Rail services to be included as part of Bee Network: how should this be achieved?

[TheSel]

The DaFT civil servants will do what their Political Masters instruct them

If only their Political Masters did what the electorate wanted, everything would be fine.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The DaFT civil servants will do what their Political Masters instruct them

I was aware of that. It was the wording of "a Labour DfT" that seemed to imply that political party would bring in their own affiliated Labour party people who would over-ride the existing civil sservants as well as providing the actual minister in power, as it may well have been the case had Corbyn ever been elected, when Momentum would have provided such people.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Greater Manchester is so inward looking, it doesn't even allow free transport on its trams for passengers from outside the area needing to travel between Victoria and Piccadilly to change trains (Orsdall curve services now only being hourly).

This is because TOCs refuse to pay for use of Metrolink! It's certainly possible, because TOCs sometimes pay for ticket acceptance on the Metrolink, but they've been too tight to do this in general.

 

[misar]

I was aware of that. It was the wording of "a Labour DfT" that seemed to imply that political party would bring in their own affiliated Labour party people who would over-ride the existing civil sservants as well as providing the actual minister in power, as it may well have been the case had Corbyn ever been elected, when Momentum would have provided such people.

Ministers of all parties have been appointing political "Special Advisers" for about 60 years and they are temporary Civil Service posts with different terms of service. They cannot over-ride anyone but as we have seen in recent years their ministers may well wish to do so with or without their advice.

 

[TUC]

This is because TOCs refuse to pay for use of Metrolink! It's certainly possible, because TOCs sometimes pay for ticket acceptance on the Metrolink, but they've been too tight to do this in general.

It's right that someone needs to pay for Metrolink access, but is there a double standard in that am I right in thinking that funding TfL for tube access on cross-London tockets is handled centrally as part of overall national rail funding arrangements rather than having to be agreed TOC by TOC?

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's right that someone needs to pay for Metrolink access, but is there a double standard in that am I right in thinking that funding TfL for tube access on cross-London tockets is handled centrally as part of overall national rail funding arrangements rather than having to be agreed TOC by TOC?

It has been in place since BR days, and probably from when London Transport was run, like BR, by the British Transport Commission (1948-63).

Ministers of all parties have been appointing political "Special Advisers" for about 60 years .

Known as SPADs, and about as welcome in the Civil Service as their namesakes are on the railways.

Think of Frank Weisel and Dorothy Wainwright in "Yes Minister". Always addressed by Sir Humphrey respectively (but not respectfully) as "Mr Weasel" and "Dear Lady"

 

[43066]

Known as SPADs, and about as welcome in the Civil Service as their namesakes are on the railways.

Yes, it’s always amusing to see an acronym with such negative railway connotations being used in a totally unrelated field.

 

[RT4038]

It has been in place since BR days, and probably from when London Transport was run, like BR, by the British Transport Commission (1948-63).

Since, BR days, possibly , but I think it was only introduced in the 1980s or possibly even later Tube transfer had to be paid separately before then. Nothing to do with the BTC or such which.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Since, BR days, possibly , but I think it was only introduced in the 1980s or possibly even later Tube transfer had to be paid separately before then. Nothing to do with the BTC or such which.

May have been an LT initiative, to reduce queues at their ticket offices at Kings Cross St Pancras, Waterloo, Euston etc.
It was around that time )maybe a little earlier) that magnetic stripe tickets and the automatic gates started appearing at LU stations.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's right that someone needs to pay for Metrolink access, but is there a double standard in that am I right in thinking that funding TfL for tube access on cross-London tockets is handled centrally as part of overall national rail funding arrangements rather than having to be agreed TOC by TOC?

Yes, but that would require proactive agreements with the TOC. TfGM did do this for singles and returns rail stations in GM, giving them access to Metrolink Z1.
I think the problem is that, even if TfGM reached out, Northern wouldn't want to pay for Z1 add on, given they sell a lot of Advances on which they get 100% of the fare.

 

[TUC]

Yes, but that would require proactive agreements with the TOC. TfGM did do this for singles and returns rail stations in GM, giving them access to Metrolink Z1.
I think the problem is that, even if TfGM reached out, Northern wouldn't want to pay for Z1 add on, given they sell a lot of Advances on which they get 100% of the fare.

But surely it would be an option to also offer a slightly more expensive Advance which included a Z1 add on?

 

[AlastairFraser]

But surely it would be an option to also offer a slightly more expensive Advance which included a Z1 add on?

I'm not sure TfGM have the facility to check e tickets, which most of these Advances are?

 

[TUC]

I'm not sure TfGM have the facility to check e tickets, which most of these Advances are?

Perhaps they should get advice from Merseyrail.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Perhaps they should get advice from Merseyrail.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I'm not sure TfGM have the facility to check e tickets, which most of these Advances are?

Last time I used an e-ticket on the tram they had no problems, they just looked at it.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Last time I used an e-ticket on the tram they had no problems, they just looked at it.

Hmm, maybe that's not a barrier, what was the ticket out of interest?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Hmm, maybe that's not a barrier, what was the ticket out of interest?

Local Station to Manchester Central Zone Off-Peak return, it'll give you it as a paper ticket if you specify to it, but an e-ticket if you buy to Victoria.

Or at least did like a year or two ago.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Local Station to Manchester Central Zone Off-Peak return, it'll give you it as a paper ticket if you specify to it, but an e-ticket if you buy to Victoria.

Or at least did like a year or two ago.

Ah, that's part of the pre existing scheme. Maybe they can do

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have any preliminary discussions taken place yet between the rail unions and the Bee Network to clarify what the proposed incorporation of certain rail services into the Bee Network might entail?

 

[Krokodil]

Ever get the feeling that a thwarted modern version of George Hudson wants to leave his mark on the railway history of Britain?

Well we've had enough of wannabe versions of Nicholas Ridley trying to leave their marks on the railway history of Britain, doing untold damage in the process.

But if TfGM and LCR both want branding, just put both on! Helps of course that the base colour is yellow either way.

I sometimes think that it's unhelpful that the devolved administrations are separate. In a way Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester is almost a conurbation in itself, just like the Randstad in the Netherlands.

A train has two sides.

As long as you never turn the units and rely on the fact that almost all platforms are on the left hand side, you can arrange it so that the Bee branding shows on eastbound services and Merseyrail branding shows on westbound services.

It is a nonsense approach in terms of customer satisfaction and confusion. Why would anyone find it acceptable to say 'I'll have to let that train to Manchester go past and wait 15 minutes for the next one because my ticket isn't valid on ones that have come in from West Yorkshire?'

A bit like the nonsense approach that is TOC-specific tickets.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Well we've had enough of wannabe versions of Nicholas Ridley trying to leave their marks on the railway history of Britain, doing untold damage in the process.


I sometimes think that it's unhelpful that the devolved administrations are separate. In a way Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester is almost a conurbation in itself, just like the Randstad in the Netherlands.


As long as you never turn the units and rely on the fact that almost all platforms are on the left hand side, you can arrange it so that the Bee branding shows on eastbound services and Merseyrail branding shows on westbound services.


A bit like the nonsense approach that is TOC-specific tickets.

yes someone needs to think about integration, passenger satisfaction and making ticketing choices clear and easy. And all this branding is just the icing on the cake. I can't see folks choosing to leave the car at home simply because there is a bee vinyl on the front or side of the train or bus.

 

[yorkie]

This is because TOCs refuse to pay for use of Metrolink! It's certainly possible, because TOCs sometimes pay for ticket acceptance on the Metrolink, but they've been too tight to do this in general.

Do you have a source for this, please?

Could it possibly be the case that Metrolink are asking for too much, given most journeys that would cross Manchester wouldn't actually use Metrolink?

When you say "refuse", that suggests they were asked or invited to do so; do you have any information about that?

 

[riceuten]

The DaFT civil servants will do what their Political Masters instruct them

That’s what Civil Servants are employed to do

 

[thenorthern]

Realistically all that will happen is some trains will feature a Bee logo on them. It's nothing new really as we used to have the Merseytravel branded 142s and it wasn't uncommon to see 153s with Transport for South Yorkshire written on them especially outside South Yorkshire.

Burnham doesn't have the power to "take over" rail services in Greater Manchester it's just big talk from someone who wants more power. Rather like Sadiq Khan who wanted to take over the Southern Franchise. He doesn't have the power to do that and too many services run outside their area to justify it.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Realistically all that will happen is some trains will feature a Bee logo on them. It's nothing new really as we used to have the Merseytravel branded 142s and it wasn't uncommon to see 153s with Transport for South Yorkshire written on them especially outside South Yorkshire.

Also had West Yorkshire branded 321s, which I believe sometimes went to Doncaster and definitely went to Skipton.

 

[riceuten]

Realistically all that will happen is some trains will feature a Bee logo on them. It's nothing new really as we used to have the Merseytravel branded 142s and it wasn't uncommon to see 153s with Transport for South Yorkshire written on them especially outside South Yorkshire.

Burnham doesn't have the power to "take over" rail services in Greater Manchester it's just big talk from someone who wants more power. Rather like Sadiq Khan who wanted to take over the Southern Franchise. He doesn't have the power to do that and too many services run outside their area to justify it.

Well, maybe a Metro Mayor should have the ability to regulate and "take over" rail services. He couldn't do a worse job than TPE and Northern.

 

[thenorthern]

Well, maybe a Metro Mayor should have the ability to regulate and "take over" rail services. He couldn't do a worse job than TPE and Northern.

It would be very difficult as there are very few trains that operate solely within Greater Manchester.

 

[Burton Road]

It would be very difficult as there are very few trains that operate solely within Greater Manchester.

Of the eight routes identified in post 1 of this thread:

• Wigan – Victoria
• Stalybridge –Southport
• Glossop – Hadfield – Piccadilly
• Rose Hill – Piccadilly
• Buxton – Piccadilly
• Alderley Edge – Piccadilly
• Rochdale stopping services
• Manchester Airport stopping services

So four (as defined in the press release) operate solely within Greater Manchester, two have short extensions outside the county into neighbouring authorities, and two have longer extensions outside the county into one or more neighbouring authority. The first two groups would I suspect be relatively easy to manage. The third group would appear to present something more of a problem, but would Merseyside, Lancashire, Cheshire East, and Derbyshire really be that concerned about TfGM running services in these areas, given that Disley, Burscough, Southport and Buxton are all relatively peripheral to their own economic and populations centres? Derbyshire Council for one have co-operated with Greater Manchester before, for instance on the South East Manchester Rail study which focussed on these lines, so it doesn't seem that implausible that they would do so again.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, maybe a Metro Mayor should have the ability to regulate and "take over" rail services. He couldn't do a worse job than TPE and Northern.

Have you a source for the assertion that you make mention of above? How much experience do Metro Mayors actually have in being the fountain head of a rail operator? You may well respond by claiming that the mayor has a whole number of transport experts under his regime, but you could say exactly the same for a local sanatory inspector holding a mayoral role.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well, maybe a Metro Mayor should have the ability to regulate and "take over" rail services. He couldn't do a worse job than TPE and Northern.

Except as has been pointed out, most of the lines concerned have services running beyond the boundaries of Greater Manchester. A Mayor of GM is only going to be concerned about Greater Manchester, so what say would those places beyond have, if any if TfGM took over? There's nothing wrong with working towards integrating fares within GM, in fact its a great idea. And if they want to splash signs and posters in that tepid Bee Network yellow all over the place that's fine too. But Manchester's heavy rail network does not live in isolation (despite what some on these forums desire), it is part of a much bigger network serving the whole of the north of England and beyond. Decisions on what / where / when things run should not be exclusive to Greater Manchester. At least not until new alignments are built to handle "not local" trains through Greater Manchester, and that's not going to happen this side of the middle of the century, if ever.