'Circle to Search Line' and Samsung ads

[vuzzeho]

From what I have read, this one doesn't change the station name and the Circle Line direction signage is still recognisable and pointing in the correct direction. Diamond Geezer raised some objections about possible confusion when the circular map replaces the normal one, but I don't think this is in the same league as essentially obliterating the identity of Bond Street.

From what I remember at KXSP, the circular map doesn't actually replace the normal one. The normal ones are all still there. Also, the Circle to Search Line signs are opposite the existing, real H&S/Met/Circle line signs, not replacing.

 

[bluegoblin7]

There is at least one poster map at KXX, on the northbound Victoria line platform, which has been replaced by a branded one.

I was on board with this takeover, which uses existing advertising placements, until spotting this. The map may be accurate, but it isn’t familiar.

 

[Thirteen]

Can you elaborate as to why it’s clear; is there an obvious visual indication on the “signage” itself?

The Samsung logo and the various S24s is the big clue.

The wrap arounds on the Victoria Tube Station entrance is quite cool.

 

[jupiter]

I think it’s a great and usable representation of the tube system, I like it.

 

[185]

For tourists, this kind of rubbish makes navigating the network impossible.

London Underground is was perhaps the world leader in clear, concise information, and looking at the rubbish on dirty foreign metro systems we had something to be proud of. This rubbish belongs on page six of the metro or in an over-urinal poster case in a wetherspoons toilet, along with the TfL managers who approved it.

 

[Busaholic]

So TfL shouldn't have any adverts whatsoever then? It would quickly go bankrupt if that was the case.

They've always had adverts. You were always able to distinguish between adverts and the essential information provided by the transport operator, which should never be compromised. If TfL were allowed to become bankrupt as a result of not being able to generate sufficient income from advertising, it would be a pathetically sad indication of the way this country increasingly leads the world in devaluing its institutions in pursuit of the ideology of private greed masquerading as sound economy.

 

[D7666]

I was in two minds about all this and decided to wait until I saw any of the things myself.

I am sure there are numerous other, and better , pics than this, but this is my mobile phone pic from Blackfriars yesterday

bfr circle 060224

Blackfriars "circle" thingy

www.flickr.com

I like the concept, and can see why TfL want revenue from such high profile stuff, but it is a somewhat baffling diagram if one has been used to the traditional map for the past +50 years that I can remember of it. The gap - railway wise - in the centre where the logo is - is disorientating as that is exactly where you expect to find the central City and West End stations, not in rings around it.

On the whole, high impact advert, and probably positive for attention and revenue - - - but NBG as a rail map

As for items at Blackfriars, I prefer the other end of the concourse :

bfr LCDR 060224

Blackfriars station LCDR stone wall mural

www.flickr.com

 

[bramling]

So, for the Galaxy S24 series, Samsung has redone King's Cross St Pancras (and some other stations, I'm sure) with promo about its new circle to search feature with 'Galaxy AI'. This includes vinyls which seem like wayfinding signs (down to the font!) pointing towards the 'Circle to Search Line' and an entire, circular, Tube map. I could see a couple travellers get confused looking at the Tube map, but generally I don't think this is as bad as the 'Burberry Street' thing we had a while ago. The Tube map, confusing in its layout, is actually accurate from what I saw (in terms of stops and things) and the 'Circle to Search Line' signs do actually point towards the Circle line platforms. Also, the regular wayfinding is still up. On a tech nerd level, it's interesting that this is the feature Samsung is so heavily advertising, as the Pixel 8 will receive it same-day as the S24s. Here's an image of it though - sorry about the text, I just ripped it from my Instagram.

Saw this tonight, and wondered what on earth it was. So perhaps good at getting attention, but another example of TFL debasing itself on a way which could certainly confuse people. So overall not impressed.

 

[Busaholic]

May I not so respectfully suggest that the person at TfL who makes the final decisions on these things seeks a new job in charge of the Hampton Court Maze where his/her talents might be seen to better advantage and acclaim?

 

[Thirteen]

I'm clearly the only person who thinks brand partnerships for TfL work quite well. I'm guessing the misery guts want no brands on any TfL network whatsoever.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I’m all for brand partnerships and there’s been some very effective ones over the years - pre-dating TfL, even.

But I’m not in favour of anything that reduces or replaces transport usability. Unfortunately that is exactly what this campaign is doing - see attached, where an ordinary Tube map has been replaced by advertising.

Is this acceptable?

 

[D7666]

I’m all for brand partnerships and there’s been some very effective ones over the years - pre-dating TfL, even.

But I’m not in favour of anything that reduces or replaces transport usability. Unfortunately that is exactly what this campaign is doing - see attached, where an ordinary Tube map has been replaced by advertising.

Is this acceptable?

NO

No way. That is wrong.

The Blackfriars thing I posted yesterday is pretty obviously a gimmick; what is in your image will only confuse as placed like that it looks like what the real thing is supposed to be doing.

Part of the problem in discussing issues of this sort in THIS or other anorak forum is exactly that - we are anoraks - therefore we already know what a tube map looks like and to see this thing we know it is wrong. The average alert Londoner may not be fooled either. But those not familiar with it, all those tourists and visitors, could be fooled. And that is before one goes into those with possible cognitive difficulties. You all know it is a gimmick advert, the "normals" do not and "normals" are not in this forum.

 

[bspahh]

I’m all for brand partnerships and there’s been some very effective ones over the years - pre-dating TfL, even.

But I’m not in favour of anything that reduces or replaces transport usability. Unfortunately that is exactly what this campaign is doing - see attached, where an ordinary Tube map has been replaced by advertising.

Is this acceptable?

Is that a normal tube map 50cm to the left?

I don't think they should replace the normal tube maps with the circular ones. I think its fine to have them as well as the standard ones.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm clearly the only person who thinks brand partnerships for TfL work quite well. I'm guessing the misery guts want no brands on any TfL network whatsoever.

Work well for whom? This is public transport, for the public, even ones with guts full of misery, it's not a plaything for juveniles. The only brand worth having here is TfL's, which should speak for itself. Advertising space is another matter and obviously evolves over the years. There should be quite clear red lines from the top of Underground management, if such a thing exists any more.

 

[Thirteen]

Work well for whom? This is public transport, for the public, even ones with guts full of misery, it's not a plaything for juveniles. The only brand worth having here is TfL's, which should speak for itself. Advertising space is another matter and obviously evolves over the years. There should be quite clear red lines from the top of Underground management, if such a thing exists any more.

So things like the PlayStation campaign and Star Trek campaign would have been rejected under your watch.

I assume you don't want buses wrapped in ad vinyl either.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Is that a normal tube map 50cm to the left?

I don't think they should replace the normal tube maps with the circular ones. I think its fine to have them as well as the standard ones.

No, it’s a London Rail map.

As you’ll see, at the top right of the poster frame there is a yellow label saying ‘Map’. This is a frame designated for a Tube map. It isn’t the only one that’s been replaced, and others don’t have any kind of map nearby.

Taking over numerous advertising hoardings is one thing. This is entirely different.

(Incidentally it’s nice to see the ‘Map’ label I put there in 2016 is still going strong, along with many others at the station. My industrial label maker showing its worth. )

 

[CarrotPie]

I’m all for brand partnerships and there’s been some very effective ones over the years - pre-dating TfL, even.

But I’m not in favour of anything that reduces or replaces transport usability. Unfortunately that is exactly what this campaign is doing - see attached, where an ordinary Tube map has been replaced by advertising.

Is this acceptable?

I'd argue just - while it replaces the standard Tube map, it is reasonably obvious (your mileage may differ) that it's advertising, and, crucially for me, it still functions as a Tube map, if a bit harder to use. TfL obviously need the money at the moment anyway. I don't approve of the "Circle to Search line" stickers though, because that's something else entirely (different function to the normal signs and confusing for non-native English speakers).

 

[bluegoblin7]

I'd argue just - while it replaces the standard Tube map, it is reasonably obvious (your mileage may differ) that it's advertising, and, crucially for me, it still functions as a Tube map, if a bit harder to use. TfL obviously need the money at the moment anyway. I don't approve of the "Circle to Search line" stickers though, because that's something else entirely (different function to the normal signs and confusing for non-native English speakers).

Except it doesn’t:
-No zones
-No LO, EL, Trams, DLR
-Places in geographically different places to usual

It may be just about usable at a basic level, but - to use your own words - it is a different function to the normal signs and confusing for non-native Londoners, being completely different to every other Tube map.

The stickers are actually better as they still provide the key optical recognition of yellow (for Circle line) and both ‘Circle’ and ‘line’. Many non-native speakers use the colours to navigate, not the words.

 

[Thirteen]

What brand partnerships would work on the Underground and TfL network overall without upsetting the anoraks? The way I would do is to have certain brands be like official partners similar to sports events so Google Pay could be the technology and payment partner for example

 

[bluegoblin7]

What brand partnerships would work on the Underground and TfL network overall without upsetting the anoraks?

The PlayStation takeover was an excellent example of what can work whilst not diminishing usability. The aforementioned yellow pages C stock, and other all over Tube adverts, are also fine. This would be fine if it wasn’t replacing actual Tube maps.

Also at least three people commenting here (one of which is myself) are LU staff who have to deal with the consequences of these takeovers.

As I’ve said repeatedly: anything that doesn’t detract from the usability of the transport network should be welcomed.

 

[D7666]

Also at least three people commenting here (one of which is myself) are LU staff who

Myself included (as bluegoblin knows )

You will confuse and or upset the armchair warriors with info like that !!!!

 

[bramling]

The PlayStation takeover was an excellent example of what can work whilst not diminishing usability. The aforementioned yellow pages C stock, and other all over Tube adverts, are also fine. This would be fine if it wasn’t replacing actual Tube maps.

Whilst I actually quite liked the Yellow Pages train, it wasn’t entirely all fine and sweet, as I seem to recall getting the train back into corporate livery after the deal ended turned out to be quite a headache, as whilst the adverts were vinyl, they were applied on top of a base layer of yellow paint, which naturally was left over when the vinyls came off!

ISTR there was also the issue that the deal gave some kind of commitment that the train would be maintained on Circle Line work as far as possible, which I’d imagine was a thorough nuisance for both fleet staff and service control.

 

[edwin_m]

Wraps for LU trains may be more difficult now than when the Yellow Pages one was done. The doors have to be distinguishable to the visually impaired, which probably rules out having any graphics on them. Most of the time when the side of the train is visible to the target market, the doors are open and (for all but the Bakerloo and Piccadilly stock) conceal most of the rest of the bodyside.

 

[CarrotPie]

Wraps for LU trains may be more difficult now than when the Yellow Pages one was done. The doors have to be distinguishable to the visually impaired, which probably rules out having any graphics on them. Most of the time when the side of the train is visible to the target market, the doors are open and (for all but the Bakerloo and Piccadilly stock) conceal most of the rest of the bodyside.

I don't know if it would work in the UK, but here in Helsinki our metro system gets around the rules with a white line around the doors (see below, not my photo). However, all the doors open at all stations, which makes them a lot easier to distinguish (big hole in the side of the train). The point about the externally-hung doors is a good one though, and potentially a show-stopper for full-train ads. The wraps here are only done on the pocket door fleet.

 

[lawried123]

I arrived at Kings Cross from the Met and saw two posters saying To Circle Line to Search and had no idea what they were referring to. I've never seen this new map so not knowing what the sign refers to just confuses everyone.

Lawrie

 

[AndrewP]

Saw this at Kings Cross circle line the other day and it just looked like clever advertising to me - not likely to be confused with normal information

The circle maps are gimmicky but they do actually work so whilst not as intuitive as the originals they do actually work.

No complaints from me on this one

 

[Boff]

Interesting video from Jago Hazzard on the advertising:

 

[Busaholic]

What brand partnerships would work on the Underground and TfL network overall without upsetting the anoraks? The way I would do is to have certain brands be like official partners similar to sports events so Google Pay could be the technology and payment partner for example

I don't regard myself as an anorak, and I certainly wouldn't be accepted as one by others who are, as I don't have any tolerance for masochism. I do, however, have a huge respect for civic values, amongst which I'd include London's public transport system, public libraries, etc and hate to see them debased by whatever the so-called 'trendies' think is 'cool.' TfL is not part of the advertising industry and shouldn't think it is:it's there to provide transport services to the general population as efficiently and best as it can. No brand partnerships should be created in my view; in any case the amounts of money generated here are peanuts compared to rhe serious, grown-up work of negotiating and securing from the government the huge sums necessary to provide even minimally acceptable levels of service which would be recognised by the vast majority of other capital cities.

 

[Thirteen]

I don't regard myself as an anorak, and I certainly wouldn't be accepted as one by others who are, as I don't have any tolerance for masochism. I do, however, have a huge respect for civic values, amongst which I'd include London's public transport system, public libraries, etc and hate to see them debased by whatever the so-called 'trendies' think is 'cool.' TfL is not part of the advertising industry and shouldn't think it is:it's there to provide transport services to the general population as efficiently and best as it can. No brand partnerships should be created in my view; in any case the amounts of money generated here are peanuts compared to rhe serious, grown-up work of negotiating and securing from the government the huge sums necessary to provide even minimally acceptable levels of service which would be recognised by the vast majority of other capital cities.

TfL and its predecessors had brand partnerships even when they had funding so having no billboards, brand partnerships or sponsorship at all is not going to happen.

I don't get why branding upsets people so much. We have Santander cycles as well as the IFS cable car and nobody bats an eyelid and in other places like NY, things have sponsorship on the hire bikes and other places have branded trains.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Burberry Street thing wasn't implemented as sympathetically as this one- it replaced the vast majority of signage within the station and on maps elsewhere, so was a bit more likely to cause confusion. I'm pleased to see that some lessons have been learned and taken on board. On the other hand for Brits it was obvious that Burberry Street was a Burberry promotion, whereas the "Circle to Search" doesn't directly reference the brand it's promoting (though AIUI the brand was fairly prominent in many of the altered posters and signage).

I do wonder if the reputation of the Burberry brand (despite their efforts to reclaim their upmarket position, many including myself associate the Burberry brand with chavs and closed factories) has contributed to the hostility that campaign received. Samsung don't quite have that toxic association (though their insistence on stuffing their phones with pointless OEM apps are incredibly frustrating).

On the Arsenal/Gillespie Road thing, these days Finsbury Park is just as convenient for games at Ashburton Grove, but I've no real problem with the station being called Arsenal- it's been that for ages now... and if Prague can have tram stops called Sparta and Slavia for the football teams of the same names, then why can't London?