London Overground line names announced

[Horizon22]

Theyll struggle to fit all the new lines on the Whiteboards/TV screens/PIS displays, i suspect that problem is here too stay

Yes that is also a downside. I mentioned earlier than each method has its downsides.

 

[Winthorpe]

Windrush, absolutely fine. But shouldn't we also place equal status to other generations who migrated to London. None of the lines are named after the Irish navvies who built much of Britain's railways, or the Scots or Welsh who moved to London to work on the railways. Then there's the Indian, Pakistan & Chinese who make London such a great place to live and work. Not forgetting people of South Asian heritage who are the pillars of the NHS in London.

This is the point rather than it being woke or whatever. These things are so transient.

Every group was persecuted once.

I do think attitude is better to remember and reflect, but move on. You know rather than entrenching never ending grievances.

 

[Sorcerer]

Does the Jubiliee line, or Elizabeth line, or Metropolitan line, or Diatrict line do that? No.

But they were named that way naturally such as after an event such as the Jubilee Line for the Silver Jubilee, the Elizabeth Line for the longest serving monarchy, Metropolitan Line having evolved from the Metropolitan Railway (that is now the oldest underground railway in the world) or simply a District of lines. Whereas these names were intended to assist passengers in working out where they are and where they are going. But if you aren't aware of the history of the Windrush Generation and the significance of the area the namesake line serves, how will you know that's where the line will take you? How will anyone who has no interest in football know where the Lioness Line will take them? How is anyone who has never heard of Mildmay Hospital going to know where the Mildmay Line will take them?

The truth is, these names were picked for political point-scoring, and you can see that based on the choices of names. The Mildmay line for a hospital valued by the LGBT community, the Suffragette line for the suffragettes, the Lioness Line for the women's football team, the Windrush and Weaver line for migrant communities. It's good for recognition, but it doesn't work for helping passengers whose only concerns are getting where they want to be. Some names are better than others, and you can have your own opinions on them, but to pretend like they were done to help passengers figure out where they are and are going is disingenuous for the reasons I've stated.

 

[bramling]

rather than entrenching never ending grievances.

Very good point in my view. Shouldn't we be looking to *improve* London's rail services, as well as life in London in general, rather than - as you quite rightly put - entrench grievance. The difficulty is that when one looks back at the mayoralty, it's hard to find examples where genuine improvements have been made. Much as he's become somewhat discredited over time, and rightly so, at least Ken Livingstone actually had ideas. TFL nowadays seems to fail to deliver on so many levels, as I'm sure Central Line users know only too well, to give just one example.

 

[PGAT]

Very good point in my view. Shouldn't we be looking to *improve* London's rail services, as well as life in London in general, rather than - as you quite rightly put - entrench grievance. The difficulty is that when one looks back at the mayoralty, it's hard to find examples where genuine improvements have been made. Much as he's become somewhat discredited over time, and rightly so, at least Ken Livingstone actually had ideas. TFL nowadays seems to fail to deliver on so many levels, as I'm sure Central Line users know only too well, to give just one example.

Are you having a laugh?

 

[Kenny G]

Couldn't they have been named after shapes in the same way the circle line is? Alternatively animals could have been fun and memorable.

 

[Winthorpe]

Very good point in my view. Shouldn't we be looking to *improve* London's rail services, as well as life in London in general, rather than - as you quite rightly put - entrench grievance.

Yes, not just to improve rail. We all need to live together. Not hate each other because something someone else did to someone else or group in the past. Someone else did, right or wrong, which none of us now is responsible.

 

[jon0844]

But they were named that way naturally such as after an event such as the Jubilee Line for the Silver Jubilee, the Elizabeth Line for the longest serving monarchy, Metropolitan Line having evolved from the Metropolitan Railway (that is now the oldest underground railway in the world) or simply a District of lines. Whereas these names were intended to assist passengers in working out where they are and where they are going. But if you aren't aware of the history of the Windrush Generation and the significance of the area the namesake line serves, how will you know that's where the line will take you? How will anyone who has no interest in football know where the Lioness Line will take them? How is anyone who has never heard of Mildmay Hospital going to know where the Mildmay Line will take them?

What lines have names that tell people where they go to? I mean we've discussed Victoria and H&C already, and GOBLIN isn't widely known, but the others? Jubilee? Elizabeth? Metropolitan? Distract?

You learned where they go from the maps and experience of using them, as will people here.

Most people use a map or a journey planner to get around. They don't care for the line names, just a way of identifying their route (and understanding information given about delays).

It really doesn't matter what names were chosen.

 

[Sorcerer]

What lines have names that tell people where they go to? I mean we've discussed Victoria and H&C already, and GOBLIN isn't widely known, but the others? Jubilee? Elizabeth? Metropolitan? Distract?

The Waterloo and City Line which serves Waterloo and the old city at Bank. The Northern Line which serves north of the Thames (though named in anticipation of the Northern Heights extension plan). The Bakerloo Line whose name is a portmanteau of Baker Street and Waterloo which the was built to connect and originally called the Baker Street & Waterloo Railway. The Central Line for running through the centre of London opened under the name of Central London Railway. The Metropolitan Line (built as Metropolitan Railway) derived from the world metropolis, a term used to refer to London in the old days. The District Line was originally the Metropolitan District Railway. Jubilee and Elizabeth Line are the exceptions here because they were named in relation to Queen Elizabeth, the longest serving monarchy of the UK.

It really doesn't matter what names were chosen.

Then why name them what they did? Why not use something more simple and easy to remember like number based (Line 1, Line 2) or colour based (Red Line, Burgundy Line)?

 

[Mr. SW]

Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God!
These names are awful! They're so close to verging on the "Winnie Mandela House" trope of cringing Eighties tokenism. They've chosen all the names that I thought of and rejected and added a few more, just to be sure. Just to spite me.

Without any doubt they all violate the most important Rule Number 1 of Naming Things:

> Any name that requires an extensive and exhaustive explanation as to its meaning and origin is by definition wrong and should be rejected.

This is from the "Book of How Not to do Stuff". It's very large.

'Lioness' will date badly too.

I think that a name like 'Windrush' is not something to be commemorated by a rail service. It's a better term for a Museum of Understanding and Community Centre, perhaps. Also, the Port of Tilbury and the Cotswolds say 'Hello'.

Manchester waves and says 'Hi' over 'Suffragette' as well.

If the 'Weaver' line is named after the Huguenots. why not just call it the the 'Huguenot Line'?

If they wanted to commemorate something better then I proffer the following list: Faraday, Nightingale, Coram, Sancho, Handel, Equiano, Robeson, Grosvenor, Fitzroy, Seacole, Pepys, Herschel amongst others.

I mention Pepys because of his parmesan cheese that he buried in his garden during the Great Fire and his enormous bladder stone.

Ah, well.

And just a bit of fun>>>
Yes, the Metropolitan Line is badly named. The Circle Line should be called the Metropolitan, and the Met should be called the Middlesex Line although 'Harrowick' (from Harrow and Rickmansworth) appeals.
DLR lines should be numbered Dx.

I await your bile.

Edit: I quite like the colours though.

 

[Kite159]

Isn't it a bit ironic that the Watford DC line being renamed after the English females kickball team is the line which won't get used if you wanted Wembley Stadium from Central london (Met line is more frequent & faster, with the benefit of Wembley Park being some-what closer to Wembley Stadium than Wembley Central.

 

[childwallblues]

Has this Messrs Burnham and Rotheram thoughts of new ways how to wasteour taxes?
?

 

[Dr_Paul]

Left wing here but hate the new names, i much prefer geographical names but that is because i value practicality and substance over style. Perhaps my least favourite ine is the Mildmay line, how does that in any way represent those on the western ends of the line ie, Richmond Branch, West London line branch to Clapham. Theres not a station on the line called Mildmay, the place its named after Mildmay hospital is nowhere near the line.

Goblin line
Harlequin/Watford DC
North London Line/ North London Orbital (with West London branch specifically for trains to/from Clapham)
East London line/South London Orbital
Tottenstow lines
Emerson Park line

Those would be my suggestions. These new names do i agree seem to politically motivated which doesnt fit well for public transport which should be open and accessible to all, and thereby not promoting one ideology or another. People have already mentioned the issues with windrush line favouring one subset of immigrants over others, a lot of the names seem to have very weak ties to the places the lines serve. Sure the lines needed separating for increased customer clarity but for me the way they've done this i cannot get behind it. As i say Public transport, it should be open and accessible to all. The fact this thread has got highly political indicates that these names are not inclusive for all. Politicians building monuments after themselves is not a good use of public resources, be they left wing, centre or right wing.

I too am a longstanding left-winger, and I also find the new names a bit jarring, just as much as I find the Elizabeth Line annoying as a substitute for the perfectly apt Crossrail.

Northern Orbital and Southern Orbital could suffice for the North London Line and the East and South London Lines.

I agree that Windrush isn't altogether apt, particularly as it goes through an area with a large South Asian population (mainly Bengali) in Shoreditch and Whitechapel (which also was a major Jewish area, and before that Huguenot), and Peckham, which has a large African population. Seeing that the North London Line goes through Kilburn and Camden Town, places with a large Irish population, perhaps someone might suggest a name with an Irish connection.

I'm an historian and I'm all for bringing into light of day people whose experiences have been ignored, forgotten or downplayed, but this naming exercise just doesn't work for me.

 

[RGM654]

Having the Underground lines distinguished by names (even if some of them were not perfectly descriptive) but no such distinctions across the sprawl of Overground lines was undesirable, so I am pleased that the latter are getting names at last, though I don't think much of the names that have been chosen. I understood none of them until I read the explanations, and some of those are unconvincing. "Lioness" makes little sense but I was glad to see the back of "Harlequin". As has been said, the costs of changing all the signs etc would have been much the same whichever names were chosen.

 

[Peter0124]

Goblin is really easy to remember and should have stayed imo.

You'll probably begin to hear auto announcements saying "Lioness line" at Euston now rather than "London Overground".

 

[Cowley]

Ok, so from this point on (and bearing in mind some of the more ‘fruity’ posts a few pages back).

Can we all try and be polite to each other please. Even if you disagree and wish to respond to something.

Thanks!

 

[eldomtom2]

What is this pish?

We quickly learned about the network’s low cognitive load — its lighter, cooler, quieter journeys meant that the Overground is often preferred by vulnerable groups and those with neurodivergent needs. The network also formed a ring of care around London, connecting key workers and patients to dozens of NHS hospitals in our city.

 

[Highview]

Apart from whether the names are appropriate or not, what is going to annoy me is the likelihood that the on-board PAs are going to constantly announce the name in addition to what is said now so we will get "This is the London Overground Windrush Line service to ..." etc.

 

[DjU]

But they were named that way naturally such as after an event such as the Jubilee Line for the Silver Jubilee, the Elizabeth Line for the longest serving monarchy, Metropolitan Line having evolved from the Metropolitan Railway (that is now the oldest underground railway in the world) or simply a District of lines. Whereas these names were intended to assist passengers in working out where they are and where they are going. But if you aren't aware of the history of the Windrush Generation and the significance of the area the namesake line serves, how will you know that's where the line will take you?

This is all nonsense though really though isnt it, everything you have said is ultimately now just deemed more acceptable to many purely due to the passage of time. There is nothing inherently more natural to the district line being called the district line than any of the new names - its just a 100 years has now set that in stone and in the conscience of everyone.

None of those older names cited confer ANY indication of destination, locale, to anyone in 2024. You don't need to know WHY the Windrush line is called the Windrush line to use the actual damn thing, there isn't a pop quiz upon boarding. The route map does that job, exactly the same as the district line. In the same way practically no normal joe using the District know the smallest inkling why that line is even called that, are we to suggest they need to brush up on that to give them a clue where they might be heading? Clue: it wont help them.

Rose tinted glasses on some of the legacy names it seems.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The important thing is that the unwieldly map should hopefully now be a lot easier to follow.

That would require a major redesign of the map and some serious thought about how to visually distinguish the different modes in a way that's intuitive - and I see no sign of TfL doing that.

As it is, I expect the unwieldy map to become even harder to follow due to the duplication of colours that we're going to see with the new names.

 

[43OO4]

What is this pish?

That's... That's horrible.

And yeah, I'm left wing, neurodivergent and queer, and I can say with 100% certainty that these line names are awful and a backhanded attempt at virtue signalling. There's a poetry behind the Windrush Line not actually stopping in Brixton, the Mildmay Line being far removed from Mildmay Hospital, especially given the proximity of two other lines...

Why is the Weaver Line not two separate lines? The branches share two or three stations before going their separate ways.

I've seen a lot of "They're awful! They shouldn't have named them this!" and not a lot of "Here's a comprehensive list of my proposals"...

• Liberty Line - Nelmes Line or Emerson Line
  • Named so for the (previous) name of its intermediate station.
• Weaver Line - Lea Line & Lakes Line
  • Named so for the River Lea (Cheshunt branch) and the reservoirs (Chingford branch)
• Lioness Line - Harlequin Line
  • Bakerloo-style portmanteau, named so for Harlesden and Queen's Park. Also fitting as it shares tracks with the Bakerloo Line.
• Windrush Line - Capital Line or Brunel Line
  • Named so as it travels through the Docklands, a busy area with substantial regeneration work that is still ongoing, or for the Thames Tunnel.
• Mildmay Line - Brondesbury Line
  • Travels through Brondesbury. 'Nuff said.
• Suffragette Line - Goblin Line
  • It's a classic and it refers to the line's historical identity.

That press release by the creative agency is more than telling of a scheme designed to pander and to virtue signal. Not everything needs to be verbose. It's public transport, not storytelling.

 

[GoneSouth]

Is this the mayor wasting money again or did he keep his meddling fingers out of this?

Unnecessary, wasteful and cringey are the first words that spring to mind.

Buses have numbers, roads have numbers, just give the rail lines numbers. They won’t offend, they’ll never go out of fashion, you’ll never run out, you won’t make a right pigs ear of producing a map with names that don’t fit… they just work.

 

[Sorcerer]

This is all nonsense though really though isnt it, everything you have said is ultimately now just deemed more acceptable to many purely due to the passage of time. There is nothing inherently more natural to the district line being called the district line than any of the new names - its just a 100 years has now set that in stone and in the conscience of everyone.

None of those older names cited confer ANY indication of destination, locale, to anyone in 2024. You don't need to know WHY the Windrush line is called the Windrush line to use the actual damn thing, there isn't a pop quiz upon boarding. The route map does that job, exactly the same as the district line. In the same way practically no normal joe using the District know the smallest inkling why that line is even called that, are we to suggest they need to brush up on that to give them a clue where they might be heading? Clue: it wont help them.

Rose tinted glasses on some of the legacy names it seems.

You've missed the point. The new naming of the Overground lines were said to be done with the goal of helping passengers understand where they are and where they will be going (therefore making your point that you don't need to know why it's named that way incorrect), but their names do not do anything to do that. So the Windrush Line name you mentioned will not help you understand where you are going if you don't have a clue about Windrush, and that is actually one of the more sensible names of the bunch because at least it has some geographical relevancy with the line running through areas with significant Caribbean populations. The truth of the whole thing is that the names were done for political point scoring, and I wouldn't even be half as bothered if people just stopped pretending otherwise. The old names evolved naturally and made sense. These names were mostly chosen for publicity.

 

[modernrail]

Gutted the orbital bit has not been named the Bigger Circle Line.

 

[Class15]

They did on the 12 January

Indeed, and this is going to be a complete mess when the “Mildmay Line” is diverted to run along the “Lioness Line” between Camden Jn and Willesden when the route between Camden and Willesden via Hampstead is shut. I suggest adding the Mildmay line via Primrose Hill to WJ but putting it in limited services colour, and specify at the side it’s diversions only.

 

[bramling]

Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! Oh God!
These names are awful! They're so close to verging on the "Winnie Mandela House" trope of cringing Eighties tokenism. They've chosen all the names that I thought of and rejected and added a few more, just to be sure. Just to spite me.

Without any doubt they all violate the most important Rule Number 1 of Naming Things:

> Any name that requires an extensive and exhaustive explanation as to its meaning and origin is by definition wrong and should be rejected.

This is from the "Book of How Not to do Stuff". It's very large.

'Lioness' will date badly too.

I think that a name like 'Windrush' is not something to be commemorated by a rail service. It's a better term for a Museum of Understanding and Community Centre, perhaps. Also, the Port of Tilbury and the Cotswolds say 'Hello'.

Manchester waves and says 'Hi' over 'Suffragette' as well.

If the 'Weaver' line is named after the Huguenots. why not just call it the the 'Huguenot Line'?

If they wanted to commemorate something better then I proffer the following list: Faraday, Nightingale, Coram, Sancho, Handel, Equiano, Robeson, Grosvenor, Fitzroy, Seacole, Pepys, Herschel amongst others.

I mention Pepys because of his parmesan cheese that he buried in his garden during the Great Fire and his enormous bladder stone.

Ah, well.

And just a bit of fun>>>
Yes, the Metropolitan Line is badly named. The Circle Line should be called the Metropolitan, and the Met should be called the Middlesex Line although 'Harrowick' (from Harrow and Rickmansworth) appeals.
DLR lines should be numbered Dx.

I await your bile.

Edit: I quite like the colours though.

You make an interesting point about similarity with 1980s. I find the names quite brutalist, a bit like one would expect to find on a brutalist tower block on a tough London estate.

 

[BeijingDave]

But less informative because numbers do not show where a line actually serves! Whereas North London Line, in particular, describes very well where the line (mostly) goes, and has been in use for decades.



Yes.



Perhaps, perhaps not, but the new name is not used by anyone!

Numbers are simpler and more tourist-friendly.

Very easy for a non-native user of English who will already be able to remember and pronounce numbers clearly.

Not everything has to be named. In some ways, it makes things that are named a bit less special.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The example videos show the new Bakerloo/Central Male voice on the Overground. They’re not going to replace Emma Hignett on board the trains surely? I’m aware Anne has come for her on the platforms.

 

[Boff]

Overall, the names seem so so.

Yes they are probably a political play of some sort, but I don't think that on its own is merit to discredit them.

The lines definitely needed separation of some sort, as it is a pain when you see 'Severe delays on London Overground' but have no idea whether that affects you. And I think names rather than numbers suit better:

• Tube lines/rail lines in general are given names, so it makes sense to stick with it.
• Most people don't care (tourists and locals alike) for the difference between an underground and overground line, so it will seem confusing and a bit arbitrary why some lines have numbers and others have name

The names themselves don't need to have any location, its not particularly helpful:

• When I talk with most non-rail fans about the H&C line or the Victoria line, they generally don't associate it with Hammersmith or Victoria, instead linking the names to their experience on the line i.e what stations they use or they're experience of the line
• Even if they do link it to the locations its generally not useful, as for example I've only used the Victoria once to go to Victoria, and never the H&C to go to Hammersmith
• A lot of the names that have been suggested are referring to areas that aren't particularly well known
• Annoyingly, I could imagine that areas would fight over why they weren't chosen over another area to be the namesake of the line
• To be honest, a lot of people don't really know the names anyway, often just relying on the colour, showing location info really doesn't matter

The most important thing about the names is they are pronounceable, differentiable & memorable:

• Liberty, Weaver, Windrush, Lioness & Mildmay lines all meet these criteria
  • Liberty line & Weaver line sound especially nice to me, but I'm not quite sure why
• Suffragettes is a bit too long, and quite a challenge to pronounce - this is the only one I don't like (and possibly a bit sad it wasn't called goblin)
• They don't come of as too 'woke' to me, windrush and suffragette are on the line (pun not intended) though.

So overall they all seem (almost) all good - and I'm happy they went for something that has some background to it that isn't just the place it serves - it encourages you to learn more about them. Anyways sorry for the longish rant - thanks for hearing me out

 

[158756]

Isn't it a bit ironic that the Watford DC line being renamed after the English females kickball team is the line which won't get used if you wanted Wembley Stadium from Central london (Met line is more frequent & faster, with the benefit of Wembley Park being some-what closer to Wembley Stadium than Wembley Central.

Unless it does now get used by people who don't know London thinking it must be the way to Wembley because it's named after the football team.