Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Killingworth]

Todays Railways tweet today, implies EMR will introduce early 2025, with full fleet by Dec 2025.

Wishful thinking. Diarise this post for 31.12.2025 and realistically I suspect there'll still be Meridians in service. Too little produxtion, testing and training to do before then. Hope I'm wrong

 

[800001]

Wishful thinking. Diarise this post for 31.12.2025 and realistically I suspect there'll still be Meridians in service. Too little produxtion, testing and training to do before then. Hope I'm wrong

Them dates have come from EMR/Hitachi. Over half the units are currently in production.

 

[STINT47]

Does anything that EMR promises have any value anymore? They have said that they will do so many things by a certain date only to be late or more often for it not to happen at all. I hope they meet the dates but won't be surprised if its another let down

 

[QSK19]

The real winners here are Eversholt, methinks: 4-5 years’ worth of extra leasing revenue above what was originally expected (and wouldn’t be surprised if even more).

Surely the 810s won’t reach a decade old before they enter service?!

 

[Bald Rick]

The real winners here are Eversholt, methinks: 4-5 years’ worth of extra leasing revenue above what was originally expected (and wouldn’t be surprised if even more).

EMR won’t be leasing them, and thus Eversholt won’t be beimg paid, until they are accepted.

 

[QSK19]

EMR won’t be leasing them, and thus Eversholt won’t be beimg paid, until they are accepted.

I meant Eversholt getting extra revenue for the 222s - Rock Rail are the ROSCO for the 810s, I believe. But yep very true regarding no leasing revenue for the 810s yet!

 

[Bald Rick]

I meant Eversholt getting extra revenue for the 222s - Rock Rail are the ROSCO for the 810s, I believe. But yep very true regarding no leasing revenue for the 810s yet!

Ah, my mistake, sorry.

But yes!

 

[Yew]

So since this fleet won't be fully operational for 2 years, is there going to be any thought given on to how to alleviate the chronic overcrowding on the Midland Main Line?

 

[dosxuk]

So since this fleet won't be fully operational for 2 years, is there going to be any thought given on to how to alleviate the chronic overcrowding on the Midland Main Line?

The new fleet isn't going to alleviate the chronic overcrowding, so not much point in trying to solve it for now when the problem will just come back.

 

[The_Train]

The new fleet isn't going to alleviate the chronic overcrowding, so not much point in trying to solve it for now when the problem will just come back.

This is a sad reflection of most new trains these days. Usage isn't generally considered and hasn't really been considered since everything became fixed units, it's all about penny pinching these days. If a business had one machine in its factory but had enough orders to require 2 machines, the business wouldn't replace their current machine it would invest in a new one to run alongside the current one. What the railways do is see 5 car trains regularly rammed full and then replace them with the same capacity trains.....or in some cases, less capacity trains

 

[Trainbike46]

This is a sad reflection of most new trains these days. Usage isn't generally considered and hasn't really been considered since everything became fixed units, it's all about penny pinching these days. If a business had one machine in its factory but had enough orders to require 2 machines, the business wouldn't replace their current machine it would invest in a new one to run alongside the current one. What the railways do is see 5 car trains regularly rammed full and then replace them with the same capacity trains.....or in some cases, less capacity trains

There is 27 222s (23 5-cars and 4 7-cars), with a total seat capacity of:
7-cars: 236 standard and 106 first class seats:342 seats per train, 1368 seats total in fleet
5-cars: 192 standard and 50 first class seats:242 seats per train, 5566 steats total in feet

Across the whole 222 fleet, there are therefore 6,934 seats

There will be 33 810s, all 5 car
they will have 254 standard and 47 first class seats, giving 301 seats per train, or 9,933 across the fleet

In short, there will be an uplift from 6,934 seats across the fleet to 9,933 seats, so about 3,000 extra seats, both by having more trains and more seats per train. If that doesn't qualify as a capacity uplift I don't know what does!

 

[Verulamius]

There is 27 222s (23 5-cars and 4 7-cars), with a total seat capacity of:
7-cars: 236 standard and 106 first class seats:342 seats per train, 1368 seats total in fleet
5-cars: 192 standard and 50 first class seats:242 seats per train, 5566 steats total in feet

Across the whole 222 fleet, there are therefore 6,934 seats

There will be 33 810s, all 5 car
they will have 254 standard and 47 first class seats, giving 301 seats per train, or 9,933 across the fleet

In short, there will be an uplift from 6,934 seats across the fleet to 9,933 seats, so about 3,000 extra seats, both by having more trains and more seats per train. If that doesn't qualify as a capacity uplift I don't know what does!

But not in first class!

 

[Rob F]

And that is a comparison with now, which is a severe down grade on what we used to have when we had the 222s AND the HST fleet.

 

[Trainbike46]

And that is a comparison with now, which is a severe down grade on what we used to have when we had the 222s AND the HST fleet.

But remember, part of that fleet was replaced with the 360s, which previously also used the IC diesel fleet

I agree more 810s would be nice, but it really isn't as bad as some people on this thread make it sound. The 810s will be an improvement over the current situation or the situation when the 180s (1148 seats across the 4 units) were still around, and quite a substantial one

But not in first class!

Are the overcrowding issues described in First Class or in Standard?

 

[43066]

Are the overcrowding issues described in First Class or in Standard?

First class is rarely full on the current meridians.

 

[Iskra]

But not in first class!

That’s more due to the current over-provision of First Class, rather than related to any actual demand.

First class is rarely full on the current meridians.

And there are often cheap advances, to try fill those seats, presumably due to spare capacity

 

[43066]

And there are often cheap advances, to try fill those seats, presumably due to spare capacity

Yes. That might change in future, I suppose, if it’s found that 1st on the 810s is regularly overcrowded.

That’s more due to the current over-provision of First Class, rather than related to any actual demand.

Indeed.

 

[Trainman40083]

So since this fleet won't be fully operational for 2 years, is there going to be any thought given on to how to alleviate the chronic overcrowding on the Midland Main Line?

Ever higher fares will result....Just as happened with British Rail, when there was overcrowding.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ever higher fares will result....Just as happened with British Rail, when there was overcrowding.

I am not terribly comfortable with higher fares being used to cope with overcrowding but:- The Elephant in the room is the situation where the majority of the UK population who don't use trains are expected to subsidise full trains for a minority. That minority could perhaps be expected to pay more to use them if they are so popular. I would rather see more trains to satisfy the demand but we cannot keep achieving that by milking the system - where is the money coming from ?.

The reality is not a simple equation - someone somewhere has to pay. Underused branch lines (and bus services) are what should be subsidised. Perhaps the core routes should be profitable enough to support them.

Above is arguably off topic but my point is that in the case of the class 810 fleet. How much more should be spent on extra trains without expecting the passengers to pay for the privilege. Leads one to the conclusion that you put the fares up and see if demand is still enough to justify investment in more trains and infrastructure.

 

[The_Train]

There is 27 222s (23 5-cars and 4 7-cars), with a total seat capacity of:
7-cars: 236 standard and 106 first class seats:342 seats per train, 1368 seats total in fleet
5-cars: 192 standard and 50 first class seats:242 seats per train, 5566 steats total in feet

Across the whole 222 fleet, there are therefore 6,934 seats

There will be 33 810s, all 5 car
they will have 254 standard and 47 first class seats, giving 301 seats per train, or 9,933 across the fleet

In short, there will be an uplift from 6,934 seats across the fleet to 9,933 seats, so about 3,000 extra seats, both by having more trains and more seats per train. If that doesn't qualify as a capacity uplift I don't know what does!

And then with the HSTs?
And how will these 5 car units be utilised? It's all well and good saying we have more seats but not if services that are currently crushed loaded 7 car units become extremely crush loaded 5 car units

 

[Bald Rick]

And how will these 5 car units be utilised? It's all well and good saying we have more seats but not if services that are currently crushed loaded 7 car units become extremely crush loaded 5 car units

Given that first class is rarely full (indeed never, in my regular experience), why would a crush loaded 7 car 222 (236 standard seats) become an extremely crush loaded 810 (254 standard seats)?

And given there are only 4 x 7 car units, don’t you think it is pretty likely that the diagrams these are on would be prioritsed for 2 x 810s (508 standard seats, a 115% increase), given that there are foing to be enough 810s for around half of all services to be double sets? (compared to the 70%+ that are currently 1x5 car).

 

[Richard123]

I am not terribly comfortable with higher fares being used to cope with overcrowding but:- The Elephant in the room is the situation where the majority of the UK population who don't use trains are expected to subsidise full trains for a minority. That minority could perhaps be expected to pay more to use them if they are so popular. I would rather see more trains to satisfy the demand but we cannot keep achieving that by milking the system - where is the money coming from ?.

The reality is not a simple equation - someone somewhere has to pay. Underused branch lines (and bus services) are what should be subsidised. Perhaps the core routes should be profitable enough to support them.

Above is arguably off topic but my point is that in the case of the class 810 fleet. How much more should be spent on extra trains without expecting the passengers to pay for the privilege. Leads one to the conclusion that you put the fares up and see if demand is still enough to justify investment in more trains and infrastructure.

It's an argument, but not the only perspective.

For example, under privatisation, much railway "spending" by government has been authorising borrowing, rather than the roads model where the taxpayer provides the money upfront.

£4bn a year of subsidy is actually just interest on that debt on spending claimed by government as their investment. Net that off and railway finances look very different!

 

[Bald Rick]

For example, under privatisation, much railway "spending" by government has been authorising borrowing, rather than the roads model where the taxpayer provides the money upfront.

Except that the majority of that authorised borrowing - Network Rail’s to be specific, is now Government debt. 2% of it. And there are several road schemes where the taxpayer has not provided the money up front: various big bridges and the M6 toll obviously, but also parts of the A1(M), A50, A19 and other projects.

 

[WesternLancer]

Given that first class is rarely full (indeed never, in my regular experience), why would a crush loaded 7 car 222 (236 standard seats) become an extremely crush loaded 810 (254 standard seats)?

I would say that EMT regularly filled lots of 1st class seats and this was with full HST rakes, by pricing it right - EMR came along and stopped pricing 1st class sat suitable discounted prices and ran them with lots of empty setas - and still do. EMR are thus poor at getting the yield price right for the market - and happy to see std class crush loaded.

EMR are hopeless at so many levels.

Not a single train interior refurbed yet, not a single 222 seat cushion in stad class made acceptably comfortable - train I was in on saturday (222) had upholstery rips and tears repaired by gaffa tape....

EMR, IMHO, are up there with Connex South Central for the most shockingly bad train interior experience I have had the displeasure to travel on.

They are a disgrace.

 

[Mikw]

I would say that EMT regularly filled lots of 1st class seats and this was with full HST rakes, by pricing it right - EMR came along and stopped pricing 1st class sat suitable discounted prices and ran them with lots of empty setas - and still do. EMR are thus poor at getting the yield price right for the market - and happy to see std class crush loaded.

EMR are hopeless at so many levels.

Not a single train interior refurbed yet, not a single 222 seat cushion in stad class made acceptably comfortable - train I was in on saturday (222) had upholstery rips and tears repaired by gaffa tape....

EMR, IMHO, are up there with Connex South Central for the most shockingly bad train interior experience I have had the displeasure to travel on.

They are a disgrace.

I don't think they're that bad, compared to TPE (and some of the others) they're performance figures are very decent.
And they're very hamstrung by the DFT when it comes to refurbs.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't think they're that bad, compared to TPE (and some of the others) they're performance figures are very decent.
And they're very hamstrung by the DFT when it comes to refurbs.

They are indeed hamstrung by the DfT - but the DfT approved a franchise bid that said all their stock would be refurbed, and the Dft insist on the fares they charge for very poor quality trains. A few years ago the trains were in better condition, cleaned better etc. The fares have gone up - the quality of service gone down.

Fare paying passengers don't care a jot if this is EMR or DfT's fault, and taxpayers paying subsidy should not care either.

Performance figs are a different matter of course.

 

[Mikw]

They are indeed hamstrung by the DfT - but the DfT approved a franchise bid that said all their stock would be refurbed, and the Dft insist on the fares they charge for very poor quality trains. A few years ago the trains were in better condition, cleaned better etc. The fares have gone up - the quality of service gone down.

Fare paying passengers don't care a jot if this is EMR or DfT's fault, and taxpayers paying subsidy should not care either.

Performance figs are a different matter of course.

Fare paying passengers may not "care a jot" but we know why the refurb situation is the way it is.
I would also venture as to suggest that most fare paying passengers are not even aware there was a proposed refurb, the single most important thing for them is the train turns up and gets them to where they've paid to be - and they're better than some tocs in this respect.

 

[Trainbike46]

And then with the HSTs?
And how will these 5 car units be utilised? It's all well and good saying we have more seats but not if services that are currently crushed loaded 7 car units become extremely crush loaded 5 car units

I can't easily figure out how many seats were on the HST fleet

EMR replaced part of the IC fleet with the 360s, so comparing seat numbers with before those were in service is kind of pointless anyway

I would presume that EMR would use double sets for the busiest services

As I stated before, I would have liked them to have slightly more 810s, but to pretend that the 810s will be a capacity downgrade (as certain posters were doing upthread) is clearly nonsense

 

[43096]

I can't easily figure out how many seats were on the HST fleet

The 2+8 sets were 111 first class, 357 standard. There were nine sets in the fleet, of which eight were diagrammed on weekdays.

 

[WesternLancer]

Fare paying passengers may not "care a jot" but we know why the refurb situation is the way it is.
I would also venture as to suggest that most fare paying passengers are not even aware there was a proposed refurb, the single most important thing for them is the train turns up and gets them to where they've paid to be - and they're better than some tocs in this respect.

Of course you are correct about the importance of non cancellations / timekeeping - but people do notice the poor internal state. Plenty of people I know who are not otherwise overly interested in railways do comment on it. It's across the whole fleet of course, not just the inter city services.