is obvious to others!
 

Horizon22

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My mistake then. However I would have thought the whole point of the two weeks notice is to inform the general public who might be affected by such actions. Otherwise we could rock up at a station to be told "sorry there's no trains today, strike action... oh we notified our union members 14 days ago but decided to keep the passengers in the dark".

Well if the intended consequence was an impact then that certainly would be it!

Also if the employer knows, they can also make plans around it advertise it now, if they wanted to.

Does the announced strike impact GWR? The three depots named in the press release are presumably LNER depots, but there's mention of other workers striking too.

Sorry if this is obvious to others!

No you're right it isn't clear - just this:

Unite the Union members working for Hitachi Rail will be taking strike action at the same time across the country.

It's vague but could impact Stoke Gifford and North Pole depots for GWR.

Does the announced strike impact GWR? The three depots named in the press release are presumably LNER depots, but there's mention of other workers striking too.

Sorry if this is obvious to others!

No you're right it isn't clear - just this:

Unite the Union members working for Hitachi Rail will be taking strike action at the same time across the country.

It's vague but could impact Stoke Gifford and North Pole depots for GWR.
 

ainsworth74

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My mistake then. However I would have thought the whole point of the two weeks notice is to inform the general public who might be affected by such actions. Otherwise we could rock up at a station to be told "sorry there's no trains today, strike action... oh we notified our union members 14 days ago but decided to keep the passengers in the dark".
It is nothing to do with informing the public nor is it a matter for the union, informing the public is the business of the affected employer. A Union may decide to make a public statement as part of its wider campaign (as ASLEF and the RMT tend to do) but it isn't up to the union to make public statement unless it wishes to do so. If you rocked up a railway station to be told there's no service due to strikes that is a failure of the train company not the union.
 

yorkie

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My mistake then. However I would have thought the whole point of the two weeks notice is to inform the general public who might be affected by such actions. Otherwise we could rock up at a station to be told "sorry there's no trains today, strike action... oh we notified our union members 14 days ago but decided to keep the passengers in the dark".
It's certainly not a binary 14 days or zero thing; there is a big middle ground between 14 days and on-the-day!

TOCs don't release the timetable for strike days 14 days in advance, as it takes time to establish what the effect will be and produce a new timetable; 7 days is more typical, and that's if you're lucky.
 

43066

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It is nothing to do with informing the public nor is it a matter for the union, informing the public is the business of the affected employer. A Union may decide to make a public statement as part of its wider campaign (as ASLEF and the RMT tend to do) but it isn't up to the union to make public statement unless it wishes to do so. If you rocked up a railway station to be told there's no service due to strikes that is a failure of the train company not the union.

100%.

It's certainly not a binary 14 days or zero thing; there is a big middle ground between 14 days and on-the-day!

TOCs don't release the timetable for strike days 14 days in advance, as it takes time to establish what the effect will be and produce a new timetable; 7 days is more typical, and that's if you're lucky.

The two weeks’ notice is a legal requirement between union and employer, and is to give the employer time to make alternative arrangements, insofar as they can.

You’d *hope* that a company who’s ability to deliver a product or service is affected by strike action, whether directly or indirectly, would give adequate notice of service changes to their customers, so that they could plan accordingly. But of course that’s entirely a matter for the company, and we’re talking about zombie TOCs on the 2024 UK railway here, who don’t take revenue risk, so they likely won’t bother.
 
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3RDGEN

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Does the announced strike impact GWR? The three depots named in the press release are presumably LNER depots, but there's mention of other workers striking too.

Sorry if this is obvious to others!
Unite also issued an announcement for the same days alongside the RMT's;

"https://www.unitetheunion.org/news-...ional-strike-by-hitachi-rail-workers-over-pay"

Railway journeys on Great North Eastern and Great Western railways will be heavily disrupted from next week due to strike action by workers at Hitachi Rail, Unite the union announced today (19 January 2024).

Over 300 Unite members and further members of the RMT who work as technicians, maintenance crews and engineers at Hitachi Rail Ltd were offered just a 5.5 or 6 per cent pay increase - a real-terms pay cut when inflation is taken into account.

Unite and RMT Hitachi Rail workers are at depots in Bristol, Plymouth, Penzance, Wiltshire, Swansea, London and Edinburgh. They will take part in strike action from 27 January 2024 until 1 February 2024.

This appears to cover the GWR depots, both announcements refer to RMT & Unite members.

I can't see any updates from LNER or GWR about service changes so either Hitachi haven't advised them yet what the effect on fleet availability will be or Hitachi expect to deliver the normal number of units during the five days.
 
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A fun side effect might be seeing charter stock out and about if the 80x availability gets too low. WCRC where running extras for avanti after the Queens death
 

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