Elizabeth Line - future extensions?

[William3000]

With the apparent huge success of Crossrail/Elizabeth Line with ridership exceeding forecasts, is there any scope or potential for any future extensions or new routes? Or is the line at completely full capacity, or are there logistically reasons why this wouldn’t be possible such as a lack of stabling, platform capacity etc.

Eastwards there is a new station being built at Beaulieu Park, Chelmsford - could there be justification for extending from Sheffield? Reading is still further out from London than Shenfield. Or what about Abbey Wood being extended to Dartford or Ebbsfleet international?

 

[CarrotPie]

With the apparent huge success of Crossrail/Elizabeth Line with ridership exceeding forecasts, is there any scope or potential for any future extensions or new routes? Or is the line at completely full capacity, or are there logistically reasons why this wouldn’t be possible such as a lack of stabling, platform capacity etc.

Eastwards there is a new station being built at Beaulieu Park, Chelmsford - could there be justification for extending from Sheffield? Reading is still further out from London than Shenfield. Or what about Abbey Wood being extended to Dartford or Ebbsfleet international?

On that latter point, that would require one of three difficult things:

• New AC tracks all the way out through dense suburban London (very expensive)
• AC electrification on existing lines (expensive and various electric problems, possible capacity problems at Dartford)
• Adding juice gear to the the 345s (cheapest and least disruptive option, but still expensive)

All of them would be expensive and would face funding and regulatory hurdles, and are thus very unlikely to happen in the short- to medium-term.

 

[JonathanH]

With the apparent huge success of Crossrail/Elizabeth Line with ridership exceeding forecasts, is there any scope or potential for any future extensions or new routes?

If ridership is exceeding expectations it would make more sense to concentrate on its current routes not extend them.

 

[William3000]

If ridership is exceeding expectations it would make more sense to concentrate on its current routes not extend them.

Yes quite possibly. I was just interested to know whether any future proofing for extensions had been considered

 

[JonathanH]

Yes quite possibly. I was just interested to know whether any future proofing for extensions had been considered

Previous thread here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ces-be-improved-extended.249158/#post-6232482

The question you asked was also posed ten years ago - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crossrail-any-benefit-extending-eastwards.93324/#post-1638158

Operationally, terminating at Shenfield and Abbey Wood makes a lot of sense, in keeping the service segregated from other traffic and therefore not transferring delays into the core. The west side fails badly on that point from time to time.

 

[zwk500]

Yes quite possibly. I was just interested to know whether any future proofing for extensions had been considered

AFAIK the only future extension seriously considered is to Dartford. And that would require a reconfiguration of the current engineering connection at Abbey Wood, finding capacity, and resolving the different in power supply vs collection systems.

 

[JonathanH]

AFAIK the only future extension seriously considered is to Dartford. And that would require a reconfiguration of the current engineering connection at Abbey Wood, finding capacity, and resolving the different in power supply vs collection systems.

Not to mention a rebuild of Dartford station.

 

[mangyiscute]

The west side fails badly on that point from time to time.

In fairness to the west side the main issue tends to be when there's an issue affecting the whole GWML between Reading and London, the only trains that share the relief lines are the Didcot semi fasts which are very rarely disrupted unless there's disruption between Reading and London somewhere (in which case they are usually curtailed to only run Reading to Didcot).
Therefore, you get issues when one line is shut so the slow and fast services all have to go onto the same line. I imagine this could be the case between Stratford and Shenfield, but for whatever reason the GWML just seems to have a lot of disruption on this stretch recently (which I know has been discussed in detail elsewhere).
So ultimately, the reliability issue imo is just that that section of line is currently quite unreliable, it isn't affected by issues elsewhere on the GWR network.

 

[D365]

Eastwards there is a new station being built at Beaulieu Park, Chelmsford - could there be justification for extending from Sheffield?

 

[Class93]

Bifurcation of the lines on the opposite side of OOC up the Acton to Northolt line, easy doubling up of tracks, electrification also up to Denham possibly to High Wycombe.. stops at Park Royal, Greenford, Ruislip Gardens, West Ruislip and so on…

This particular stretch is poorly served by Marylebone irregular stoppers and I bet you’d easily be able to find 4TPH up there. Also helps increase more services through the core by finding somewhere else to terminate them.

 

[William3000]

Bifurcation of the lines on the opposite side of OOC up the Acton to Northolt line, easy doubling up of tracks, electrification also up to Denham possibly to High Wycombe.. stops at Park Royal, Greenford, Ruislip Gardens, West Ruislip and so on…

This particular stretch is poorly served by Marylebone irregular stoppers and I bet you’d easily be able to find 4TPH up there. Also helps increase more services through the core by finding somewhere else to terminate them.

That makes sense and deals with the lack of platform capacity at London Marylebone

 

[JonathanH]

That makes sense and deals with the lack of platform capacity at London Marylebone

There is a lot of discussion in previous threads about extensions onto the Chiltern line. It can't be done as there is no scope for a link between the GWML relief lines and the line via Park Royal given the way Old Oak Common has been designed.

Also helps increase more services through the core by finding somewhere else to terminate them.

Is that a concern? Old Oak Common will become the 'somewhere else' to terminate Elizabeth Line services in due course.

This particular stretch is poorly served by Marylebone irregular stoppers and I bet you’d easily be able to find 4TPH up there.

A lot of work for 4tph.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/extending-crossrail-up-the-chiltern-mainline.205418/ and other threads.

 

[LBMPSB]

Not to mention a rebuild of Dartford station.

The Dartford station site is notoriously cramped. It was originally built with only three platforms, with the fourth squeezed later on because of demand. Its London approaches are on an embankment with little scoop of widening. The best way would be to relocate and build a completely new station, possibly towards the country, utilising the Up & Down sidngs area with station building on site of old Signal Box. Two through platforms and some terminating Platforms for trains from London.

A very radical idea would be to extend from Abbey Wood, maybe space for separate Lizzy lines from North Kent ones, to Belvedere into a new Thames Tunnel. The North kent lines turn right here to Erith. The New Thames Tunnel would take the Lizzy Lines from Belvedere, under the River Thames and surface in Essex, turn right into Purfleet- On-Thames and a station built alongside HS1 for the huge shopping complex at Lakeside, it would then run onto HS1, go under the Thames and surface at Ebbsfleet and onto Gravesend.

Alternatively, instead of the HS1 option, which still has TVM430 signalling an option not available to Lizzy line units, come out of the New Thames Tunnel and join the LTS line into Purfleet Station and on to Tilbury.

 

[steeevooo]

The Dartford station site is notoriously cramped. It was originally built with only three platforms, with the fourth squeezed later on because of demand. Its London approaches are on an embankment with little scoop of widening. The best way would be to relocate and build a completely new station, possibly towards the country, utilising the Up & Down sidngs area with station building on site of old Signal Box. Two through platforms and some terminating Platforms for trains from London.

A very radical idea would be to extend from Abbey Wood, maybe space for separate Lizzy lines from North Kent ones, to Belvedere into a new Thames Tunnel. The North kent lines turn right here to Erith. The New Thames Tunnel would take the Lizzy Lines from Belvedere, under the River Thames and surface in Essex, turn right into Purfleet- On-Thames and a station built alongside HS1 for the huge shopping complex at Lakeside, it would then run onto HS1, go under the Thames and surface at Ebbsfleet and onto Gravesend.

Alternatively, instead of the HS1 option, which still has TVM430 signalling an option not available to Lizzy line units, come out of the New Thames Tunnel and join the LTS line into Purfleet Station and on to Tilbury.

Apart from people going from Kent to Lakeside shopping centre (and home again), who would this actually benefit for the incredible cost that it would incur?

 

[mr_jrt]

There is a lot of discussion in previous threads about extensions onto the Chiltern line. It can't be done as there is no scope for a link between the GWML relief lines and the line via Park Royal given the way Old Oak Common has been designed.

The original plans had the up relief flying over the lines to Park Royal, to cut costs this was later deleted. In theory, it would be hugely disruptive, but you could probably build that flyover by sacrificing the turnback sidings to some temporary track geometry whilst you built it, so not impossible, just highly improbable.

 

[cle]

Bifurcation of the lines on the opposite side of OOC up the Acton to Northolt line, easy doubling up of tracks, electrification also up to Denham possibly to High Wycombe.. stops at Park Royal, Greenford, Ruislip Gardens, West Ruislip and so on…

This particular stretch is poorly served by Marylebone irregular stoppers and I bet you’d easily be able to find 4TPH up there. Also helps increase more services through the core by finding somewhere else to terminate them.

But you've just described the Central Line. With Crossrail at Ealing Broadway, it's already a little wanting at its western end, you would render the other branch completely pointless!

If there was a NNL/Crossrail/Chltern anything, I would definitely think first stop a Ruislip, providing a faster journey to the outer locations in Bucks and Oxfordshire. Park Royal if the interchange had ever been done. Nowhere else is especially important, and let's not really think of Greenford as an interchange.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Eastwards there is a new station being built at Beaulieu Park, Chelmsford - could there be justification for extending from Sheffield?

Excellent, branch off the mainline at Acton onto the New North Mainline as far as Grendon Underwood then Great Central all the way - via Nottingham Victoria of course. Watkin would be proud.

 

[Meerkat]

But you've just described the Central Line. With Crossrail at Ealing Broadway, it's already a little wanting at its western end, you would render the other branch completely pointless!

If there was a NNL/Crossrail/Chltern anything, I would definitely think first stop a Ruislip, providing a faster journey to the outer locations in Bucks and Oxfordshire. Park Royal if the interchange had ever been done. Nowhere else is especially important, and let's not really think of Greenford as an interchange.

Add batteries to some Central Line stock, extend it to Gerrards Cross (the bridges were built to allow that weren't they?) and OOC and run Gerrards Cross - OOC shuttles.
Shut the remaining Chiltern inner stops.

 

[Class93]

But you've just described the Central Line.

Ealing Broadway, Acton, Paddington, through the centre of London to Stratford… the same as the rest of present crossrail!

 

[Bald Rick]

With the apparent huge success of Crossrail/Elizabeth Line with ridership exceeding forecasts

Growth has indeed been quicker than anticipated (probably due to the deferred opening)…

is there any scope or potential for any future extensions or new routes?

… but as the line is busy, spending lots of money to squeeze more passengers on to very busy trains diesnt seem sensible.

Yes quite possibly. I was just interested to know whether any future proofing for extensions had been considered

The only future proofing is through platforms at Abbey Wood and 1 track extending through to the North Kent Line. Personally i cant see any extension beyond Abbey Wood; it would be ruinously expensive.

 

[AlastairFraser]

With the apparent huge success of Crossrail/Elizabeth Line with ridership exceeding forecasts, is there any scope or potential for any future extensions or new routes? Or is the line at completely full capacity, or are there logistically reasons why this wouldn’t be possible such as a lack of stabling, platform capacity etc.

Eastwards there is a new station being built at Beaulieu Park, Chelmsford - could there be justification for extending from Sheffield? Reading is still further out from London than Shenfield. Or what about Abbey Wood being extended to Dartford or Ebbsfleet international?

Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet would definitely be a good idea, especially if Eurostar started stopping there again - the only significant issues would be power supply, the interaction with the North Kent lines and the bottleneck at Dartford station.
One way around the most significant problem (power supply) would be to consider fitting traction batteries to the Class 345, which would ideally charge on a short layover at Ebbsfleet.

The other two main issues would require significant investment, but they are not insurmountable.
If the proposed theme park (London Resort) is built on the nearby Swanscombe Peninsula, perhaps the developers would provide a S106 contribution as the planned route would pass through Swanscombe station close by.

I can't see any extension east from Shenfield being feasible - there are already good-quality train services to most of Essex and an Elizabeth Line extension would use a sizeable chunk of the limited capacity on the Great Eastern Main Line.

As for the western end, extending from Old Oak Common towards High Wycombe via Greenford would be ideal, but unfortunately is now very difficult to construct (due to the design of Old Oak Common's HS2 station, as others have mentioned).

An interesting idea I hadn't considered before would be extending west from Heathrow Terminal 5 via a tunnel to Poyle, to emerge on the trackbed of the Staines and West Drayton Railway (the line is still extant from Poyle to West Drayton), and rejoin the Great Western Main Line relief tracks at West Drayton.
This would allow trains to return to the Crossrail route without reversing at Heathrow, while providing a budget alternative to the Heathrow Western Access plan (an easy change at West Drayton from the west.)

 

[zwk500]

Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet would definitely be a good idea, especially if Eurostar started stopping there again - the only significant issues would be power supply, the interaction with the North Kent lines and the bottleneck at Dartford station.
One way around the most significant problem (power supply) would be to consider fitting traction batteries to the Class 345, which would ideally charge on a short layover at Ebbsfleet.

There'd be a bit of an issue with going to Ebbsfleet as the line through Dartford doesn't reach Ebbsfleet International - the nearest station is Northfleet, and the junctions face the wrong way.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There'd be a bit of an issue with going to Ebbsfleet as the line through Dartford doesn't reach Ebbsfleet International - the nearest station is Northfleet, and the junctions face the wrong way.

Yes, you'd have to build just under a km of new track, from a junction after Swanscombe station to Ebbsfleet.
As I said, it would mean sizeable investment, but the London Resort plan and/or Eurostar stopping at Ebbsfleet again could justify the spend.

 

[cle]

Ealing Broadway, Acton, Paddington, through the centre of London to Stratford… the same as the rest of present crossrail!

Well yes - and certainly at the western end, it is probably over-capacity west of Shepherds Bush/White City. Creative minds, of which we have many, could maybe do more things with it. Uxbridge was mentioned for a while, but I would suggest that is also served plenty.

I suspect Crossrail is baked for now. I would focus more on improving the Dartford Lines - including good feed to Abbey Wood and simplifying (bye TL Rainham) - and gradually trying to send more services west of OOC. Hayes has a bay, West Drayton has a turnback, LHR can take more - and incrementally push it that way, if possible. And build tons more TODs.

 

[mangyiscute]

An interesting idea I hadn't considered before would be extending west from Heathrow Terminal 5 via a tunnel to Poyle, to emerge on the trackbed of the Staines and West Drayton Railway (the line is still extant from Poyle to West Drayton), and rejoin the Great Western Main Line relief tracks at West Drayton.
This would allow trains to return to the Crossrail route without reversing at Heathrow, while providing a budget alternative to the Heathrow Western Access plan (an easy change at West Drayton from the west.)

But what would this achieve - the point of the western link is to provide trains direct from Heathrow to the west, there's already an easy change at Hayes & Harlington and moving this to West Drayton wouldn't change anything.

 

[AlastairFraser]

But what would this achieve - the point of the western link is to provide trains direct from Heathrow to the west, there's already an easy change at Hayes & Harlington and moving this to West Drayton wouldn't change anything.

It'd be a same platform change, rather than the change required at H and H.
Also, with planning, you could send some westbound trains round the loop via T5 first, which would be an improvement.

 

[Bald Rick]

An interesting idea I hadn't considered before would be extending west from Heathrow Terminal 5 via a tunnel to Poyle, to emerge on the trackbed of the Staines and West Drayton Railway (the line is still extant from Poyle to West Drayton), and rejoin the Great Western Main Line relief tracks at West Drayton.

How is that a ‘budget’ alternative to Western Access? It would cost about the same, and be far less useful.

 

[wanderingriver]

https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-extension/widgets/83880/faqs#question23059 TfL did mention that Abbey Wood to Hoo Junction was safe guarded for a potential extension in the FAQs of the DLR extension

 

[AlastairFraser]

How is that a ‘budget’ alternative to Western Access? It would cost about the same, and be far less useful.

Cost about the same? You'd only require a roughly 2km tunnel from Poyle to T5, whereas with the Western Approach a 5.5km tunnel is planned.
Less useful? Perhaps, but we have had several major transport investments in the area recently and we shouldn't keep going for the "gold standard" option (unless Heathrow is paying, of course).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Well yes - and certainly at the western end, it is probably over-capacity west of Shepherds Bush/White City. Creative minds, of which we have many, could maybe do more things with it. Uxbridge was mentioned for a while, but I would suggest that is also served plenty.

I suspect Crossrail is baked for now. I would focus more on improving the Dartford Lines - including good feed to Abbey Wood and simplifying (bye TL Rainham) - and gradually trying to send more services west of OOC. Hayes has a bay, West Drayton has a turnback, LHR can take more - and incrementally push it that way, if possible. And build tons more TODs.

TODs?