Ticket retailer refusing to refund unused ticket after passenger decides not to travel due to disruption

[allotments]

West Midlands Trains (WMT) / London Northwestern Railway (LNR) are giving me the run around denying refund for an unused ticket Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Bangor (BNG)

Timeline

2024-01-23 14:53

Purchased Advance for 1D15 18:25 LLJ-BNG via LNR app

2024-01-23 18:04

1D15 was 12 minutes late at Prestatyn. I decided not to travel on the disrupted service. The LNR app had no functionality to request refund for this ticket where the journey was disrupted.

2024-01-23 18:18

I emailed [email protected] requesting refund.

2024-01-27 11:55

Email received from WMT: "For refunds on train tickets, please call 0333 311 0039... We do not have the authority to process refunds via this department. "

2024-01-27 11:59

Phoned WMT on 0333 311 0039: told to call LNR on 0333 311 0006. So WMT and LNR aren't the same train operating company? Strange.

2024-01-27 12:03 - 12:24 phoned LNR on 0333 311 0006 Refund denied because 1D15 only delayed 9 minutes. I pointed out that response was not compliant with National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT).

"30. Your Right to a Refund If Your Train Is Disrupted and You Choose Not to Travel...

You may return an unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom
it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee
charged, if you decide not to travel because the train you intended to use is: • cancelled, or • delayed..."

Told to contact customer services. Full circle now.

2024-01-27 12:46

Emailed WMT customer services again requesting refund and stating that response had been non-compliant with NRCoT.

So my experience is that I should avoid purchasing tickets via the LNR app because my passenger rights may not be respected in the event of disruption.

Any thoughts/suggestions?

Which online ticket retailers operate a no quibble refund policy in these circumstances?

 

[Bletchleyite]

WMT's sales operation is provided under contract by Trainline.

 

[allotments]

WMT's sales operation is provided under contract by Trainline.

Yes. I see the following displayed within the LNR app

"Our Booking Service is operated by our service provider Trainline.com Limited (with company number 03846791). When processing booking transactions, Trainline.com Limited accepts the booking as the agent for West MidlandsTrains and does not act for or on behalf of the customer. When you purchase a travel service or other travel-related purchase through our Booking Service Trainline.com Limited shall act as the merchant and take payment for the service or product."

Further down the page:

"The National Rail Conditions of Travel entitle Customers to the same levels of compensation or refund entitlements regardless of where they purchase their ticket."

So who is it that answers the phone when I call
0333 311 0039 choosing option 2 and 2? Is it Trainline masquerading as WMT?

 

[Watershed]

I'm afraid my experience is that trying to get a refund from Trainline or their whitelabel derivatives (such as WMT, GA, ScotRail etc.) is an exercise in frustration. On more than one occasion it's proved necessary for me to do a chargeback to get the refund I'm owed.

I would suggest using a smaller retailer where you are more likely to have your request dealt with by someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An option would be a chargeback via your card provider, but I seem to recall if you do this you will be permanently banned from buying via any Trainline provided site so you may not want to for what is likely a fairly low value ticket.

 

[AndrewE]

12 minutes late on a journey with no changes involved isn't really any big deal, is it? (Assuming I have understood this right.) For most of us nowadays completing a journey within half an hour of booked time makes it a good day!

I'm surprised that you think that a single 12-minute late train could be called disruption or significant delay. If you were making a journey with a scheduled tight connection and experience that it wouldn't be held then I might believe that an initial 12-min delay could snowball and make the journey pointless. If you were going to something where punctualtiy was critical then most people would get the train before and go to a cafe or something to fill the time!

Otherwise it sounds like a frivolous claim to me.

 

[Watershed]

12 minutes late on a journey with no changes involved isn't really any big deal, is it? (Assuming I have understood this right.) For most of us nowadays completing a journey within half an hour of booked time makes it a good day!

I'm surprised that you think that a single 12-minute late train could be called disruption or significant delay. If you were making a journey with a scheduled tight connection and experience that it wouldn't be held then I might believe that an initial 12-min delay could snowball and make the journey pointless. If you were going to something where punctualtiy was critical then most people would get the train before and go to a cafe or something to fill the time!

With respect, the comparatively short nature of the delay is irrelevant. The NRCoT says you're entitled to abandon a journey for a full refund (regardless of ticket type) if there is a delay. The drafters decided not to specify a minimum qualifying delay; therefore, any delay entitles the passenger to a full refund if they choose not to travel.

In any event, 12 minutes is nearly the same as the length of the journey here - 16 minutes. So in the context of the journey it is a significant delay. Imagine you were stuck on a Tube for 12 minutes - would you not consider that disruption? I certainly would.

Otherwise it sounds like a frivolous claim to me.

The railway is in the habit of pursuing frivolous matters against passengers - even cases where the fare paid is correct, and the passenger simply holds a ticket issued to/from the "wrong" station. Accordingly I'd say passengers are more than justified in pursuing any claim they may have against the railway - no matter how frivolous (or otherwise) it may be.

Perhaps there will come a time when the railway starts acting a little more reasonably and this can be revisited. But even then, we are talking about a clear-cut matter of relying on rights the railway has decided to give passengers. If that counts as frivolous then so does the railway's insistence on people using their booked trains with Advance tickets...

 

[Brissle Girl]

In any event, 12 minutes is nearly the same as the length of the journey here - 16 minutes. So in the context of the journey it is a significant delay. Imagine you were stuck on a Tube for 12 minutes - would you not consider that disruption? I certainly would.

TfL wouldn’t though, as its delay threshold for a refund is set at 15 minutes.

 

[Watershed]

TfL wouldn’t though, as its delay threshold for a refund is set at 15 minutes.

And indeed TfW's threshold for Delay Repay is the also 15 minutes. But the key point is it clearly qualifies as disruption - and more importantly, the NRCoT merely requires there to be a delay, which by any definition there was.

 

[AndrewE]

And indeed TfW's threshold for Delay Repay is the also 15 minutes. But the key point is it clearly qualifies as disruption - and more importantly, the NRCoT merely requires there to be a delay, which by any definition there was.

it would be interesting to see a court precedent set on this - and how a common sense judgement would be applied. I can't imagine anybody (outside an obsessively legalistic enclave) remotely considering that one train 12 minutes late constitutes disruption, and someone pursuing it would be risking their money with legal fees and wasting court time. To me disruption means lots of trains cancelled or running out of course.

 

[allotments]

Seeing the disruption I decided to travel later and purchased a new Advance ticket for a different train.

It should be easy to get a refund for the unused ticket but it turns out to be disproportionately difficult.

My experience of disruption on the North Wales coast is that disrupted trains get further disrupted and might be best avoided. After I decided to travel later, my original train, 1D15 skip stopped Conwy, Penmaenmawr and Llanfairfechan. Quite unpredictable.

 

[AndrewE]

Seeing the disruption

What disruption? One train slightly delayed, and no connection involved.

I decided to travel later and purchased a new Advance ticket for a different train. It should be easy to get a refund for the unused ticket but it turns out to be disproportionately difficult.

My experience of disruption on the North Wales coast is that disrupted trains get further disrupted and might be best avoided. After I decided to travel later, my original train, 1D15 skip stopped Conwy, Penmaenmawr and Llanfairfechan. Quite unpredictable.

but you only wanted to travel from LLJ to Bangor, so that is completely irrelevant, and indicates that control knew what they were doing. In fact you would have arrived closer to your expected arrival time than the initial 12 minute delay, so what is your problem?

 

[allotments]

What disruption? One train slightly delayed, and no connection involved.

but you only wanted to travel from LLJ to Bangor, so that is completely irrelevant, and indicates that control knew what they were doing. In fact you would have arrived closer to your expected arrival time than the initial 12 minute delay, so what is your problem?

I don't have a problem at all

I decide (knowing my rights from NRCoT) to refund the first ticket due to delay. It's my choice.

I decide to travel later and pay for a new ticket.

Do you have a problem with that?
.

 

[43096]

I don't have a problem at all

I decide (knowing my rights from NRCoT) to refund the first ticket due to delay. It's my choice.

I decide to travel later and pay for a new ticket.

Do you have a problem with that?
.

From the outside, that is decidedly odd behaviour for a 12 minute delay.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

it would be interesting to see a court precedent set on this - and how a common sense judgement would be applied. I can't imagine anybody (outside an obsessively legalistic enclave) remotely considering that one train 12 minutes late constitutes disruption

There is another way to look at that, if a train does not arrive on time I would say that it fits the definition of being disrupted, now there is an official definition through the PPM of what being on time is classed as, which is:

That a train is defined as on time if it arrives at its final destination within five minutes of the scheduled destination arrival time for London and South East and regional operators; or within ten minutes for long-distance operator

So by that measure in my opinion 2 or 3 minutes late shouldn't be classed as disrupted and no refund due, however 12 minutes would, personally that's not at a level I would abandon a journey for but it is over the industry threshold level for performance measures so if went to court I could actually see a common sense judgement ruling in the OPs favour, a court would have to draw the line somewhere and the industry's own measure certainly would be a common sense place to do so

 

[richw]

So by that measure in my opinion 2 or 3 minutes late shouldn't be classed as disrupted and no refund due, however 12 minutes would, personally that's not at a level I would abandon a journey for but it is over the industry threshold level for performance measures so if went to court I could actually see a common sense judgement ruling in the OPs favour, a court would have to draw the line somewhere and the industry's own measure certainly would be a common sense place to do so

It arrived at the destination 9 minutes late which is the important delay for any claim.
Does the ToC in question fall under the 5 or 10 minutes late for PPM. If it’s 10 minutes then it doesn’t fall into the definition of delayed

 

[PupCuff]

Regardless of the rhetoric and people's strong views on what the NRCOT should say, based on what it does actually say, OP is entitled to their refund without administration fee.

However it's stated explicitly on LNR's website that this cannot be dealt with by phone to Customer Relations and that the refund request should be via email to: sales.support.londonnorthwesternrailway [at] trainsfares.co.uk

Per: https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/contact-us/refunds-and-changing-your-ticket

 

[richw]

Regardless of the rhetoric and people's strong views on what the NRCOT should say, based on what it does actually say, OP is entitled to their refund without administration fee.

It depends on whether “delayed” is defined anywhere within the NRCOT.

 

[Watershed]

It depends on whether “delayed” is defined anywhere within the NRCOT.

It isn't (like most important terms!). I would refer to @tspaul26 's comments on another similar thread:

If there is such a difference there is no mention of it in the NRCOT which is the relevant contractual instrument.
The NRCOT contains no qualification on the right to abandon if there is a delay - no minimum delay is stipulated.
But there is nothing on the face of the NRCOT to prevent this.

 

[richw]

It isn't (like most important terms!). I would refer to @tspaul26 's comments on another similar thread:

In that case, 1 minute late is a delay, and could be a way used to get a refund on an unwanted advance. I suspect that’s the real story here. Unwanted advance, seen a way of getting a refund.

 

[Watershed]

In that case, 1 minute late is a delay, and could be a way used to get a refund on an unwanted advance. I suspect that’s the real story here. Unwanted advance, seen a way of getting a refund.

It doesn't really matter what the passenger's underlying motivations are. But yes, it is a way of getting a refund on an unwanted Advance ticket.

 

[allotments]

In that case, 1 minute late is a delay, and could be a way used to get a refund on an unwanted advance. I suspect that’s the real story here. Unwanted advance, seen a way of getting a refund.

I routinely buy Advance tickets from railsmartr because they permit changes to travel date time before departure without admin fee. This has worked seamlessly.

Unfortunately on this occasion the Advance tickets didn't appear on their search so I had to buy elsewhere.

 

[tspaul26]

it would be interesting to see a court precedent set on this - and how a common sense judgement would be applied. I can't imagine anybody (outside an obsessively legalistic enclave) remotely considering that one train 12 minutes late constitutes disruption, and someone pursuing it would be risking their money with legal fees and wasting court time. To me disruption means lots of trains cancelled or running out of course.

It is not necessary for there to be “disruption” in order to engage the right to a refund under NRCOT n. 30.

Delay is sufficient and is stated without any qualification as to minimum duration.

there is an official definition through the PPM of what being on time is classed as

This is not incorporated into the NRCOT refund provisions.

a court would have to draw the line somewhere and the industry's own measure certainly would be a common sense place to do so

A court would have to do no such thing: it must simply interpret the wording of the contract according to the ordinary meaning of the actual language used.

Noting in this regard that the passenger will almost invariably be a consumer and therefore entitled to a starting point of protection - especially as in the case of delay related refunds where the reason the refund process is engaged is because the operator didn’t deliver what was promised.

Regardless of the rhetoric and people's strong views on what the NRCOT should say, based on what it does actually say, OP is entitled to their refund without administration fee.

Correct.

It depends on whether “delayed” is defined anywhere within the NRCOT.

It is not.

 

[Willie Bee]

A week ago during Storm Isha I made a posting on this forum about my decision not to travel the following day to / from Carlisle from Newcastle. TV/Radio News programmes were telling folk not to travel unless essential. I took this advice

I had several replies and it was mentioned that NorthernRail should provide me with a replacement ticket to Carlisle at a time to suit myself. Somebody even mentioned the possibility of getting a replacement 'travel anywhere' ticket. I had bought my advance tickets in the sale, so I wasn't really wanting a refund, as I wouldn't be able to buy another ticket for the same price.

I contacted websales, who were of no help, then they passed me on to another department who were also of no help. Trying to talk to a sales person in India about a problem here isn't always that easy. In the end, yesterday, the websales team said they would provide a refund, but I have to wait up to 5 days to receive it

 

[Adam Williams]

With respect, the comparatively short nature of the delay is irrelevant

From the outside, that is decidedly odd behaviour for a 12 minute delay.

I can think of more than a few scenarios where a delay of this duration would've screwed up my intended plans following rail transport. Particularly if I'm connecting to non-rail transport, or have a specific time to meet at the other end. A good example, which ironically is also a problem of the railway's own making, is the 8pm 'curfew' that I now need to adhere to when driving home via my preferred route, because HS2's contractors decide to close the road every night. I have every right to plan my rail journey to give me just 10 minutes leeway to get to this section of road and abandon my rail journey / take a quicker non-rail transport alternative if it looks like making it through in time is in doubt.

Folks may argue that passengers should plan for/allow further time so that I don't have to abandon / cancel the plans made around the rail network's network, and pragmatically - maybe it'd mean less hassle if I did. But, as has been discussed upthread, the NRCoT doesn't say that I need to. It's a cut and dried abandoned journey refund.

 

[Haywain]

Folks may argue that passengers should plan for/allow further time

This sort of argument, that you should have a 'Plan B', rather overlooks that you may already have done that and still been delayed because some outside factor got in the way of Plan A.

 

[Adam Williams]

This sort of argument, that you should have a 'Plan B', rather overlooks that you may already have done that and still been delayed because some outside factor got in the way of Plan A.

This is very true, too.

Really, we simply can't make any assumptions about what the passenger's journey was, or judge how it was planned without knowing any of the details.

 

[Watershed]

This is very true, too.

Really, we simply can't make any assumptions about what the passenger's journey was, or judge how it was planned without knowing any of the details.

Or indeed the 'Plan B' may involve abandoning the railway and using some other mode of transport (the cost of which wouldn't be reimbursed for a delay of this magnitude).

 

[Starmill]

From the outside, that is decidedly odd behaviour for a 12 minute delay.

Why? Can you give us full reasoning?

 

[Krokodil]

Why? Can you give us full reasoning?

I can't think of a circumstance where such a small delay (with no onward rail connections though perhaps there is a last bus or something) would cause me to abandon my plans.