Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Tetchytyke]

The fact they’ve had to do this suggests that too many people have been using the workarounds, which in turn means that the new flex tickets are not what the customers want.

It’s also a stupid thing to do, it’s just a game of whack-a-mole. Even around Newcastle there are some fairly obvious locations which have not been added to the trial. And if those locations get added to the trial then there will be other fairly obvious locations that can be used instead.

Goes to show that LNER management are unfit for purpose, but we knew that already. Horne was unfit for purpose at EMT, why he was appointed by Stagecoach and why he’s still in a job now is quite beyond me.

 

[Failed Unit]

They are definately going to need to work harder

I have found lots of ways to avoid this by going outside the area. Including many stations in greater London. The new map does have some odd ommisions - North Berwick springs to mind. But didn't realise what good value travelling to Glasgow Queen Street,

The fact they’ve had to do this suggests that too many people have been using the workarounds, which in turn means that the new flex tickets are not what the customers want.

It’s also a stupid thing to do, it’s just a game of whack-a-mole. Even around Newcastle there are some fairly obvious locations which have not been added to the trial. And if those locations get added to the trial then there will be other fairly obvious locations that can be used instead.

Goes to show that LNER management are unfit for purpose, but we knew that already. Horne was unfit for purpose at EMT, why he was appointed by Stagecoach and why he’s still in a job now is quite beyond me.

I do suspect they will keep going, As you say, Sunderland, then every station until they get to Hexham and Carlisle. I was surprised to find the significant savings going to Glasgow, where the fare I suspect exists to take revenue from Avanti. Gut feeling is this will never be added to the trail.

Be interesting what their feedback is, but the massive increase in ticket sales to Manors and Haymarket must show this isn't something thier customers want.

If they did it on the south of the network, EMR would be rubbing thier hands (if they had enough rolling stock and paths to get to Leeds) - That said be interesting what the new government would say about it. GBR rail competing against itself because of ticketing issues isn't a good look.

 

[Watershed]

For now, the trial can still be bypassed by buying tickets to/from places other than London Terminals, such as Finsbury Park, which is the same price from most origins. Alternatively you can also buy to/from a different station on the Scottish/northern end, such as Falkirk High, Sunderland or Blaydon, again with the same (or similar) pricing.

I can't see these further "loopholes" lasting forever though; LNER's sham "trial" gives a clear indication of the direction that the DfT and Treasury have in mind for long-distance train ticketing.

How does the connection part not provided by LNER work as part of that? I thought that ScotRail frequently block through Advance reservations onto the long distance operators on their reservable trains.

Looking at 2 October, a number of connections from London to Haymarket on the LNER booking engine where the only ticket is the Anytime single, because the Scotrail reservation isn't available for the last mile.

Indeed this is exactly the reason why this bonkers "trial" must be confined to the dustbin of history. Getting operators to co-operate so there is a unified booking/reservations horizon is like trying to herd cats. Therefore it is ridiculous for the only affordable fare to be tied to reservations which will inherently become available at different times. Very few of the newly included stations are served by trains without reservations so this will be a major issue going forwards.

LNER want to pretend they're a full-service airline on rails - with their high fares, (fake) compulsory reservations and (trivially bypassable) surge pricing - but seem to have forgetten that the corollary of being a full-service airline is offering through ticketing with other airlines with a booking horizon of just under a year. Sounds like, as usual, they want to have their cake and eat it...

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said be interesting what the new government would say about it. GBR rail competing against itself because of ticketing issues isn't a good look.

More likely GBR will adopt it nationally. Effectively compulsory reservations and market pricing for IC, contactless for regional within specified zones.

 

[Failed Unit]

More likely GBR will adopt it nationally. Effectively compulsory reservations and market pricing for IC, contactless for regional within specified zones.

It is a concern as the biggest winners out of this will be the airlines. As others have said BA already offers a degree of flexibility as go Easy Jet (not look up the specifics). Likewise Lumo will be rubbing its hands. The question is what is market pricing for IC. To me it should be competative to flying, but flying is often cheaper on both the headline and the final price once you add all the extras such as baggage. I stick with rail as I don't like the airport experience and I can walk to the station. But they can only push customers so far, the M1 / M6 sometimes are more attractive. (If £ is your driver)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That may very well be the real criterion, and as such the trial might for all we know be going brilliantly. That doesn't alter the fact it's more difficult for them to declare it a success if it doesn't meet the aims as per their publicity (which did not include screwing more revenue from fewer people).

There's a piece in Modern Railways (Sept, p15) where the LNER MD says that the "simpler fares" trial had been positive, with no downsides.
But then he would say that wouldn't he.
Positivity as seen by the DfT might not be positivity as seen by the passenger.

Tomorrow, BA wants between £119 and £473 to get you from Heathrow to Edinburgh, and if you want the 1140 it will cost you £1142 (business class only).
easyJet also wants about £119 from Gatwick, less from Luton but less choice.

 

[Failed Unit]

There's a piece in Modern Railways (Sept, p15) where the LNER MD says that the "simpler fares" trial had been positive, with no downsides.
But then he would say that wouldn't he.
Positivity as seen by the DfT might not be positivity as seen by the passenger.

Such as an increase in ticket sales to Manors and Haymarket I really think that for that distance most people use APs anyway, but us impacted by this are very vocal so they must just be ignoring our feedback forms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a piece in Modern Railways (Sept, p15) where the LNER MD says that the "simpler fares" trial had been positive, with no downsides.
But then he would say that wouldn't he.

I don't believe anything he says, to be honest, I consider (and long have considered) him dishonest. I was not a fan of him at EMT either.

Roger Ford is also very open to it (as he's posted here in the other thread), but to be honest I've generally found a "the ECML can do no wrong" attitude in him and in Modern Railways generally over the years, even going back to BR days.

Positivity as seen by the DfT might not be positivity as seen by the passenger.

Tomorrow, BA wants between £119 and £473 to get you from Heathrow to Edinburgh, and if you want the 1140 it will cost you £1142 (business class only).
easyJet also wants about £119 from Gatwick, less from Luton but less choice.

An interesting aspect of Edinburgh is that the car isn't a big competitor because for most it's a bit far to drive, and even London-Newcastle is a long way, plus Edinburgh has a lot of tourists who may be less bothered about the fare level for a one off trip. Applying this to (say) London-Leeds/York, where the car very much is a competitor and there are far fewer foreign tourists in the market, might yield different results. One wonders if a 50% ish fare increase would be sustainable there, or if it'd result in half-empty trains, which might still mean more profits (see Avanti's peak time fares) but would be rather visible and not a good look.

 

[nwales58]

Guesses as to the next 'pilot area' - west coast or crosscountry?

One simple thing makes train-specific and reservation-compulsory pricing useable in other countries: being able to change to a different train with a couple of presses in their app or on a ticket machine. Forget advance, 70-minute flex and so on, a ticket is either cheap and non-changeable or a bit dearer and changeable as often as necessary.

SNCF has had this for decades, starting with the station machines. RENFE has it. Trenitalia, SJ ... How have drifted into a mechanism that is less customer-friendly than the least customer-friendly railways (TGVs and RENFE) in mainland Europe???

 

[takno]

Such as an increase in ticket sales to Manors and Haymarket I really think that for that distance most people use APs anyway, but us impacted by this are very vocal so they must just be ignoring our feedback forms.

The price of a lot of the advances has hiked up way beyond what the old peak fare was as well.

 

[Bikeman78]

It's certainly looking likely that a decent newish EV will be on my shopping list, and my long distance rail travel will decline substantially.

If this nonsense spreads to Great Western in future, I will do the same. My car is sitting on the drive, ready to depart whenever I want. The half hourly service to Paddington broadly offers the same. If they force me to pick a time or pay anytime, then it's game over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Guesses as to the next 'pilot area' - west coast or crosscountry?

One simple thing makes train-specific and reservation-compulsory pricing useable in other countries: being able to change to a different train with a couple of presses in their app or on a ticket machine. Forget advance, 70-minute flex and so on, a ticket is either cheap and non-changeable or a bit dearer and changeable as often as necessary.

SNCF has had this for decades, starting with the station machines. RENFE has it. Trenitalia, SJ ... How have drifted into a mechanism that is less customer-friendly than the least customer-friendly railways in mainland Europe???

I have long advocated all fares being changeable at all points of sale (maybe that's something GBR could achieve), but to be clear you can I think do this online on e.g. Trainline's app and indeed LNER's own. Some retailers make it a bit harder, e.g. with Trainsplit you have to book a new itinerary and submit the old one for refund - I agree this is clunky.

The price of a lot of the advances has hiked up way beyond what the old peak fare was as well.

Yes, it looks like an overall 50% ish increase on leisure fares at traditional leisure times. It might mean cheaper fares on a Wednesday mid afternoon, but who wants those?

If this nonsense spreads to Great Western in future, I will do the same. My car is sitting on the drive, ready to depart whenever I want. The half hourly service to Paddington broadly offers the same. If they force me to pick a time or pay anytime, then it's game over.

It is interesting that they trialled this on Edinburgh/Berwick/Newcastle (unlike single fare pricing which was trialled on Leeds) - most people wouldn't even consider driving London-Edinburgh in one go, it's really quite a long way. Leeds might bring quite different results, and something like Birmingham would probably be a gift to Chiltern/WMT.

To be fair a lot of people do buy Northern Advances, but they aren't buying them that far in advance in most cases, and they are capped out at much more reasonable prices.

 

[Failed Unit]

The price of a lot of the advances has hiked up way beyond what the old peak fare was as well.

I have noticed that away from the trial, on a number of occassions I am getting offered APs at a higher cost then the flexiable fare. But maybe a different thread. I just can't see them ever trying to implement this south of York. Too many splits to avoid it. Too much competition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have noticed that away from the trial, on a number of occassions I am getting offered APs at a higher cost then the flexiable fare. But maybe a different thread. I just can't see them ever trying to implement this south of York. Too many splits to avoid it. Too much competition.

By contrast I suspect (certainly if the LNER management have anything to do with it) that it is likely to become GBR's default long distance pricing method, with contactless being the walk-up option within local zones.

 

[Krokodil]

Don't forget this is supposed to spread passenger loads more evenly across trains by enabling passengers to realise their latent desire to organise their lives for the convenience of the railway.

Spreading the passenger loads more evenly around planes and coaches, more like.

Surely the fact they they have done this proves the trial is a failure as people don't want it and are working around it?

You seem to be under the misapprehension that the purpose of this is to benefit passengers. Sure, they like to spin things that way, but it's quite clear that the real purpose is to fleece passengers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't believe anything he says, to be honest, I consider (and long have considered) him dishonest. I was not a fan of him at EMT either.

He’s always been one to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. It took East Coast years to build the business back up after NXEC, and Horne shredded all the goodwill in about six months. Silly things like halving the size of the wine glasses was enough to persuade me to stop paying premium fares for first class and I know I wasn’t alone, but I’m sure it looked good on a spreadsheet.

 

[Failed Unit]

Spreading the passenger loads more evenly around planes and coaches, more like.


You seem to be under the misapprehension that the purpose of this is to benefit passengers. Sure, they like to spin things that way, but it's quite clear that the real purpose is to fleece passengers.

On that route, in the summer, with a lot of tourists.

Makes me wonder if they just pay, or don't travel, as tourists know the UK is expensive and probably take it on the chin.

 

[Haywain]

and Horne shredded all the goodwill in about six months.

For Horne, read Stagecoach. The changes would have happened whoever was in the MD post.

 

[redreni]

Such as an increase in ticket sales to Manors and Haymarket I really think that for that distance most people use APs anyway, but us impacted by this are very vocal so they must just be ignoring our feedback forms.

I use tend to use advances too, where they're available and cheaper than the cheapest flexible ticket, but the whole point of these changes is to make it so advances can be (and often are) more expensive than the flexible fares that have been withdrawn (hence LNER's perception that flexible fares to Manors and Haymarket, which have existed for years, constitute some sort of loophole all of a sudden).

It is interesting that they trialled this on Edinburgh/Berwick/Newcastle (unlike single fare pricing which was trialled on Leeds) - most people wouldn't even consider driving London-Edinburgh in one go, it's really quite a long way. Leeds might bring quite different results, and something like Birmingham would probably be a gift to Chiltern/WMT.

I agree, although in fairness I did stay in an Ibis budget for £34 for a twin room the other night. Given the level of fares we're talking about, even somebody travelling on their own could be better off driving there and back with overnight stops. As soon as you add a second, third, fourth person...

You seem to be under the misapprehension that the purpose of this is to benefit passengers. Sure, they like to spin things that way, but it's quite clear that the real purpose is to fleece passengers.

Yes, but that's no reason to make it easy for LNER and the government to lie to the public about what this scheme is about. When responding to the results of the trial, it's important in my view to pretend to have believed what they told us it was for when they launched it and not let them move the goalposts when it comes to evaluating it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For Horne, read Stagecoach. The changes would have happened whoever was in the MD post.

Very possibly, given just how badly wrong Stagecoach got its sums. But whilst we did see similar attitudes at EMT when Horne was there, such as getting rid of the buffet car staff and outsourcing to RailGourmet, we didn't see the same level of scrimping on the west coast. This does make me think that a decent enough chunk of the nickel-and-diming came from the MD and not people above him.

I agree, although in fairness I did stay in an Ibis budget for £34 for a twin room the other night. Given the level of fares we're talking about, even somebody travelling on their own could be better off driving there and back with overnight stops. As soon as you add a second, third, fourth person...

I'd rather poke myself in the eyeballs with knitting needles than drive on the A1 north of Newcastle or the A702 from Abington, especially in summer.

I'm sure LNER understand this too...

 

[Haywain]

we didn't see the same level of scrimping on the west coast.

The west coast was never controlled by Stagecoach to the same extent. Virgin had a serious stake in that business, rather then just the name on the East Coast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For Horne, read Stagecoach. The changes would have happened whoever was in the MD post.

But Horne continues to do these things in the absence of Stagecoach.

 

[signed]

I'd rather poke myself in the eyeballs with knitting needles than drive on the A1 north of Newcastle or the A702 from Abington, especially in summer.

The thing is that most normies will have quite a bit of bias. So if one thing goes massively pear shaped on the train, they will avoid taking trains...

It's the same feeling that most motorcycle drivers have when going back on a motorcycle after a big fall.

I once spoken with a guy in 1st class on a 3h-delayed TGV (with complimentary lunchboxes due to the delay...), they told me very strongly they would never take the train again. And seeing how many people drive alone to holidays in France, I wouldn't doubt it.

 

[bakerstreet]

The fact they’ve had to do this suggests that too many people have been using the workarounds, which in turn means that the new flex tickets are not what the customers want.

It’s also a stupid thing to do, it’s just a game of whack-a-mole. Even around Newcastle there are some fairly obvious locations which have not been added to the trial. And if those locations get added to the trial then there will be other fairly obvious locations that can be used instead.

Goes to show that LNER management are unfit for purpose, but we knew that already. Horne was unfit for purpose at EMT, why he was appointed by Stagecoach and why he’s still in a job now is quite beyond me.

Surely the 70 min flex ticket is exactly what the customer wants. In LNER’s own words it offers ‘modern flexibility’. What could be better than that!

(Source https://www.lner.co.uk/news/lner-launches-pioneering-pilot-to-further-simplify-fares/)

We believe that making fares simpler, smarter, and fairer, while introducing value for money and modern flexibility, will encourage more people to choose to travel by rail, the most sustainable travel choice.”

 

[Bletchleyite]

The west coast was never controlled by Stagecoach to the same extent. Virgin had a serious stake in that business, rather then just the name on the East Coast.

51% in fact, with Stagey being 49%, thus what Virgin said went. Of course Virgin did preside over some pretty whacking walk up fare rises too, but as they mostly only affected business travellers the impact wasn't the same.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It needs a well coordinated campaign to fight this, really. Isolated griping on railway forums is not going to change much, and the nominal watchdogs like Transport Focus are pretty hopeless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the 70 min flex ticket is exactly what the customer wants. In LNER’s own words it offers ‘modern flexibility’. What could be better than that!

I think there are aspects of it people would want, such as the ability to change your ticket to another train including the reservation to avoid any confusion/having to stand. An upgraded app could have done that, though, no need to make the fares less flexible.

It needs a well coordinated campaign to fight this, really. Isolated griping on railway forums is not going to change much, and the nominal watchdogs like Transport Focus are pretty hopeless.

The Press ideally, but the problem is that trains (particularly the ECML) were expensive already, and most people don't care about flexibility on a journey that long. So the headlines won't work - "trains you already can't afford have got more expensive".

 

[Tetchytyke]

The west coast was never controlled by Stagecoach to the same extent. Virgin had a serious stake in that business, rather then just the name on the East Coast.

Also true, although Virgin still had a decent enough stake in VTEC, and it was their name on the door.

It's impossible to really know whether Horne is a nickel-and-dimer and that's why he was hired, whether he was ordered to nickel-and-dime when he didn't want to, or whether he's gone and done the nickel-and-diming off his own bat. There's probably elements of all three. But he's continued down the same path since Stagecoach departed- but again, that may also be coming from DfT.

I get the distinct impression he's a gleeful nickel-and-dimer, especially given how upset ASLEF are about LNER's senior management.

I think there are aspects of it people would want, such as the ability to change your ticket to another train including the reservation to avoid any confusion/having to stand. An upgraded app could have done that, though.

It's just a useless gimmick, mainly a sop to try and disguise the impact of the government allowing the removal of the regulated fare. You always could change advance tickets, it just cost a fee. They just charge that fee upfront in the ticket price now.

It's interesting how it's going in the opposite direction to other parts of the industry. I cocked up the dates when I made a TPE Advance booking last month and was able to amend it for free. Much more customer-friendly in an industry that is increasingly reliant on leisure passengers.

 

[jamiearmley]

It's a bit off topic, for which I apologise - but I notice in this thread that people have suggestions for workarounds.... Can anyone tell me if there is a workaround from Leeds to kings cross - I often get passengers asking me for a return ticket (super off peak return, etc) who are confused, and upset, by the fact that such a simple, easy to understand ticket, isn't available.

I know it's not specifically linked to this '70 min flex' aberration, but thought it worth an ask?

Thanks

 

[Haywain]

Virgin still had a decent enough stake in VTEC, and it was their name on the door.

10 per cent is not a decent stake and they had no say at all in the decision making.