So many announcements, so few people taking them on board

[ainsworth74]

In the UK we take a more risk averse approach towards these matters than many other countries, and the railway is no different in that respect. Whether we should adopt that stance is ultimately a value judgement, but a clear benefit of our approach is that we do live in an extremely “safe” country in global terms, as you realise when you travel to even equivalent European countries such as France (and there are plenty of stats to back this up).

Absolutely and I'd be wary of throwing the baby out with the bath water which is why I'm not quite sure what the answer is it. It feels intrinsically that having announcements for the sake a piece of paper is a waste of time and effort (and even gets in the way of people paying attention to actually important announcements). But equally I don't want to throw the whole thing out if that causes a noticeable decline in the hard fought levels of safety that we have both on the railway and the wider world.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely and I'd be wary of throwing the baby out with the bath water which is why I'm not quite sure what the answer is it. It feels intrinsically that having announcements for the sake a piece of paper is a waste of time and effort (and even gets in the way of people paying attention to actually important announcements). But equally I don't want to throw the whole thing out if that causes a noticeable decline in the hard fought levels of safety that we have both on the railway and the wider world.

It would be interesting to see some proper analysis done into just how much announcements contribute to improved safety. Has there been a notable improvement over the last one to two decades which can be shown to be the result of announcements? Are announcements the *best* (or even a good) way of communicating such information? Would written notices be better, allowing PA systems to be used to communicate very important information only, and therefore making that information much more impacting?

I am sceptical that announcements have that much effect at all, simply because of the numbers of people who clearly and demonstrably don’t react to them. I’m sure we’ve all known the situation where train staff can make multiple good clear announcements about an issue, only to find a whole host of people who don’t seem to have taken in the content of the message.

And, of course, it’s quite possible to switch of *all* announcements (excepting emergency ones, of course), and the world seems not to end.

 

[MikeWM]

Didn't 'Grant Shapps' make a video a couple of years back promising to cut back on all these announcements because they were annoying? That went well, given there seem to be more than ever...

 

[DarloRich]

Why do announcements cause such angst on this board? - can you not just zone them out and let it wash over you? The way some posters go on you would think the entire journey was some kind of white noise torture! It really isn't that bad.

( it is easy done without losing awareness of what is being said - honestly - try it - don't get so wound up! It isn't worth it)

 

[43066]

Absolutely and I'd be wary of throwing the baby out with the bath water which is why I'm not quite sure what the answer is it. It feels intrinsically that having announcements for the sake a piece of paper is a waste of time and effort (and even gets in the way of people paying attention to actually important announcements). But equally I don't want to throw the whole thing out if that causes a noticeable decline in the hard fought levels of safety that we have both on the railway and the wider world.

Agreed. On the railway we’re somewhat unusual in that we’re in an industry which is inherently dangerous, and can kill people very easily, so health and safety means more than elsewhere. Due to deindustrialisation/automation far fewer people work in jobs like that than during yester year. It’s off topic to discuss much further, but its a fascinating area, and some of the 19th century Tort cases around industrial accidents make interesting reading, and show how far we’ve come.

It would be interesting to see some proper analysis done into just how much announcements contribute to improved safety. Has there been a notable improvement over the last one to two decades which can be shown to be the result of announcements? Are announcements the *best* (or even a good) way of communicating such information? Would written notices be better, allowing PA systems to be used to communicate very important information only, and therefore making that information much more impacting?

I am sceptical that announcements have that much effect at all, simply because of the numbers of people who clearly and demonstrably don’t react to them. I’m sure we’ve all known the situation where train staff can make multiple good clear announcements about an issue, only to find a whole host of people who don’t seem to have taken in the content of the message.

And, of course, it’s quite possible to switch of *all* announcements (excepting emergency ones, of course), and the world seems not to end.

The announcements are more a symptom
of the wider culture, and backside covering, than a cause of increased safety. Then again many are mandated due to anti terrorism concerns.

Why do announcements cause such angst on this board? - can you not just zone them out and let it wash over you? The way some posters go on you would think the entire journey was some kind of white noise torture! It really isn't that bad.

( it is easy done without losing awareness of what is being said - honestly - try it - don't get so wound up!)

My theory on that is that this board has a higher % of users on the autistic spectrum than the general population, and hypersensitivity to audio stimulation is a common trait.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Didn't 'Grant Shapps' make a video a couple of years back promising to cut back on all these announcements because they were annoying? That went well, given there seem to be more than ever...

He will probably claim he was actually talking about cutting back on the space between announcements.

 

[mike57]

Why do announcements cause such angst on this board? - can you not just zone them out and let it wash over you?

There is an issue for those of us who are deaf, in order to hear we have to concentrate a lot harder which creates stress and fatigue, and then you are left with maybe one important announcement amongst a sea. of to be honest. rubbish.

Add to that the variable audio quality, external background noise and a good proportion are unintellegable even if I concentrate.

Not ideal as I will probably miss something important. I have now resorted to noise cancelling earbuds, which tune it out enough not to be stressful.

Wasnt there a case a few years back where a GWR had service changes which were announced but missed by some passengers.

What if its a real safety issue. Half the passengers are not going to hear.

To my way of thinking announcements should be the current stop, final destination and next stop at each calling point, as in "this is Xtown, this train is for Ztown, the next stop will be Ytown", after that announcements should be restricted to things which are of immediate concern. Relegate the other dross to a TV screen, with an audio loop for the blind. I know rain is wet , ice is slippery, and there is usually a gap between the train and platform, and as for the see it say it...

I assume it will take a seroius incident where one of the root causes is identified as announcement fatigue before anything is done.

 

[Jamiescott1]

The ones to text british transport police are incorrect. They say to text 61o16. When you should text 61016 to text btp

 

[43066]

The ones to text british transport police are incorrect. They say to text 61o16. When you should text 61016 to text btp

This really is peak RailUK Forums silliness!

It’s also incorrect. According to the OED the letter O can mean zero, especially in the context of spoken English, as per its perfectly clear meaning in that particular announcement.

 

[ainsworth74]

It would be interesting to see some proper analysis done into just how much announcements contribute to improved safety. Has there been a notable improvement over the last one to two decades which can be shown to be the result of announcements? Are announcements the *best* (or even a good) way of communicating such information? Would written notices be better, allowing PA systems to be used to communicate very important information only, and therefore making that information much more impacting?

I am sceptical that announcements have that much effect at all, simply because of the numbers of people who clearly and demonstrably don’t react to them. I’m sure we’ve all known the situation where train staff can make multiple good clear announcements about an issue, only to find a whole host of people who don’t seem to have taken in the content of the message.

And, of course, it’s quite possible to switch of *all* announcements (excepting emergency ones, of course), and the world seems not to end.

Yes I was thinking it would be nice to have some empirical research on the subject. It feels to me that the likelihood is that the majority of announcements have no influence on safety at all in part because there are so many that the majority just treat it as background noise and don't really register them. Which makes me wonder if they actually have the opposite effect. People don't listen to announcements because they are nearly all irrelevant, therefore when an important announcement is made people miss it, therefore an accident occurs or someone gets on the wrong train, misses a train, etc etc.

If the only regular announcements were "next train at platform x is ... calling at ..." (preferably filtered by platform, if I'm on P3 I don't care what's going from P1) and that was it then would announcements like "The next train at platform x is now running fast between y and z, do not board this train if you require a, b and c as the train is no logner calling there" achieve more cut through?

I don't know the answer but it would be interesting to find out. Perhaps something for the DfT, ORR or RSSB to spend some of their research budget on rather than whatever the latest shiny thing is that comes across a ministers desk!

Why do announcements cause such angst on this board? - can you not just zone them out and let it wash over you? The way some posters go on you would think the entire journey was some kind of white noise torture! It really isn't that bad.

I quite happily let them wash over me and it doesn't particularly cause me angst. I just think that we should do better than simply play lots of announcements so a box can be ticked on a risk assessment to lower a theoretical risk when it doesn't actually achieve anything other than cover someone's legal backside and might actually get in the way of people listening and absorbing important/useful information because they've zoned out!

Agreed. On the railway we’re somewhat unusual in that we’re in an industry which is inherently dangerous, and can kill people very easily, so health and safety means more than elsewhere. Due to deindustrialisation/automation far fewer people work in jobs like that than during yester year. It’s off topic to discuss much further, but its a fascinating area, and some of the 19th century Tort cases around industrial accidents make interesting reading, and show how far we’ve come.

Definitely agreed on both counts!

 

[Horizon22]

At least the Electrostars have a different bing-bong to the auto-announcer to tell you if there's a manual announcement, so you can take youe headphones off and listen up!

Yes I’ve always found that audio distinction good - and would like to see it employed at more locations where relevant - especially when you’ve unexpectedly stopped or the concourse is heaving because as you say you pay extra attention.

Didn't 'Grant Shapps' make a video a couple of years back promising to cut back on all these announcements because they were annoying? That went well, given there seem to be more than ever...

Yes and it was discussed (at length!) here:

Trains told to get rid of torrent of 'Tannoy spam'

This is quite topical considering a few recent threads! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60069429 If you're a commuter returning to the office after a long period of working from home, you may soon notice a subtle difference on your morning train. In the next few months, rail chiefs will...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[InkyScrolls]

Yes I was thinking it would be nice to have some empirical research on the subject. It feels to me that the likelihood is that the majority of announcements have no influence on safety at all in part because there are so many that the majority just treat it as background noise and don't really register them. Which makes me wonder if they actually have the opposite effect. People don't listen to announcements because they are nearly all irrelevant, therefore when an important announcement is made people miss it, therefore an accident occurs or someone gets on the wrong train, misses a train, etc etc.

If the only regular announcements were "next train at platform x is ... calling at ..." (preferably filtered by platform, if I'm on P3 I don't care what's going from P1) and that was it then would announcements like "The next train at platform x is now running fast between y and z, do not board this train if you require a, b and c as the train is no logner calling there" achieve more cut through?

I don't know the answer but it would be interesting to find out. Perhaps something for the DfT, ORR or RSSB to spend some of their research budget on rather than whatever the latest shiny thing is that comes across a ministers desk!

I quite happily let them wash over me and it doesn't particularly cause me angst. I just think that we should do better than simply play lots of announcements so a box can be ticked on a risk assessment to lower a theoretical risk when it doesn't actually achieve anything other than cover someone's legal backside and might actually get in the way of people listening and absorbing important/useful information because they've zoned out!

Definitely agreed on both counts!

What if you're on the wrong platform?

 

[MikeWM]

Yes and it was discussed (at length!) here:

Trains told to get rid of torrent of 'Tannoy spam'

This is quite topical considering a few recent threads! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60069429 If you're a commuter returning to the office after a long period of working from home, you may soon notice a subtle difference on your morning train. In the next few months, rail chiefs will...

www.railforums.co.uk

I didn't realise I was being quite that accurate when I said 'a couple of years back'! Looks like it was exactly 2 years and 10 days ago.

 

[realaledrinker]

Surprised that the TfW class 197 announcements have not had a mention. Same three announcements save for the station name, before during and after every station stop. In Welsh as well as in English. That’s six announcements for every station!

 

[bramling]

Why do announcements cause such angst on this board? - can you not just zone them out and let it wash over you?

Why should people? Pointless announcements are a distraction especially if one is attempting to crack on with something else, whilst at other times it may well be the case that people simply want to relax in peace and quiet.

These are all areas where rail *should* have an advantage over choosing to travel by car. If this is no longer the case, then why not (do what most of the population do anyway and) travel by car?

It shouldn’t be necessary for people to want to bring headphones when travelling by train.

The way some posters go on you would think the entire journey was some kind of white noise torture! It really isn't that bad.

Most journeys to be fair aren’t, but there are some which certainly are. Especially if you then get a guard or driver who likes the sound of their own voice and repeats everything the auto announcer has already said.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

As this type of thread does pop up on the forum every few months, I thought I might mention once again a couple of points I raised last time out.

In terms of partially sighted passengers needing to hear information, with the advent of mobile technology surely it's not beyond the reach of the rail industry to come up with an app that, along with a set of headphones, visually impaired and nervous people can download to their phones that will enable them to hear all the announcements they like while the rest of us can enjoy our journey in blissful peace and quiet?

Secondly, the See It Say It Sort It drivel really does need to go now as it serves no useful purpose. I think it was first introduced in the post 9/11 hysteria era when for a short time there was the perception of a terrorist threat to public safety but now that threat has long since disappeared such an announcement is just an annoyance. In all my years of travelling I have never once needed to contact BTP and if I ever did a simple google search would tell me their contact details.

 

[Turtle]

Found this rather amusing tonight on the last SWR train from Guildford to Waterloo. At every single station the same announcement would be repeated "Make sure you're in the front 8 carriages for Wimbledon and Clapham junction as these stations have short platforms". With so many stops it almost got annoying.

And of course as we arrive at Wimbledon, almost half of carriage 9 stood up to get off and wondered why the door wouldn't open (I was surprised at how many people were getting off there which further shows how ridiculous it is that swr don't normally stop any mainline services there given how well connected it is). I had to usher them down to the next carriage...

At Clapham junction there were less people but still some that tried to alight from carriage 9 despite repeated announcements as we pulled in...

I just found it amusing mostly, the announcements were non stop but a significant amount of people paid zero attention. And then when we arrived at Waterloo many people moved down, I will assume they were just in a hurry but I fear some had seen what had gone down at the last two stations and assumed the doors were broken or something

Aural overload.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Surprised that the TfW class 197 announcements have not had a mention. Same three announcements save for the station name, before during and after every station stop. In Welsh as well as in English. That’s six announcements for every station!

I was surprised and pleased that the Class 150 on the Ebbw Vale line a couple of days ago only had English announcements. But it still had a couple of things to irritate me.

Firstly, why say the service will stop at the following principal stations and then proceed to list them all. (I recall this also happening on the Heart of Wales line a few years ago, where there could be an argument for only listing the main stops.)

And secondly, after listing the stations the announcement then says thank you. Why? It has just told us the station calls - why does it need to thank us?

 

[VioletEclipse]

I would think that there should be a difference between local and long distance services when it comes to announcements. For example I was thinking for long distance services with more than say 15-20 minutes between stops then it's acceptable to play a list of announcements (providing they genuinely serve a purpose!) while if a service has, say, under 10 minutes between stops then only the essential announcements should be played. What exactly counts as essential and what doesn't I don't know.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, there are far too many announcements and therefore people don't pay attention.

However, the people who make these decisions probably lack the sort of real-world experience people like us have.

Corporate risk aversion at play - "we made announcements to cover virtually every eventuality so nothing else is our fault...". Another classic example is wet floor yellow cones - causing obstructions in busy areas and therefore more likely to cause problems than prevent them...

 

[DarloRich]

Relegate the other dross to a TV screen, with an audio loop for the blind. I know rain is wet , ice is slippery, and there is usually a gap between the train and platform, and as for the see it say it...

No problem with any of that.

There is an issue for those of us who are deaf, in order to hear we have to concentrate a lot harder which creates stress and fatigue, and then you are left with maybe one important announcement amongst a sea. of to be honest. rubbish.

Ok - what is the solution for those with hearing impediments? Even limited announcements must be a trial. Is there away to mitigate that emotional cost of trying to process them?

BTW this is not me trying to dismiss your position or experience . It must be difficult in life generally trying to process all of the noise out there.

I just think that we should do better than simply play lots of announcements so a box can be ticked on a risk assessment to lower a theoretical risk when it doesn't actually achieve anything other than cover someone's legal backside and might actually get in the way of people listening and absorbing important/useful information because they've zoned out!

ok - how do you mitigate the case brought by the person who injures themselves by slipping on the ice they didn't know about? You cant say thought you shouldn't be so stupid sadly.

You cant also say you SHOULD be allowed to say that!

Pointless announcements are a distraction especially if one is attempting to crack on with something else,

how do people manage in an open plan office if they cant cope with a few announcements? Near me I can hear at least 6 different conversations yet I am still able to concentrate on this thread while I have a tea break?

I don't know the answer but it would be interesting to find out. Perhaps something for the DfT, ORR or RSSB to spend some of their research budget on rather than whatever the latest shiny thing is that comes across a ministers desk!

no problem with that - lets have a look at what the data tells us.

 

[Russel]

All of which are mandatory manual announcements that we have no choice (well obviously we do but at the risk of being pulled up over...) but to make.

Between Stafford and Rugby, all stations require an announcement due to being common connection points for XC and the Cannock line, and 2 are UDS stations so which do you cut?

Yes there is 1 particular Crewe guard who does make rather long manual announcements, but just 1 that I can recall.

I understand they are mandatory, it doesn't mean I agree with LNWR making it mandatory, it's overkill.

 

[mike57]

Ok - what is the solution for those with hearing impediments? Even limited announcements must be a trial. Is there away to mitigate that emotional cost of trying to process them?

A 'bing bong' introduction makes a big difference to me, like SNCF and some other countries, in spite of only having limited French I actually get on better with their announcements, it gives you time to 'switch on' and concentrate. My deafness has crept up on me over the years, its hereditry. Hearing aids help, and the 'bing bong' means you can turn it on, but a lot of my issue is with clarity rather than volume, any loss of audio quality, and by the time my hearing issues have added some more distortion its unintellegible.

 

[DarloRich]

A 'bing bong' introduction makes a big difference to me, like SNCF and some other countries, in spite of only having limited French I actually get on better with their announcements, it gives you time to 'switch on' and concentrate.

do we not do that? If not we should!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[stuu]

Well that is untrue. Not to mention it's not just for threats like terrorism but how many people know the 61016 number now? It's awareness which is still very useful even if it can be turned into a meme and moaned about.

I have no idea what the number is (ignoring the fact you have written it down here ) I have heard the announcements so many times and yet I have completely tuned it out. I bet I'm not alone in that

 

[mike57]

how do people manage in an open plan office if they cant cope with a few announcements? Near me I can hear at least 6 different conversations yet I am still able to concentrate on this thread while I have a tea break?

With great difficulty, I was already having discussions re home working prior to Covid. For Teams/Zoom calls and meetings I use over ear headphones and have a very quiet WFH environment. Video calls are easier than Voice only calls. Colleagues know to look at the camera...

 

[bramling]

ok - how do you mitigate the case brought by the person who injures themselves by slipping on the ice they didn't know about? You cant say thought you shouldn't be so stupid sadly.

Perhaps this is the mentality which needs to be challenged? Especially people making sham compensation claims to make a few quid. Sadly this probably won’t happen, as there’s always people who will do anything to make themselves a comparatively tiny sum of money. It’s pretty pathetic really.

how do people manage in an open plan office if they cant cope with a few announcements? Near me I can hear at least 6 different conversations yet I am still able to concentrate on this thread while I have a tea break?

Can’t claim to have much experience of open-plan offices, thankfully. But for the one year when I did work in one, I don’t remember it being much of an issue. For the reasons that most conversations were carried out in a muted fashion, as opposed to being at a loud volume on speakers immediately above one’s head as is the case on a train, secondly such conversations weren’t made up of spliced-together audio fragments often in particularly irritating voices, and also I’d imagine most offices have some element of natural sound deadening such as carpets etc.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

how do people manage in an open plan office if they cant cope with a few announcements? Near me I can hear at least 6 different conversations yet I am still able to concentrate on this thread while I have a tea break?

I, for one, find it incredibly difficult. I'm constantly having to use noise-cancelling earbuds to cancel it out in order to have any hope of concentrating, and I'm still much, much less focussed in an office surrounded by conversation than I am at home alone.

 

[Horizon22]

Perhaps this is the mentality which needs to be challenged? Especially people making sham compensation claims to make a few quid. Sadly this probably won’t happen, as there’s always people who will do anything to make themselves a comparatively tiny sum of money. It’s pretty pathetic.

Unfortunately this is what the reality of the mentality and culture is though. It would be ridiculous to suggest the railway can change a nation’s mentality and this has to deal in the realities of the situation that people do make such claims & any mitigation against it can thus save money (and it could be 4-5 figure sums, not just a “few quid”)

 

[43066]

how do people manage in an open plan office if they cant cope with a few announcements?

It’s notable that, based on the location I visited a couple of weeks back, signallers in ROCs/signalling centres are expected to cope with an open plan environment, while undertaking their highly safety critical role.