Could Drax services be rerouted via Ormskirk to avoid Manchester ?

[Bald Rick]

1.) Maybe this compromise of running primarily at night will continue and actually shift services over from in the day.

I don‘t think you understand. All Freight and logictics companies work on the basis of their assets being in use as much as possible. For rail freight companies thatmeans having their Locos and wagons in service for as much of the 24h day as possible. They run at night, yes, but also run in the day - they have to. It is simply not possible to have an efficient freight operation that runs ’primarily at night’. Similarly it is not possible to have freight constrained to operate across the west end of Leeds for only a few hours each night - that means it will be operating at peak time elsewhere on the trip.

There is a smallish, but growing intermodal market from Liverpool to the north east (and versa versa). However that will be confortably served by the Transpennine Route, which is being specifically upgraded for that purpose, amongst other objectives.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder why loads are so low? Gradients aren't that steep, so I suspect it is a paperwork issue.

I haven't seen the actual loads books, only a website that has digitised them so it may be out of date, however gradients + curves can often be worse than gradients alone, as well as the capability of things like RA.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I don‘t think you understand. All Freight and logictics companies work on the basis of their assets being in use as much as possible. For rail freight companies thatmeans having their Locos and wagons in service for as much of the 24h day as possible. They run at night, yes, but also run in the day - they have to. It is simply not possible to have an efficient freight operation that runs ’primarily at night’. Similarly it is not possible to have freight constrained to operate across the west end of Leeds for only a few hours each night - that means it will be operating at peak time elsewhere on the trip.

There is a smallish, but growing intermodal market from Liverpool to the north east (and versa versa). However that will be confortably served by the Transpennine Route, which is being specifically upgraded for that purpose, amongst other objectives.

OK. I accept your point about asset usage, but the congestion around Leeds just affects this particular scenario for daytime freight? Other routes could be run to different locations from Liverpool port that are less affected by poor track capacity during the day?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

I haven't seen the actual loads books, only a website that has digitised them so it may be out of date, however gradients + curves can often be worse than gradients alone, as well as the capability of things like RA.

It's just strange because it's not particularly hilly along the route, maybe a formation issue with mining subsidence in the Hapton area.

 

[Bald Rick]

OK. I accept your point about asset usage, but the congestion around Leeds just affects this particular scenario for daytime freight? Other routes could be run to different locations from Liverpool port that are less affected by poor track capacity during the day?

Yes that’s right - it will be very difficult to get any extra freight in the day time across the west end of Leeds, ie from the Shipley direction towards Hunslet or via the station.

It’s rather more straightforward to get it from either of the main transpennine routes, via Horbury Junction thence to wherever.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I wonder why loads are so low? Gradients aren't that steep, so I suspect it is a paperwork issue.

Copy Pit is 1:68 most of the way from Burnley to the summit, so hardly “not that steep”. It’s also quite curved, with cuttings and tunnel, so I’d imagine adhesion isn’t the best in autumn

 

[AlastairFraser]

Yes that’s right - it will be very difficult to get any extra freight in the day time across the west end of Leeds, ie from the Shipley direction towards Hunslet or via the station.

It’s rather more straightforward to get it from either of the main transpennine routes, via Horbury Junction thence to wherever.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I was intending to talk about other routes from Liverpool to utilise assets during the day e.g. Liverpool to Port Salford, and a transpennine route during the night.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

Copy Pit is 1:68 most of the way from Burnley to the summit, so hardly “not that steep”. It’s also quite curved, with cuttings and tunnel, so I’d imagine adhesion isn’t the best in autumn

The restriction we were discussing was Blackburn to Rose Grove (which would restrict any trains seeking to use the restored Skipton to Colne line, as well as any trains over the Copy Pit route towards Hebden and Halifax.) I am well aware that Copy Pit is steep and curved, as evidenced by the slow section running times between Todmorden and Burnley Manchester Road - 15 mins for approximately 9 miles with no stops!

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I was intending to talk about other routes from Liverpool to utilise assets during the day e.g. Liverpool to Port Salford, and a transpennine route during the night.

Typically freight companies use their assets in daily rotations.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I was intending to talk about other routes from Liverpool to utilise assets during the day e.g. Liverpool to Port Salford, and a transpennine route during the night.

What freight traffic is there between Liverpool and Port Salford and why do you think rail could possibly compete with road haulage over such a short distance? Is this just yet more hopeless optimism for a future which nobody thinks will happen?

 

[158756]

I wonder why loads are so low? Gradients aren't that steep, so I suspect it is a paperwork issue.

Is it just the same as Burnley-Hebden Bridge? Because that section does have gradients, and there's nowhere else freight running east from Blackburn can go (given that Skipton-Colne doesn't exist, and the Colne branch probably hasn't been maintained for heavy freight anyway. I don't know how long ago the last local freight customer stopped, probably before the 66s were built.)

 

[AlastairFraser]

Typically freight companies use their assets in daily rotations.

Is that possible to change with the right incentives?

What freight traffic is there between Liverpool and Port Salford and why do you think rail could possibly compete with road haulage over such a short distance? Is this just yet more hopeless optimism for a future which nobody thinks will happen?

There is pretty terrible congestion between Liverpool Port and central Manchester most of the week, and retail distribution in Gtr. Manchester and the surrounding region favours a terminal with good access to the M60.
Couple that with the fact Port Salford will be a modern and high capacity intermodal terminal very soon, and the idea has potential.

Is it just the same as Burnley-Hebden Bridge? Because that section does have gradients, and there's nowhere else freight running east from Blackburn can go (given that Skipton-Colne doesn't exist, and the Colne branch probably hasn't been maintained for heavy freight anyway. I don't know how long ago the last local freight customer stopped, probably before the 66s were built.)

I agree that perhaps it's a matter of the paperwork not being cost effective to complete, due to the lack of heavier loads able to continue further east (unless someone else with a senior role in the rail industry knows any different).

 

[HSTEd]

Is that possible to change with the right incentives?

There is pretty terrible congestion between Liverpool Port and central Manchester most of the week, and retail distribution in Gtr. Manchester and the surrounding region favours a terminal with good access to the M60.
Couple that with the fact Port Salford will be a modern and high capacity intermodal terminal very soon, and the idea has potential.

The logistics of loading trains will force a delay so long that congestion on the motorway between Liverpool and Manchester can't possibly overwhelm it.
The traffic density can't possibly sensibly load more than a handful of trains per day, and the journey by road will only ever take a couple of hours.
Only a small portion of the day will it be possible to put a container on a train and have it at a time competitive with road transport.
Most of the time a road container will probably arrive at Trafford before the train even leaves.

It will also be very expensive given the number of staff and the amount of equipment required for this operation.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The logistics of loading trains will force a delay so long that congestion on the motorway between Liverpool and Manchester can't possibly overwhelm it.
The traffic density can't possibly sensibly load more than a handful of trains per day, and the journey by road will only ever take a couple of hours.
Only a small portion of the day will it be possible to put a container on a train and have it at a time competitive with road transport.
Most of the time a road container will probably arrive at Trafford before the train even leaves.

It will also be very expensive given the number of staff and the amount of equipment required for this operation.

Maybe it isn't economically viable, but Peel clearly think that it is worth building an intermodal terminal with westerly rail connections.

 

[daodao]

Maybe it isn't economically viable, but Peel clearly think that it is worth building an intermodal terminal with westerly rail connections.

That may be to permit rail traffic from ports in south-eastern England such as Southampton, London/Thames Gateway and Felixstowe.

Apart from some heavy bulk loads, such as stone from the Mendips or Peak District, rail freight traffic is unlikely to be viable for journeys of less than 150 miles or so.

As for re-routeing Drax services to avoid Manchester, is there a real problem that needs to be fixed? The suggestion to re-open the Skipton-Colne line for this purpose is daft, as it merely creates a congestion problem at Leeds station, where none currently exists. There is absolutely no justification for re-opening this long-closed redundant line; SELRAP might as well cease to exist.

 

[The Planner]

Maybe it isn't economically viable, but Peel clearly think that it is worth building an intermodal terminal with westerly rail connections.

They have thought that for a long time now though, still haven't built it. You also have developers pushing Parkside which has also been discussed on here. For Internodal depots, FOCs tend to work on 4 hours between inbound and outbound.

 

[Halifaxlad]

What would it take to make the Copy pit route suitable for freight trains ?

Another idea (also dependent on connecting the freight line in Liverpool to the line through Kirkdale) is to run freight via Wigan Wallgate then to reinstate the 3 mile section of Hindley to Blackrod line from Crow Nest junction so that freight can head North via Chorley, the WCML and Bamber Bridge.

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[The Planner]

What would it take to make the Copy pit route suitable for freight trains ?

Bloody powerful locos or banking engines.

 

[zwk500]

Another idea (also dependent on connecting the freight line in Liverpool to the line through Kirkdale) is to run freight via Wigan Wallgate

The docks line is in a tunnel at Kirkdale, looking on google maps without your line I can't see any alignment that doesn't go straight through people's houses.

then to reinstate the 3 mile section of Hindley to Blackrod line from Crow Nest junction so that freight can head North via Chorley, the WCML and Bamber Bridge.

Heading via Bamber bridge does nothing to resolve the load limits issue. Why reopen a curve that will see little use instead of 4-track the WCML between Wigan and Euxton?

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The google link is dead - could you screenshot it?

 

[HSTEd]

Without electrification of alternative routes I doubt you could get a locomotive of high enough power to overcome the route limitations of the alternatives.

And electrification of alternative routes isn't happening any time soon.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That may be to permit rail traffic from ports in south-eastern England such as Southampton, London/Thames Gateway and Felixstowe.

Apart from some heavy bulk loads, such as stone from the Mendips or Peak District, rail freight traffic is unlikely to be viable for journeys of less than 150 miles or so.

As for re-routeing Drax services to avoid Manchester, is there a real problem that needs to be fixed? The suggestion to re-open the Skipton-Colne line for this purpose is daft, as it merely creates a congestion problem at Leeds station, where none currently exists. There is absolutely no justification for re-opening this long-closed redundant line; SELRAP might as well cease to exist.

Given the sidings at Trafford Park are much better suited to that SE to Gtr Manchester role than Port Salford, I highly doubt it.

It's not just Drax - it's for a lot of future traffic too. The Skipton to Colne should be able to reopen on the volume of passenger traffic to be generated, but that's a separate discussion for another thread. The freight possibility are the cherry on top.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There is pretty terrible congestion between Liverpool Port and central Manchester most of the week, and retail distribution in Gtr. Manchester and the surrounding region favours a terminal with good access to the M60.
Couple that with the fact Port Salford will be a modern and high capacity intermodal terminal very soon, and the idea has potential.

If congestion between Liverpool and (Greater) Manchester is really so bad then the solution is probably to send ships along the MSC direct to Port Salford.

Maybe it isn't economically viable, but Peel clearly think that it is worth building an intermodal terminal with westerly rail connections.

That may be to permit rail traffic from ports in south-eastern England such as Southampton, London/Thames Gateway and Felixstowe.

This is correct. The connection is to reach the WCML, not Liverpool.

Apart from some heavy bulk loads, such as stone from the Mendips or Peak District, rail freight traffic is unlikely to be viable for journeys of less than 150 miles or so.

The 150 mile figure is a very useful rule of thumb that some here seem reluctant to acknowledge. It also explains why so little freight goes by trans-Pennine rail routes.

As for re-routeing Drax services to avoid Manchester, is there a real problem that needs to be fixed? The suggestion to re-open the Skipton-Colne line for this purpose is daft, as it merely creates a congestion problem at Leeds station, where none currently exists. There is absolutely no justification for re-opening this long-closed redundant line; SELRAP might as well cease to exist.

If en-route congestion was really such an issue then the best solution would be to ship the biomass direct to a new berth within a conveyor belt's length of Drax and eliminate the rail haul completely. But the flow is not likely to continue long enough to justify the capex.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If congestion between Liverpool and (Greater) Manchester is really so bad then the solution is probably to send ships along the MSC direct to Port Salford.
If en-route congestion was really such an issue then the best solution would be to ship the biomass direct to a new berth within a conveyor belt's length of Drax and eliminate the rail haul completely. But the flow is not likely to continue long enough to justify the capex.

1.) Ships are very limited in tonnage, compared to what the Port of Liverpool can take. Not viable.
2.) The Drax biomass comes from North America, so it's a long way round the UK to rivers accessible from Drax

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

1.) Ships are very limited in tonnage, compared to what the Port of Liverpool can take. Not viable.

As mentioned upthread the current arrangement, while less than perfect, is the most cost effective.

2.) The Drax biomass comes from North America, so it's a long way round the UK to rivers accessible from Drax

Since nobody is going to fund new rail routes just for this traffic and Drax needs the cheapest transport costs for its biomass the current arrangements will simply continue until the flow ceases.

 

[AlastairFraser]

As mentioned upthread the current arrangement, while less than perfect, is the most cost effective.

Since nobody is going to fund new rail routes just for this traffic and Drax needs the cheapest transport costs for its biomass the current arrangements will simply continue until the flow ceases.

Indeed, but this thread is partly about future proofing several Transpennine routes for any future intermodal routes. This is necessary in order to meet our climate targets.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Ships are very limited in tonnage, compared to what the Port of Liverpool can take. Not viable.

Max 15,000 tonnes on the Manchester Ship Canal?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Max 15,000 tonnes on the Manchester Ship Canal?

Not big enough. As an example -

Drax launches new Ultrabulk ship, the 'Ultra Yorkshire', at ceremony in Japan - Drax Global

Drax Group (Drax), the renewable energy company, has named and launched a new transport ship, the m.v. ‘Ultra Yorkshire’, in a ceremony at the Shin Kurushima Shipyard in Japan.

www.drax.com

40,000dwt ships.
A lot of ships won't be much smaller, unless you're incurring the additional expense of transferring it onto smaller barges.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed, but this thread is partly about future proofing several Transpennine routes for any future intermodal routes. This is necessary in order to meet our climate targets.

Intermodal? Only 1 route is likely to be cleared for intermodal trains in the near future (via Huddersfield). The next route you'd send trains would be the Stoke-Derby line because the East Mids is where an awful lot of containers are heading.
Blackburn-Burnley. has load limits and is only W6. Skipton-Leeds struggles with the freight it has let alone adding any more.

I agree that perhaps it's a matter of the paperwork not being cost effective to complete, due to the lack of heavier loads able to continue further east (unless someone else with a senior role in the rail industry knows any different).

If it's just a paperwork issue why is Burnley-Colne a higher load limit, despite nothing being able to get to it (and there being no freight demand on that line)?
Class 66-hauled trains are limited to the following trailing weights between these points:
Blackburn to Gannow Jn: 1,385 tonnes. Gannow Jn to Colne: 2,835 tonnes.
Colne to Gannow Jn: 2,275 tonnes, Gannow Jn to Blackburn: 2,455 tonnes.

I don't know 100% the process, and again I am going off a website and don't have access to the original loads books so can't verify the data. But this suggests the weights are calculated against the infrastructure, not assessed for the service need.

Not big enough. As an example -

Drax launches new Ultrabulk ship, the 'Ultra Yorkshire', at ceremony in Japan - Drax Global

Drax Group (Drax), the renewable energy company, has named and launched a new transport ship, the m.v. ‘Ultra Yorkshire’, in a ceremony at the Shin Kurushima Shipyard in Japan.

www.drax.com

40,000dwt ships.
A lot of ships won't be much smaller, unless you're incurring the additional expense of transferring it onto smaller barges.

I personally don't think ships are going to be sent round to the Humber to transload to barges up the Ouse. However it should be noted that shipping is almost always the cheapest method of shipping per ton.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Intermodal? Only 1 route is likely to be cleared for intermodal trains in the near future (via Huddersfield). The next route you'd send trains would be the Stoke-Derby line because the East Mids is where an awful lot of containers are heading.
Blackburn-Burnley. has load limits and is only W6. Skipton-Leeds struggles with the freight it has let alone adding any more.

Possible to upgrade these lines if needed.

If it's just a paperwork issue why is Burnley-Colne a higher load limit, despite nothing being able to get to it (and there being no freight demand on that line)?
Class 66-hauled trains are limited to the following trailing weights between these points:
Blackburn to Gannow Jn: 1,385 tonnes. Gannow Jn to Colne: 2,835 tonnes.
Colne to Gannow Jn: 2,275 tonnes, Gannow Jn to Blackburn: 2,455 tonnes.

I don't know 100% the process, and again I am going off a website and don't have access to the original loads books so can't verify the data. But this suggests the weights are calculated against the infrastructure, not assessed for the service need.

Strange. Perhaps there is an issue with the formation, due to the former coal mining operations close-ish to the line in Hapton and Huncoat.

I personally don't think ships are going to be sent round to the Humber to transload to barges up the Ouse. However it should be noted that shipping is almost always the cheapest method of shipping per ton.

It is certainly, if you can find a port close enough with the capacity to hold larger ships!

 

[billio]

If this discussion involves rebuilding old railway lines, the best option is to rebuild the Rochdale - Bury - Bolton line, half of which has been preserved by the East Lancashire Railway., leaving about 6 miles to rebuild. This is around 30 miles shorter than the current route for Drax trains> this route also has the advantage that it could provide a passenger service linking some very large towns in the Northwest and West Yorkshire with Liverpool avoiding Manchester.
I am not campaigning for this because nobody can see the obvious.

 

[Bertie the bus]

... this route also has the advantage that it could provide a passenger service linking some very large towns in the Northwest and West Yorkshire with Liverpool avoiding Manchester.
I am not campaigning for this because nobody can see the obvious.

Would the obvious be that it would be absolutely nuts to build a line avoiding Manchester?

 

[HSTEd]

1.) Ships are very limited in tonnage, compared to what the Port of Liverpool can take. Not viable.
2.) The Drax biomass comes from North America, so it's a long way round the UK to rivers accessible from Drax

It's no less viable than the current arrangements, which are only "sustainable" because rail freight operators pay essentially nothing for track access.

There is absolutely no way that it is economic to spend the money to improve the infrastructure to ship biomass across from Liverpool so that Drax can pretend to be environmentally friendly for a tiny while longer

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

If this discussion involves rebuilding old railway lines, the best option is to rebuild the Rochdale - Bury - Bolton line, half of which has been preserved by the East Lancashire Railway., leaving about 6 miles to rebuild. This is around 30 miles shorter than the current route for Drax trains> this route also has the advantage that it could provide a passenger service linking some very large towns in the Northwest and West Yorkshire with Liverpool avoiding Manchester.
I am not campaigning for this because nobody can see the obvious.

Why is it obviously a good idea to build a railway line that deliberately avoids the primary traffic centre?