West Yorkshire Bus Franchising to go ahead

[johncrossley]

Charging a premium for tickets bought from the driver is of course the standard practice in many countries to discourage driver payment to improve journey times. But it needs to be made very clear to the general public that buying the ticket from the driver is only for emergencies. For example, 4.80 euros for a ticket from the driver to go one stop on a bus in Eindhoven isn't controversial because almost everyone knows you are supposed to pay by alternative means. If most people in West Yorkshire were still buying singles from the driver instead of buying singles from the app then First either deliberately or accidentally failed to get the message across.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Charging a premium for tickets bought from the driver is of course the standard practice in many countries to discourage driver payment to improve journey times. But it needs to be made very clear to the general public that buying the ticket from the driver is only for emergencies. For example, 4.80 euros for a ticket from the driver to go one stop on a bus in Eindhoven isn't controversial because almost everyone knows you are supposed to pay by alternative means. If most people in West Yorkshire were still buying singles from the driver instead of buying singles from the app then First either deliberately or accidentally failed to get the message across.

Or it might be that the differential wasn't great enough? Or that people are very entrenched in their approach? And dare I say it, you even have people who venture out in their foil hat and think anything other than cash is a way for the World Economic Forum to exercise "control"!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Charging a premium for tickets bought from the driver is of course the standard practice in many countries to discourage driver payment to improve journey times. But it needs to be made very clear to the general public that buying the ticket from the driver is only for emergencies.

If you want to speed up boarding times then you want flat fares. They could be £2. Arriva Merseyside do it very well- you touch your card as normal on the ticket machine but you don’t get a ticket and you get billed at the end of the day. It’s just like London, who have pretty much nailed efficient ticketing.

In your Eindhoven example, as in places like London, it helps that there is one transport authority with responsibility for all the buses. You have one app or one smart card. In Halifax at present you would need four different apps (MCard, First, Arriva, Transdev), and need to know which operators charge extra for on-bus ticketing and which operators give a discount for using an app. And need to have a smart phone, and have the spare 20 minutes or so required to set up First’s frankly terrible app.

Perhaps that’s another good outcome from franchising- one app.

you even have people who venture out in their foil hat and think anything other than cash is a way for the World Economic Forum to exercise "control"!

Joking aside, it is very easy to assume that everyone has access to a smartphone and everyone has access to a contactless bank card. It really isn’t the case at all, and off-bus ticketing options that make these two assumptions end up discriminating hugely against the people least likely to be able to afford the additional cost.

London isn’t perfect in this regard, but at least you can get an Oyster and top it up with cash at thousands of newsagents.

 

[Deerfold]

If you want to speed up boarding times then you want flat fares. They could be £2. Arriva Merseyside do it very well- you touch your card as normal on the ticket machine but you don’t get a ticket and you get billed at the end of the day. It’s just like London, who have pretty much nailed efficient ticketing.

In your Eindhoven example, as in places like London, it helps that there is one transport authority with responsibility for all the buses. You have one app or one smart card. In Halifax at present you would need four different apps (MCard, First, Arriva, Transdev), and need to know which operators charge extra for on-bus ticketing and which operators give a discount for using an app. And need to have a smart phone, and have the spare 20 minutes or so required to set up First’s frankly terrible app.

Perhaps that’s another good outcome from franchising- one app.


Joking aside, it is very easy to assume that everyone has access to a smartphone and everyone has access to a contactless bank card. It really isn’t the case at all, and off-bus ticketing options that make these two assumptions end up discriminating hugely against the people least likely to be able to afford the additional cost.

London isn’t perfect in this regard, but at least you can get an Oyster and top it up with cash at thousands of newsagents.

The £2 single and £4.50 (going up to £5) day ticket made all the different apps less irrelevant except for those who get tickets valid outside West Yorkshire, get the small number of remaining small area tickets (are there any apart from Keighley?) or have longer term season tickets.

The downside is, for companies that had transferred a lot of ticketing off-bus, a lot is now back on as there's no cost advantage to buying in advance.

Transdev offered smartcards for those without an app, but they're withdrawing these - presumably not much take up, recently.

 

[TUC]

The £2 single and £4.50 (going up to £5) day ticket made all the different apps less irrelevant except for those who get tickets valid outside West Yorkshire, get the small number of remaining small area tickets (are there any apart from Keighley?) or have longer term season tickets.

The downside is, for companies that had transferred a lot of ticketing off-bus, a lot is now back on as there's no cost advantage to buying in advance.

Transdev offered smartcards for those without an app, but they're withdrawing these - presumably not much take up, recently.

As long as most people are paying by contactless do it really make any difference to operators if more are paying on bus?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you want to speed up boarding times then you want flat fares. They could be £2. Arriva Merseyside do it very well- you touch your card as normal on the ticket machine but you don’t get a ticket and you get billed at the end of the day. It’s just like London, who have pretty much nailed efficient ticketing.

Bingo. Apps are just passe (and scanning barcodes can be clunkily slow on Ticketer). The way to go is contactless payment. It works wonderfully in London, with buses spending very little time at all at stops.

Given that removing the £2 thing (even if it has to go up with inflation) is likely now to be politically toxic as it would directly hit the poorest people, going this way is likely to be the best bet - stick with flat fare and tap in with a card. A small number of people may still want to pay cash (e.g. lone children too young for a debit card), but it'll be very small and they will mostly know the fare so have it ready. Concessionary passes are really useful here because the majority of people who would want to pay cash are in that older age bracket - near enough every young person you see getting on a bus will be using Google or Apple Pay on their phone.

As long as most people are paying by contactless do it really make any difference to operators if more are paying on bus?

No. Contactless flat-fare (tap in only) is truly a killer app, as it were. London buses now have dwells as short as (or shorter in some cases because of dual door) they had in conducted Routemaster days. It just works, and the £2 thing really eases it (and as I said is unlikely to go away as it'd be politically toxic, even if it might have to be popped up to £2.50 at some point).

Selling tickets the traditional way using contactless is a bit time consuming, but the solution to that, as demonstrated in London, is not to do so, just tap in. The odd person might need a receipt, but this shouldn't be the default. If nothing else it's a waste of paper and the cause of there being litter (in the form of used tickets) all over the place.

 

[GusB]

As there's very little discussion taking place about the franchising proposals, it's probably be best if we paused the thread here until there are further developments. If there is any movement in the future, please alert us by reporting this post and we'll look at reopening the thread.

Thanks, everyone.

 

[GusB]

Thread reopened for an update. Thanks @Andyh82

 

[Andyh82]

On Thursday 14th March, there will be meeting of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority, one of the agenda points is to decide how to proceed with bus reform - either to go down the road of bus franchising or enter into a partnership plus, which is the preferred option of the bus operators

The document that they will be going through is already available online

https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s35476/Item%205%20-%20Bus%20Reform.pdf

If you plough through all 32 pages to point 2.139

“Based on the content set out throughout, the Consultation Response reaffirms the Assessment’s conclusion and recommends to the Mayor that the Combined Authority proceed with the Proposed Franchising Scheme as the preferred option for Bus Reform in West Yorkshire”

Considering the Mayor’s manifesto when she was elected was to bring buses into public control, I can only imagine her answer to this question, will be to agree.

Therefore it looks like franchising is going ahead, but it will be fully decided on Thursday

 

[Trainman40083]

If you want to speed up boarding times then you want flat fares. They could be £2. Arriva Merseyside do it very well- you touch your card as normal on the ticket machine but you don’t get a ticket and you get billed at the end of the day. It’s just like London, who have pretty much nailed efficient ticketing.

In your Eindhoven example, as in places like London, it helps that there is one transport authority with responsibility for all the buses. You have one app or one smart card. In Halifax at present you would need four different apps (MCard, First, Arriva, Transdev), and need to know which operators charge extra for on-bus ticketing and which operators give a discount for using an app. And need to have a smart phone, and have the spare 20 minutes or so required to set up First’s frankly terrible app.

Perhaps that’s another good outcome from franchising- one app.


Joking aside, it is very easy to assume that everyone has access to a smartphone and everyone has access to a contactless bank card. It really isn’t the case at all, and off-bus ticketing options that make these two assumptions end up discriminating hugely against the people least likely to be able to afford the additional cost.

London isn’t perfect in this regard, but at least you can get an Oyster and top it up with cash at thousands of newsagents.

There was something on the news the other day about how many people were unable to access the Internet.

On Thursday 14th March, there will be meeting of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority, one of the agenda points is to decide how to proceed with bus reform - either to go down the road of bus franchising or enter into a partnership plus, which is the preferred option of the bus operators

The document that they will be going through is already available online

https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s35476/Item%205%20-%20Bus%20Reform.pdf

If you plough through all 32 pages to point 2.139

“Based on the content set out throughout, the Consultation Response reaffirms the Assessment’s conclusion and recommends to the Mayor that the Combined Authority proceed with the Proposed Franchising Scheme as the preferred option for Bus Reform in West Yorkshire”

Considering the Mayor’s manifesto when she was elected was to bring buses into public control, I can only imagine her answer to this question, will be to agree.

Therefore it looks like franchising is going ahead, but it will be fully decided on Thursday

Be interesting to see how many areas go for franchising, above those so far announced.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Will be interesting to see if, and if so which, bus operators show some backlash to this. Although, with public support for the franchising, it may not be popular for bus operators to show publicly if they're against it.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Interesting comment on p253 of Appendix 2

Hank Buses used a standard response across all questions in the questionnaire, which demanded ‘its £358m back’ and felt that public control of buses would be a negative outcome for the future.

Anyone know who these clowns are?

 

[TUC]

On Thursday 14th March, there will be meeting of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority, one of the agenda points is to decide how to proceed with bus reform - either to go down the road of bus franchising or enter into a partnership plus, which is the preferred option of the bus operators

The document that they will be going through is already available online

https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s35476/Item%205%20-%20Bus%20Reform.pdf

If you plough through all 32 pages to point 2.139

“Based on the content set out throughout, the Consultation Response reaffirms the Assessment’s conclusion and recommends to the Mayor that the Combined Authority proceed with the Proposed Franchising Scheme as the preferred option for Bus Reform in West Yorkshire”

Considering the Mayor’s manifesto when she was elected was to bring buses into public control, I can only imagine her answer to this question, will be to agree.

Therefore it looks like franchising is going ahead, but it will be fully decided on Thursday

Makes it rather a meaningless consultation process, but that's the usual undemocratic approach from most elected mayors.

 

[johncrossley]

Makes it rather a meaningless consultation process, but that's the usual undemocratic approach from most elected mayors.

"Consultation" is not the same as "negotiation". That is a common misconception. The point of consultation is to allow people to make comments which *may* be taken into account, but there is no obligation to do so. Most of the time, consultations end up with no change to the proposed action, but sometimes it does make a difference.

 

[Andyh82]

Interesting comment on p253 of Appendix 2


Anyone know who these clowns are?

In the area around page 24 around timescales, “Better Buses for West Yorkshire” come across as a group just stomping their feet

When asked about timescales, the operators responded with practical comments like
‘Shouldn’t we wait until we Manchester is finished’, ‘the mobilisation timescale should ideally be 12 months from announcement to launch’, ‘phase launch dates should align with school term dates’ etc

Better Buses were not happy with any timescale, the launch should be quicker and the mobilisation period should be reduced to just 6 months from a winners announcement to launch of a phase. No really knowledge of whether that would be possible

 

[GardenRail]

Forgive me, I don't really understand buses, and have only just found this thread. Will this proposal to franchise, get rid of all the fly by night, cowboy operators, such as Watersons, and Globe Holidays who frankly turn up when they want, with buses only fit for the scrap yard and accountable to nobody? I hope so.

As an occasional user of my local routes, 485 and 249 for context, I would love to see one operator, one brand, and a set standard of bus, both livery and interior. It would install a bit of confidence in bus usage, in the West Yorkshire back waters, where we get any operation that happens to own a bus.

 

[YorkRailFan]

As an occasional user of my local routes, 485 and 249 for context, I would love to see one operator, one brand, and a set standard of bus, both livery and interior. It would install a bit of confidence in bus usage, in the West Yorkshire back waters, where we get any operation that happens to own a bus.

If the franchising scheme is chosen, it will be one brand with services by tendered out to different operators. Like in Manchester with Bee Network and London with well London Buses.

I haven't seen a timeline for it yet, as it would be great to know when the franchising would begin.

 

[Loddeka]

At todays meeting of the Combined Authority, Tracy Brabin has announced that Franchising will happen.

 

[M803UYA]

Will be interesting to see if, and if so which, bus operators show some backlash to this. Although, with public support for the franchising, it may not be popular for bus operators to show publicly if they're against it.

If you read through First's response to the proposals, I suspect the legal challenge will emanate from there. The wording of their submission implies West Yorkshire's figures aren't correct and haven't been properly tested. I'll see if I can find a link, the file was a 1000 page PDF I downloaded!

In any event, West Yorkshire is the most profitable First operating company. I cannot see them ceding that without exhausting a legal process first!

 

[Deerfold]

If you read through First's response to the proposals, I suspect the legal challenge will emanate from there. The wording of their submission implies West Yorkshire's figures aren't correct and haven't been properly tested. I'll see if I can find a link, the file was a 1000 page PDF I downloaded!

In any event, West Yorkshire is the most profitable First operating company. I cannot see them ceding that without exhausting a legal process first!

Unless the proposals are vastly different from Manchesters, I doubt a legal challenge will take much time as most of the arguments will already have been heard.

 

[M803UYA]

Unless the proposals are vastly different from Manchesters, I doubt a legal challenge will take much time as most of the arguments will already have been heard.

First have engaged an outside consultancy, Oxera to rebuff the proposals and the report was included within the consultation response. I could be wrong, but TfGM's scheme was properly costed and easily rebutted legally.

 

[Man of Kent]

First have engaged an outside consultancy, Oxera to rebuff the proposals and the report was included within the consultation response. I could be wrong, but TfGM's scheme was properly costed and easily rebutted legally.

Oxera provided Stagecoach's rebuttal of the Manchester proposals...

 

[dodecahedron67]

In any event, West Yorkshire is the most profitable First operating company. I cannot see them ceding that without exhausting a legal process first!

Being specific, it’s not West Yorkshire, it’s North Yorkshire (York) that’s the most profitable! York makes WY profitable as York is so profitable and this was part of the reasoning for restructuring it in with West Yorks under North & West Yorkshire LBU.

However, instead of using the York method (which had good customer satisfaction & good reliability), North & West Yorkshire are now run on the West Yorkshire model, giving poorer satisfaction & reliability! A discussion for another thread though I feel…

 

[AndyHudds]

Oxera provided Stagecoach's rebuttal of the Manchester proposals...

First are just wasting their money and Oxera are guilty of, in effect, ripping them off, unless they know something we don't?

 

[GusB]

A quick reminder: when posting announcements to the forum, you must also include your source and make sure that you include a relevant quote.

Here's Route One's take on the situation.

Bus franchising in West Yorkshire formally adopted as reform path - routeone

Bus franchising in West Yorkshire will proceed after Mayor Tracy Brabin decided upon the mechanism for reform of services.

www.route-one.net

As expected, Mayor of West Yorkshire Tracy Brabin has decided that franchising will be introduced to bus services in the region.

Ms Brabin’s decision was announced as scheduled on 14 March. She has long favoured reregulation as the avenue for service reform. Franchising will see services, timetables, fares and overall standards for buses set by the West Yorkshire Combined Authority (WYCA), and operators will tender for franchise service contracts of varying sizes.

A group of operators in West Yorkshire had made the case for an Enhanced Partnership Plus approach as an alternative, but Ms Brabin’s decision has long looked inevitable. It follows the same choice in Greater Manchester – where franchised services are already rolling out – and in the Liverpool City Region.

WYCA says that franchised services will be introduced in phases, with the first of those – in parts of Kirklees, Leeds and Wakefield – starting from March 2027. Work under the West Yorkshire Bus Service Improvement Plan will continue in the meantime.

 

[M803UYA]

Being specific, it’s not West Yorkshire, it’s North Yorkshire (York) that’s the most profitable! York makes WY profitable as York is so profitable and this was part of the reasoning for restructuring it in with West Yorks under North & West Yorkshire LBU.

However, instead of using the York method (which had good customer satisfaction & good reliability), North & West Yorkshire are now run on the West Yorkshire model, giving poorer satisfaction & reliability! A discussion for another thread though I feel…

Going back to a time when First York was legally separate to First West Yorkshire, it was profitable in it's own right - as was the old Yorkshire Rider operations (Leeds, Bradford, Hudds etc). I would surmise much of the profit was made in Leeds thanks to the proliferation of lots of double deck buses on high frequencies. With York on top of this, the unit would be even more so. How much the company makes in Bradford/Halifax/Huddersfield I couldn't guess - but lots of people in Leeds on the buses.

Going back to a time when I helped create the material for the Bus Industry Monitor publication, First West Yorkshire was easily the most profitable part of FirstGroup, exceeding Glasgow's margins by some way. Over 15/16 years this would have slipped, but I visit Leeds often and never see empty First buses and there are lots of them running around!

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you read through First's response to the proposals, I suspect the legal challenge will emanate from there. The wording of their submission implies West Yorkshire's figures aren't correct and haven't been properly tested.

That’ll almost certainly be the angle of attack. It worked for Stagecoach, Arriva and Go-Ahead in the north east. It really didn’t work for Stagecoach in Manchester.

Any legal challenge is, of course, entirely and depressingly inevitable.

 

[LucyP]

Why is it depressing? We live in a democracy and we have the right to challenge the decisions of public bodies in court.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That’ll almost certainly be the angle of attack. It worked for Stagecoach, Arriva and Go-Ahead in the north east. It really didn’t work for Stagecoach in Manchester.

Any legal challenge is, of course, entirely and depressingly inevitable.

Why is it depressing? We live in a democracy and we have the right to challenge the decisions of public bodies in court.

And if they have got their sums wrong, as Nexus most demonstrably did, that should be challenged?

 

[citybus2500]

Going back to a time when First York was legally separate to First West Yorkshire, it was profitable in it's own right - as was the old Yorkshire Rider operations (Leeds, Bradford, Hudds etc). I would surmise much of the profit was made in Leeds thanks to the proliferation of lots of double deck buses on high frequencies. With York on top of this, the unit would be even more so. How much the company makes in Bradford/Halifax/Huddersfield I couldn't guess - but lots of people in Leeds on the buses.

Going back to a time when I helped create the material for the Bus Industry Monitor publication, First West Yorkshire was easily the most profitable part of FirstGroup, exceeding Glasgow's margins by some way. Over 15/16 years this would have slipped, but I visit Leeds often and never see empty First buses and there are lots of them running around!

York still is legally seperate.

Back in pre-deregulation days when it was WYPTE running the buses, Bradford used to record an operating surplus and a bigger one than Leeds at that. That was partly the reason they didn't get rid of the last conductors until 1985. Halifax and Huddersfield were the poor performers. Bradford also has the smallest amount of cuts come de-reg day. Bradford has certainly deminished in those nearly 40 years for various reasons, not just it being run into the ground by First.

"Consultation" is not the same as "negotiation". That is a common misconception. The point of consultation is to allow people to make comments which *may* be taken into account, but there is no obligation to do so. Most of the time, consultations end up with no change to the proposed action, but sometimes it does make a difference.

Indeed, it's consultation. It isn't a referendum. Babin was elected on a platform of bringing in bus franchising and she is just delivering on a manifesto commitment. Why should anyone be surprised?

Unless the proposals are vastly different from Manchesters, I doubt a legal challenge will take much time as most of the arguments will already have been heard.

Absolutely, and all the Combined Authorties are watching and learning from Greater Manchester. No doubt a couple more will announce the same over the course of this year.