Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson - yet another assistance failure

[Saint66]

My partner is disabled, and when using the railway recently it has generally been with Thameslink and LNER.

With Thameslink, our journeys are almost always turn and go ones to London, so the level boarding areas in the Thameslink Core make things much simpler! However, when arriving at the station to head into London we seek out platform staff and request assistance, which almost always goes well and staff like to ask whether we need any help in London.

When leaving London, we normally speak to staff on the platform and ask that they book assistance for us at the other end (some staff will actually seek us out before we get the chance to go to them). The station we head back to isn't staffed 24 hours, but we luckily have not had any major issues recently and staff are there and waiting even with the journey only being 25/30mins.

Our use of assistance with LNER is a bit different - we book journeys in advance and my partner then likes to call them and book the assistance directly.

They are generally okay too, but we have had issues, for example at York last year when a service we traveled on arrived quite a few minutes early. I was not aware that we had arrived early in the moment, and as my partner was stuck in the doorway unable to get off, I sought out platform staff who were quite a way down the platform. They gave the impression that they had minimal interest in the situation - they just said that assistance should turn up and that was it before they walked off. Eventually the assistance member of staff arrived, but it makes you think 'What do we do if they don't turn up?'.

I know that my partner has had some really poor experiences on the railways when I haven't been there, and while things have gotten better in recent years, every journey has the anxiety of wondering whether staff will turn up, whether they'll be stuck on a train etc. Unfortunately, this has forced us away from using trains for longer trips in the last year.

The railways aren't alone in this, airports have similar issues, and every day is a challenge for disabled people having to navigate a society that doesnt always consider them. However, the railways can do better and hopefully cases like Tanni Grey-Thompson will help highlight this issue.

 

[Florence Rox]

The other week, I arrived at KGX and there was a passenger in a wheelchair awaiting assistance. I asked him if assistance had been booked and when he said he had, I offered to find a member of staff, but within a few seconds somebody arrived to assist. I am surprised none of the passengers asked Tanni if she needed help.

I work for TFL and am disgusted that there seems to be a culture of blaming disabled passengers for not planning their route due to TFLs lack of step free stations especially in the centre. They should be able to turn up at any station and be accommodated like any able bodied person.

 

[12LDA28C]

If a train is DOO and runs through unstaffed stations then they either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act.

Really? Or maybe their employer should make alternative arrangements.

Nonsense about prosecuting the driver individually. Drivers are not trained or insured to use wheelchair ramps and any driver that uses the ramp should be disciplined for doing so.

This is certainly nonsense. If a driver takes it upon themselves to deploy a ramp to assist a wheelchair passenger on or off a train because it's apparent that no other assistance is available then good on them, I say. Disciplined by their employer for helping a disabled passenger? Are you serious?!

 

[Horizon22]

Really? Or maybe their employer should make alternative arrangements.



This is certainly nonsense. If a driver takes it upon themselves to deploy a ramp to assist a wheelchair passenger on or off a train because it's apparent that no other assistance is available then fair enough, I say. Disciplined by their employer for helping a disabled passenger? Are you serious?!

He did say "or their employer"

 

[8J]

While it might not be sensible for them to do so on an ongoing basis due to the delays it would cause, drivers *absolutely should* be trained in ramp use, because it's possible that on a DOO train for there to be a need (without any other staff present) to evacuate onto a platform in the event of e.g. a fire, and if they're not so trained then the disabled person's safety would be seriously and unnecessarily compromised.

It shows a serious lack of respect to disabled people to be going on about "that's not my job, that's 'is job" type protectionist nonsense like this, to be honest. It should be every single member of railway staff's responsibility to deal with a disabled person's needs if they are in a position to do so.

Thus my view that there needs to be more legal action against the railway, even for minor failures, until the pressure forces them to change.

There's no "protectionist nonsense" in my statement so kindly withdraw that statement please. The simple fact that I have pointed out is that drivers aren't currently trained in deploying wheelchair ramps. Therefore they should not be using them. If a ramp is incorrectly deployed and a passenger is injured, then the driver will have the book thrown at them.

Perhaps drivers on DOO services should be trained in deploying wheelchair ramps, however there are some safety ramifications that may need to be overcome first. However in my role as a driver, if I see a wheelchair user requiring assistance, I will seek this out and reassure the passenger that assistance is on its way.

Really? Or maybe their employer should make alternative arrangements.



This is certainly nonsense. If a driver takes it upon themselves to deploy a ramp to assist a wheelchair passenger on or off a train because it's apparent that no other assistance is available then good on them, I say. Disciplined by their employer for helping a disabled passenger? Are you serious?!

Yes. Very serious. It is not unheard of for ramps to be incorrectly deployed and passengers fall due to this. If you're not trained to carry out a task correctly, then in the real world, you do not do it.

 

[12LDA28C]

He did say "or their employer"

Nope. This was the only reference to their employer: quote "or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act."

So as I suggested, if the driver is not trained in ramp use, as they are not, then the employer should make other arrangements such as using accessible taxis, or sending staff from other locations to assist at unstaffed stations. Of course this can only be done if assistance has been booked in advance.

 

[8J]

At no point did l say that individual drivers, as opposed to their employers, should be prosecuted if they aren't trained. I'm saying that in the circumstances that l specified they should be trained.

You said this

"If a train is DOO and runs through unstaffed stations then they either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act."

The bit when you say "then their either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act" suggests that you would like to hold the individual legally accountable for not carrying out a task which they're not trained to do when it is the company that have put them in this position.

 

[Florence Rox]

There are some DOO trains which are 12 carriages long. It would be impractical for a driver to employ a ramp in these cases even if he/she were trained.

 

[12LDA28C]

Perhaps drivers on DOO services should be trained in deploying wheelchair ramps, however there are some safety ramifications that may need to be overcome first. However in my role as a driver, if I see a wheelchair user requiring assistance, I will seek this out and reassure the passenger that assistance is on its way.

And if assistance is clearly not 'on the way'?

The fact is that I've seen drivers use ramps if there is no assistance forthcoming. I have never heard of any driver being disciplined or castigated for doing so, despite not being officially trained in ramp use. I certainly would not discipline a driver for deploying a ramp in the absence of any alternative.

 

[AlterEgo]

You said this

"If a train is DOO and runs through unstaffed stations then they either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act."

The bit when you say "then their either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act" suggests that you would like to hold the individual legally accountable for not carrying out a task which they're not trained to do when it is the company that have put them in this position.

I see English language comprehension is not the forum's strong point tonight.

@Wolfie was directly responding to a quote which was saying drivers won't be required operate ramps.

"They either should be" refers to being required to operate ramps, not being sued. This isn't hard.

 

[12LDA28C]

You said this

"If a train is DOO and runs through unstaffed stations then they either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act."

The bit when you say "then their either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act" suggests that you would like to hold the individual legally accountable for not carrying out a task which they're not trained to do when it is the company that have put them in this position.

You're misreading that sentence.

 

[8J]

I see English language comprehension is not the forum's strong point tonight.

@Wolfie was directly responding to a quote which was saying drivers won't be required operate ramps.

"They either should be" refers to being required to operate ramps, not being sued. This isn't hard.

Lack of punctuation from the member. It isn't abundantly clear in the sea of hyperbolic nonsense on here.

And if assistance is clearly not 'on the way'?

The fact is that I've seen drivers use ramps if there is no assistance forthcoming. I have never heard of any driver being disciplined or castigated for doing so, despite not being officially trained in ramp use. I certainly would not discipline a driver for deploying a ramp in the absence of any alternative.

These drivers are doing wrong. I repeat what I said initially - if you are not trained to do something at work then you do not do it.

Other alternatives are to wait for qualified assistance to arrive or to over carry said passenger to a suitable location where assistance can be provided and arrange for transport at the expense of the TOC.

 

[12LDA28C]

Lack of punctuation from the member. It isn't abundantly clear in the sea of hyperbolic nonsense on here.

Indeed, hyperbolic nonsense such as someone wanting drivers disciplined for assisting a wheelchair user off a train.

Other alternatives are to wait for qualified assistance to arrive or to over carry said passenger to a suitable location where assistance can be provided and arrange for transport at the expense of the TOC.

I'm sure that's the best possible outcome for operator and passenger. Potentially a couple of hours' delay and a taxi home. Perfect.

 

[8J]

Indeed, hyperbolic nonsense such as someone wanting drivers disciplined for assisting a wheelchair user off a train.

Quite clearly you don't work on the railway, nor do yor grasp the severe consequences that come with doing something that you are not trained to do.

I am a driver instructor now, but I am also an ex guard. When I trained to be a guard some years ago now, I needed to be trained and assessed, both on paper and by observation in deploying the ramp correctly to be deemed competent in carrying out that task.

I moved TOC to become a driver and I have not received that training. Therefore I cannot do that task. I also am aware of a driver who was disciplined for deploying a ramp and was observed by a manager doing so. He was subject to the disciplinary procedures for the reasons I've outlined in my posts. That is not hyperbolic nonsense, it is called the way of the world and has been the way of the world for quite some time now!

 

[12LDA28C]

Quite clearly you don't work on the railway, nor do yor grasp the severe consequences that come with doing something that you are not trained to do.

I am a driver instructor now, but I am also an ex guard. When I trained to be a guard some years ago now, I needed to be trained and assessed, both on paper and by observation in deploying the ramp correctly to be deemed competent in carrying out that task.

I moved TOC to become a driver and I have not received that training. Therefore I cannot do that task. I also am aware of a driver who was disciplined for deploying a ramp and was observed by a manager doing so. He was subject to the disciplinary procedures for the reasons I've outlined in my posts. That is not hyperbolic nonsense, it is called the way of the world and has been the way of the world for quite some time now!

Thanks for making assumptions about what I do for a living. Again, I would not discipline a driver for deploying a ramp and the fact that you claim to have seen this happen at your employer is a pretty sad indictment of the railway in general and your management in particular.

 

[8J]

If you worked in an operational role

Thanks for making assumptions about what I do for a living. Again, I would not discipline a driver for deploying a ramp and the fact that you claim to have seen this happen at your employer is a pretty sad indictment of the railway in general and your management in particular.

You may not want to discipline a driver for doing it, but as I stated, it has happened and quite rightly so too. Safety comes first with anything and an untrained person deploying the ramp has potentially severe consequences.

If you worked in an operational role, you'd know that it is completely unacceptable to do something such as deploy a wheelchair ramps without the correct training. If a TOC wishes to provide ramp training for drivers, then that is different, but they don't and therefore drivers should not be using them.

Your lack of understanding for how processes need to be risk assessed and competence managed suggests you do not understand how the railway works, hence my justified assumption.

 

[TUC]

I am left wondering how much training it takes to deploy a ramp on a train when hundreds of people working in shops and offices with steps at the entrance deploy them everyday to assist customers.

 

[father_jack]

If you worked in an operational role

You may not want to discipline a driver for doing it, but as I stated, it has happened and quite rightly so too. Safety comes first with anything and an untrained person deploying the ramp has potentially severe consequences.

If you worked in an operational role, you'd know that it is completely unacceptable to do something such as deploy a wheelchair ramps without the correct training. If a TOC wishes to provide ramp training for drivers, then that is different, but they don't and therefore drivers should not be using them.

Your lack of understanding for how processes need to be risk assessed and competence managed suggests you do not understand how the railway works, hence my justified assumption.

I work at a station where the guards deploy ramps. There are ramps on the platforms but the closest I'll get involved is to give the guard a call or message to alert them and to find out whereabouts the wheelchair space is. On arrival of the train I'll chivvy the other passengers away from the wheelchair space door but I'll have absolutely no ramp involvement.

People on about drivers doing ramps- it's all grand until a driver injures themselves. Bit stuffed then aren't you ? That said DOO trains in Ireland require the driver to put down ramps and if something went awry it would be a very long wait for a replacement driver.

 

[TUC]

I work at a station where the guards deploy ramps. There are ramps on the platforms but the closest I'll get involved is to give the guard a call or message to alert them and to find out whereabouts the wheelchair space is. On arrival of the train I'll chivvy the other passengers away from the wheelchair space door but I'll have absolutely no ramp involvement.

People on about drivers doing ramps- it's all grand until a driver injures themselves. Bit stuffed then aren't you ? That said DOO trains in Ireland require the driver to put down ramps and if something went awry it would be a very long wait for a replacement driver.

Is that really any different a question in reality to what is a guard/conductor injures thrmselves putting down a ramp on a non-DOO service? The train still can't proceed.

In reality, thr chances of injury are small. The ramps aren't heavy, so little more than normal lifting and handling techniques would likely be required.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I am left wondering how much training it takes to deploy a ramp on a train when hundreds of people working in shops and offices with steps at the entrance deploy them everyday to assist customers.

It's about a 15 minute process, repeated for each type of traction, where you are reminded of generic manual handling rules, shown where the ramp is stowed and it is demonstrated how to ensure that the pins at the top of the ramp are correctly located into the locating holes on the step. The latter is about the only real risk from an employee not specifically ramp trained - they could be unaware of the pins, not locate them within the holes and thus their may be a risk of the ramp moving whilst it is in use.

 

[norbitonflyer]

How do you know she was fortunate?
How do you know she didn’t miss it due to the state of the railway with all the delays and cancellations?

Loads of people on here seem to think it is her fault all this happened!

She could have been delayed on previous train?
She could of had an open ticket allowing travel on any train!

She could, but there has been no suggestion either of a missed connection, or of cancellation of the train on which she had assistance booked.

By fortunate, I meant that she had the good fortune not to fall foul of the increasing antipathy (of LNER in particular) to the very concept of Turn Up & Go, and was using an open ticket, or had for some other reason been allowed to travel on a train other than the one she had intended to use.

Of course what happened when she got to Kings Cross was not her fault.

 

[43066]

Then it becomes the driver! Simple really?

Good luck with that on a 12 car DOO service in the peak. It’s a complete non starter.

While it might not be sensible for them to do so on an ongoing basis due to the delays it would cause, drivers *absolutely should* be trained in ramp use, because it's possible that on a DOO train for there to be a need (without any other staff present) to evacuate onto a platform in the event of e.g. a fire, and if they're not so trained then the disabled person's safety would be seriously and unnecessarily compromised.

DOO drivers are not ramp trained. The instruction at my old DOO operator was that if a train is evacuated wheelchair passengers are left behind and assisted later (although that was the same for both guarded and DOO trains AIUI).

Staff would also never be expected to put themselves in danger by approaching a burning vehicle to put a ramp down, so ramp training for this eventuality wouldn’t make sense. The safety first approach in this situation is to prevent fires from occurring in the first place, hence the focus on banning e-scooters etc.

It shows a serious lack of respect to disabled people to be going on about "that's not my job, that's 'is job" type protectionist nonsense like this, to be honest. It should be every single member of railway staff's responsibility to deal with a disabled person's needs if they are in a position to do so.

It doesn’t at all - this is just blaming staff for a failure of the TOC to staff the railway properly. Drivers are not in a position to deal with disabled peoples’ needs. That situation doesn’t change just because no other staff are available; the railway simply becomes inaccessible.

Thanks for making assumptions about what I do for a living. Again, I would not discipline a driver for deploying a ramp and the fact that you claim to have seen this happen at your employer is a pretty sad indictment of the railway in general and your management in particular.

To be fair there probably are some drivers who do it as a last resort, who will generally be ex guards who are confident using the ramp. It’s on them if something goes wrong, though.

A blind eye is turned but, let’s be honest, if an untrained driver (or any other staff member) ended up tipping someone down the gap because the ramp moved, and they were injured or killed, the TOC would hang the staff member out to dry. I can see why people would be unwilling to take that risk.

Is that really any different a question in reality to what is a guard/conductor injures thrmselves putting down a ramp on a non-DOO service? The train still can't proceed.

The train could proceed ECS without a guard. If the driver is injured it cannot move and will block the line, delaying potentially thousands and creating a risk of self evacuations etc. Comparisons to offices are irrelevant; the risks are totally different.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Wolfie has been quoted out of context - he was responding to

Drivers do not, and almost certainly will not at any point, be routinely required to deploy wheelchair ramps!

with this

If a train is DOO and runs through unstaffed stations then they either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act.

It is clear that he meant "they" (ie drivers) should be required to deploy ramps (and receive the appropriate training).

There are no commas, or parenthesis, to suggest the alternative interpretation others have put on it.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't think I would recognise her or most paralympians or members of the HoL in public! "Fairly obvious" is a bit of an exaggeration.

I looked her up. I wouldn't have recognised her. I don't recognise people out of context. I was on a train chatting to Helen Skelton but I had no idea until I saw her on the TV shortly afterwards.

 

[LowLevel]

Is that really any different a question in reality to what is a guard/conductor injures thrmselves putting down a ramp on a non-DOO service? The train still can't proceed.

In reality, thr chances of injury are small. The ramps aren't heavy, so little more than normal lifting and handling techniques would likely be required.

Actually the ramps can be surprisingly awkward and particularly during high winds carry a risk of wrist injury if they are caught by a gust.

Others as per the class 800s have a strange protracted deployment process including isolating things on the train, or as per class 222 on board ramps have a mutant multi folding assembly which is very good at trapping fingers.

They're certainly not "difficult", but they do have things to be aware of, particularly with occasional use.

 

[Bikeman78]

One of the sad things here is that 'cleaners aren't insured to help' means that basic human nature didn't step in to help. If it was me and I saw this situation I wouldn't care if I was insured or not, I would take the tiny risk to myself to help - after all, surely it just comes down to moving the portable platform ramp to the right door - hardly dangerous work! It's pathetic that this US-style indemnity attitude is now prevailing.

Agreed. I have helped all sorts of people and their luggage or kids in buggies on and off trains or up stairs over the years. Seems odd that everyone else would run off and leave her there.

 

[43066]

Agreed. I have helped all sorts of people and their luggage or kids in buggies on and off trains or up stairs over the years. Seems odd that everyone else would run off and leave her there.

Presumably your livelihood isn’t at risk if you get it wrong, though.

 

[Pete_uk]

Good lord. It's 2024 and we are having these kind of arguments?

Are we to leave disabled people on a train indefinitely? What about when it's due to leave on another service?
Or just say 'no disabled please as you might not get off at your destination'.

Oh deary me

 

[sprunt]

The other week, I arrived at KGX and there was a passenger in a wheelchair awaiting assistance. I asked him if assistance had been booked and when he said he had, I offered to find a member of staff, but within a few seconds somebody arrived to assist. I am surprised none of the passengers asked Tanni if she needed help.

They may have done, but when they were still on the train the answer would probably have been along the lines of "Thanks, but I've got assistance booked which should be along shortly."

Are we to leave disabled people on a train indefinitely? What about when it's due to leave on another service?
Or just say 'no disabled please as you might not get off at your destination'.

It certainly feels like there are people whose unstated position is that disabled people should just stay at home and stop being a bloody nuisance.

 

[43066]

Others as per the class 800s have a strange protracted deployment process including isolating things on the train, or as per class 222 on board ramps have a mutant multi folding assembly which is very good at trapping fingers.

I’ve actually never even seen a 222 on board ramp (which is rather worrying ).

The fact you need to isolate things on an 800 to deploy a ramp just seems utterly bonkers.