Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[InkyScrolls]

i'd expect 2 classes of train (one bi-mode, one electric) with potential subclasses that are different lengths (some 3 cars, some 4, perhaps some 6 if we're lucky). i'd also expect them all to be able to be coupled together. if power source and number of carriages are the only differences between classes, training for them can be treated as training for one type of train.

Not for drivers, though a 'conversion' is much quicker than a full course.

 

[Danfilm007]

Do Stadler have a gangway FLIRT option?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do Stadler have a gangway FLIRT option?

I've never seen a Stadler with a gangway. Gangways aren't really a thing elsewhere in Europe where the regional services that these operate are typically all DOO anyway.

 

[Pat31]

Another operator would find a use for the 195s 100%, GWR comes to mind, perhaps as a Sprinter or Networker Turbo replacement. Can't see any operator who would want the 331s without more wires going up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2024 ==

A full fleet replacement would make sence imo as at this point Northern could do with all of its fleet having end gangways. 195s and 331s no longer fit for Northern since those are being run in multiple more that was planed when they were ordered and built.

GWR are most likely going to releasing their own full tender with a view to a full fleet replacement of 15x and 16x fleets. Can't see them taking on some CAF units which are not interoperable with whatever their new fleet will be.

 

[Mamorin]

GWR was the first TOC that came to my head when looking for an example.

I should have really thought of a better example in hindsight.

 

[Pat31]

GWR was the first TOC that came to my head when looking for an example.

I should have really thought of a better example in hindsight.

Not a bad suggestion given that they are next on the chopping block for new trains, but yeah barring GWR going for a CAF order I think those Northern CAF units will stay where they are for a few more years until their new fleet is fully integrated at which point I reckon they'll most likely end up elsewhere.

 

[Mamorin]

Although if have number of variations, eg mix of 2 car, 3 car, 4car and some multi mode and others pure EMU then simplification of the fleet doesn't happen much.

The tender says variants will not be accepted.

"II.2.10) Information about variants
Variants will be accepted: No"

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

a northern employee i've spoken to has said that even the 195s/331s will be replaced by this order (it's a full 100% fleet replacement). this leads me to believe that it will likely not be CAF that builds these trains.

Being told something by "a northern employee [you've] spoken to" is unfortunately often meaningless. People were forever asking TfW employees about 175s, with one saying Great Western required them in service by September, one saying Northern had snapped them up, one saying the 3 cars would stay at TfW until Summer 2025 while the 2 cars went to Chiltern, and someone even said TfW had changed their mind about releasing them.

 

[ainsworth74]

The tender says variants will not be accepted.

"II.2.10) Information about variants
Variants will be accepted: No"

I'm not convinced that that is referring to variants of rolling stock, it reads more to me as being about variants to the proposed tender itself. I.e. if the tender asks for x trains and a bidder proposes y trains that wouldn't be accepted. But, of course, x could well include all sorts of variations of formation, power type and similar.

 

[anamyd]

a northern employee i've spoken to has said that even the 195s/331s will be replaced by this order (it's a full 100% fleet replacement). this leads me to believe that it will likely not be CAF that builds these trains.

In post #410 (on page 14), @Neptune ends with "No don’t worry, Northern’s 170’s are going nowhere." This doesn't match up with "full fleet replacement". Why would Northern keep their 170s alongside the brand new units but get rid of the 195s and 331s?

 

[ainsworth74]

I would suggest that perhaps some are putting a little too much faith in various different strands of mess room gossip. Whilst I'm sure there are people in Northern who have the full picture (or perhaps I should say "I hope" ) it's probably unlikely any of them are posting here

 

[td97]

Why would Northern keep their 170s alongside the brand new units but get rid of the 195s and 331s?

Referring to different timescales.

 

[Stephen42]

I'm not convinced that that is referring to variants of rolling stock, it reads more to me as being about variants to the proposed tender itself. I.e. if the tender asks for x trains and a bidder proposes y trains that wouldn't be accepted. But, of course, x could well include all sorts of variations of formation, power type and similar.

Correct, it's a requirement of the Public Contract Regulations 2015 to indicate whether variants will be accepted. If you say yes, you get asked for even more details so it's easier to answer no, particularly like here when the full info is only on another portal anyway. Either way variants in this context is if supplier can submit something non-compliant they think is better rather than whether the tenderer has flexibility in what they can request.

I would suggest that perhaps some are putting a little too much faith in various different strands of mess room gossip. Whilst I'm sure there are people in Northern who have the full picture (or perhaps I should say "I hope" ) it's probably unlikely any of them are posting here

A framework agreement over 8 years the use is likely to change from the initial projections. It gives flexibility to procure similar trains from a single supplier with the efficiencies that can bring. Each stage would need its own approval for the expenditure and the 450 number is likely far higher than they expect to procure to avoid any risk of having to go out to market again. Similarly they may decide not to proceed with any further orders if the first one goes terribly to seek a new supplier instead.

 

[Killingworth]

Did the specs get issued in October 2023 as per the original tender, I can't find any further update on the .gov website but then again perhaps they don't publish that?

The DfT are quoting end of 2024 for contract sign off/start so there needs to be some progress soon if that's to be achieved.

Recalling what was said at the recent Northern Stakeholder events the outline timescales may go something like this - procurement should be 2024, integrated detailed design 2025/6, first unit built 2026/8, fleet build and introduction 2026/35.

All illustrations shown were without interconnecting gangways between units and that seems to be as good as decided already. As a user I think that's wrong but others clearly don't agree.

 

[Mamorin]

All illustrations shown were without interconnecting gangwas between units and that seems to be as good as decided already.

That is not what I was expecting Northern to go with, interconnecting gangways would have been the best option since if units were coupled up the guard and passengers could just walk between units.

Well block-ended cabs it is then, though I do disagree with that choice.

 

[ainsworth74]

Correct, it's a requirement of the Public Contract Regulations 2015 to indicate whether variants will be accepted. If you say yes, you get asked for even more details so it's easier to answer no, particularly like here when the full info is only on another portal anyway. Either way variants in this context is if supplier can submit something non-compliant they think is better rather than whether the tenderer has flexibility in what they can request.

Aha thank you, I'm not expert on the topic but I had a feeling it must relate to something like that!

 

[Harvey B]

a northern employee i've spoken to has said that even the 195s/331s will be replaced by this order (it's a full 100% fleet replacement). this leads me to believe that it will likely not be CAF that builds these trains.

I highly doubt it. Why would Northern get rid their newest fleet of Trains in a new order?

There's not been any suggestion that the CAF units will be leaving - any rumour to the contrary is exactly that, messroom gossip!

I mean, the CAF fleet aren't exactly popular with the people who work on them regularly. I wonder if someone just said in the hopes that Northern do replace them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

All illustrations shown were without interconnecting gangways between units and that seems to be as good as decided already. As a user I think that's wrong but others clearly don't agree.

Agreed. If the units are going to end up running in double or triple consists, then it really makes sense to have Interconnecting Gangways.

That is not what I was expecting Northern to go with, interconnecting gangways would have been the best option since if units were coupled up the guard and passengers could just walk between units.

Well block-ended cabs it is then, though I do disagree with that choice.

I've always wondered what actually happens when the 195s are coupled in Pairs. Does each unit have their own Guard/Conductor onboard? or is it a single Guard for the entire 6 car set? It seems pretty ridiculous if a Single Guard is working 2x 3 car 195 units if they lack Cab end Gangways.

 

[bluelagoon8951]

it's a single guard. this is common across the rail industry, double emr 170 sets on notts - liverpool runs also only have one guard.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've always wondered what actually happens when the 195s are coupled in Pairs. Does each unit have their own Guard/Conductor onboard? or is it a single Guard for the entire 6 car set? It seems pretty ridiculous if a Single Guard is working 2x 3 car 195 units if they lack Cab end Gangways.

From services I've used, its usually one guard in the rear unit, although there have been occasions where two guards have worked each one.

 

[Snow1964]

For those who ruled out Siemens as a possibility, a recent change that might affect the tendering bid is Siemens have created a leasing unit

Siemens Mobility has launched a subsidiary for leasing regional trains: Smart Train Lease GmbH.

Through this company, it aims to provide an innovative rental model for its Mireo Smart trains, including battery, hydrogen and electric models, alongside the associated maintenance.

This will provide customers with a flexible solution to supplement their fleets, with vehicle availability at short notice.

Will initially start in Germany, but intending to roll out to Europe, so could be available in UK by time Northern trains stock is delivered

Siemens Mobility Launches Smart Train Lease Subsidiary

Siemens Mobility has launched a subsidiary for leasing regional trains in Germany: Smart Train Lease GmbH.

railway-news.com

 

[pokemonsuper9]

For those who ruled out Siemens as a possibility, a recent change that might affect the tendering bid is Siemens have created a leasing unit


Will initially start in Germany, but intending to roll out to Europe, so could be available in UK by time Northern trains stock is delivered

Siemens Mobility Launches Smart Train Lease Subsidiary

Siemens Mobility has launched a subsidiary for leasing regional trains in Germany: Smart Train Lease GmbH.

railway-news.com

That looks more like renting a train rather than for producing a new fleet.
A long-term contract would likely be reasonable here, as the trains Northern get may well operate for 40+ years.

 

[Stephen42]

For those who ruled out Siemens as a possibility, a recent change that might affect the tendering bid is Siemens have created a leasing unit


Will initially start in Germany, but intending to roll out to Europe, so could be available in UK by time Northern trains stock is delivered

Siemens Mobility Launches Smart Train Lease Subsidiary

Siemens Mobility has launched a subsidiary for leasing regional trains in Germany: Smart Train Lease GmbH.

railway-news.com

The tender states that they will separately procure for someone to purchase and lease the chosen's supplier trains for each phase. There's limited value in tying in to the preferred leasing organisation of the purchaser given they are just paying for the trains and receiving the leasing revenue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've lost faith whenever I see the word "innovative" bandied around in anything connected with the media, since that very word was much to the fore all the time, even on websites such as this, when Vivarail launched the Class 230 project...

 

[Snow1964]

The Government has updated manufacturers

Upto 450 units,
nominally 1000 vehicles
Award date 2025

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65c0fe79704282000d752241/rolling-stock-procurement-letter-to-industry-dft.pdf

 

[setdown]

Having travelled on a Class 755 for the first time last week, I would love to see something similar back up north. Wonderful trains. Modern technology allows us to have step-free access now, it really ought to be the standard going forwards.

 

[Cambrian359]

The Government has updated manufacturers

Upto 450 units,
nominally 1000 vehicles
Award date 2025

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65c0fe79704282000d752241/rolling-stock-procurement-letter-to-industry-dft.pdf

Does that mean most new trains will be 2 carriages ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that mean most new trains will be 2 carriages ?

I'd have thought not, it's generally regarded that there isn't enough underframe space to do a 2-car bi-mode, so I'd expect minimum (or possibly all) 3. I'm confused by where those nominal numbers derive from to be honest.

You probably could do a 2-module plus "thrash pod" bi-mode FLIRT but as the vehicles are short it would barely have any more capacity than a Pacer. A 3 section FLIRT is equivalent to a 2-car 24m unit.

 

[jonesy3001]

Think northern want 3 and 4 car trains, only 2 car trains that will remain are the 195/0s unless they're ordering extra cars as well.

 

[HSTEd]

Well if you were going to replace all Northern units in the inventory a mix of 2-3 car units might be a good move, especially if they have gangways.

Can make pretty much any length of train you want with them.

 

[Energy]

Well if you were going to replace all Northern units in the inventory a mix of 2-3 car units might be a good move, especially if they have gangways.

Can make pretty much any length of train you want with them.

Northern seem to be aiming more for 3/4. With the 2 car 195s on quiet routes.