BlueLeanie
Member
It's one of the longest running Open Access operations. I think that the short lived Stagecoach Sleeper was probably the first?
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Grand Union Trains bought by First Group?
- Thread starter Wymondham
- Start date
It's one of the longest running Open Access operations. I think that the short lived Stagecoach Sleeper was probably the first?
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RailUK Forums
12LDA28C
Established Member
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Indeed, I just don't consider a charter train operator as Open Access in the same way that Lumo or Grand Central are, for example.
Presumably the track access contract for London to Stirling which the ORR granted in March, with all the paths that includes. This might enable First to dodge, in a limited way, the complex procedure which is now underway to resolve all the competing applications for paths on the WCML.
I could also imagine it making it much easier for first to take advantage of a single path that might come up on the WCML. Virgin or others would be unlikely to be able to set up an entire company to bid for a single path, whereas if First already have an operation to Stirling it is comparatively easy to lease one more train, employ a few more staff and get it going.
It'll be interesting to see how it is branded. Lumo would seem to make sense rather than setting up a whole new brand, though the business case is a bit different.
The directed contract from the ORR for the London to Carmarthen application states that it is between
Grand Union Trains Limited is the company which has been renamed First Rail Stirling Limited - which means First Group might have acquired those rights as well.
That would be very logical, given First's long history in GWR land, it seems an obvious place for them to want to continue running in the new world of GBR
Absolutely nothing in principle but would require some legislative tweaks.
Snow1964
Established Member
The permits are issued by ORR, not the Government
Strictly ORR is independent, although the nominees making up its Board are under DfT influence.
As far as I am aware Labour policy is to keep open access, because bit of competition is good for quality and/or competitive fares for customers
Clarence Yard
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They are not “permits”.
The ORR directs NR to enter into an access agreement with the TOC concerned. The ORR examines that draft agreement and, hopefully, gives final approval.
The DfT are not involved in the direction or final approval process. The ORR carries out its duties strictly in line with its statutory requirements and the access contract between NR and the TOC is a legally binding one.
The ORR directs NR to enter into an access agreement with the TOC concerned. The ORR examines that draft agreement and, hopefully, gives final approval.
The DfT are not involved in the direction or final approval process. The ORR carries out its duties strictly in line with its statutory requirements and the access contract between NR and the TOC is a legally binding one.
Indeed First Group has some historical precedent for buying older rolling stock outright - see HSTs/Mk3s on GWR.
The Planner
Veteran Member
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The other applications aren't after those particular paths that I know of. They are different.
anthony263
Established Member
Oh great so a cheaper alternative to GWR is probably off the cards now then
YorkRailFan
Established Member
How so? With GWR set to be integrated into GBR further down the line, FirstGroup might want to keep a hold on the GWML and continue to operate services on the route. If London-Stirling isn't off the cards despite Avanti, why would London-Camarthen?
GRAND UNION TRAINS GWML HOLDINGS LIMITED still exists and no name change yet
GRAND UNION TRAINS NO. 2 LIMITED as well
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
First won't be running GWR for much longer to be fair.
That's true, but neither of the directed contracts named those firms as contracting parties - and novating the contract to one of the other firms would have required ORR approval following consultation with network rail.
BlueLeanie
Member
MKJai
Member
I have just noticed that the website of Grand Union had disappeared since August.
The following is the final screenshot in June
web.archive.org
The following is the final screenshot in June
Home - Grand Union Trains Ltd
Railways to our Core At Grand Union we are passionate about Britain’s railways. We are committed to the traditional values of providing a high-quality customer service and a comfortable journey experience at a fair price. Find out more Grand Union is proposing
web.archive.org
Snow1964
Established Member
It is relevant to this discussion to remind everyone that the Labour Government has just issued an ORR consultation (closes 1st November) on Open Access. So assume consultation gives outline of the way ORR and new Government intends to proceed.
www.orr.gov.uk
Summary guidance on rail open access applications | Office of Rail and Road
A consultation on summary guidance for the rail industry on open access applications. The guidance also introduces a routine approach to monetising costs and benefits, and removes the benchmarking stage of the Not Primarily Abstractive Test (NPA).
Scanderina
Member
It's an ORR consultation on how ORR intends to proceed based on its current duties etc. Which may or not be the same as the Government's vision.It is relevant to this discussion to remind everyone that the Labour Government has just issued an ORR consultation (closes 1st November) on Open Access. So assume consultation gives outline of the way ORR and new Government intends to proceed.
Summary guidance on rail open access applications | Office of Rail and Road
A consultation on summary guidance for the rail industry on open access applications. The guidance also introduces a routine approach to monetising costs and benefits, and removes the benchmarking stage of the Not Primarily Abstractive Test (NPA).
MKJai
Member
anthony263
Established Member
Does make you wonder now.if the Carmarthen to London service is included in the sale.of if grand union are still.doing it themselves
This is interesting.It is relevant to this discussion to remind everyone that the Labour Government has just issued an ORR consultation (closes 1st November) on Open Access. So assume consultation gives outline of the way ORR and new Government intends to proceed.
Summary guidance on rail open access applications | Office of Rail and Road
A consultation on summary guidance for the rail industry on open access applications. The guidance also introduces a routine approach to monetising costs and benefits, and removes the benchmarking stage of the Not Primarily Abstractive Test (NPA).
Surely there is a potential here for a substantial uptick in Open Access applications, as the owning groups look to replace their main sources of income being lost as they hand back the TOCs. That in turn could see a significant chunk of the revenue from profitable areas of the network being lost to the private sector instead of coming back into the system via DfT operated TOCs. Aside from the suggestion of customer choice, is there a political advantage in retaining OA on the network?
Clarence Yard
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I’m not sure that follows from this consultation on the revised procedure. There are still some stiff hurdles to overcome and total abstraction on a key DfT flow is still a considerable barrier to entry.
If the Secretary of State issues new guidance to the ORR or there are changes outlined in the forthcoming Act, the procedure might change again.
If the Secretary of State issues new guidance to the ORR or there are changes outlined in the forthcoming Act, the procedure might change again.
I guess in situations where passenger demand exceeds the train service supply that DfT TOCs can provide, but there is spare paths capacity available on the network, then the better outcome is for an OA operator to come in and serve the demand!
Oooh, you're right, not sure how I missed that one. Definitely indicates, along with the name first have chosen for the former Grand Union Trains Ltd, that London to Carmarthen is staying with Grand Union.
MKJai
Member
FG has confirmed the acquisition of Grand Union WCML only, not involving the GWML service to Carmarthen
FirstGroup has taken over Ian Yeowart’s Stirling-London open access operation, which holds five-year track access rights and is proposed to start in June 2025.
Having acquired Grand Union Trains WCML Holdings Ltd and its Grand Union Trains Ltd operating subsidiary from Yeowart, the deal gives FirstGroup ownership of the open access rights granted on March 7 by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).
The companies, newly renamed First Rail Stirling Holdings Ltd and First Rail Stirling Ltd, are now led by First Rail MD Steve Montgomery. The previous directors have resigned.
Financial terms of the deal, which concluded on August 9, have not been disclosed.
The ORR track access rights from June 2025 to June 2030 are for four daily return services between Euston and Stirling, calling at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Whifflet, Greenfaulds and Larbert, with an additional positioning service each day, each way, between Euston and Preston.
Yeowart continues to head the separate Grand Union Trains GWML Holdings Ltd, which was granted open access rights between London Paddington and Carmarthen in December 2022, authorised to start from December 2024.
FirstGroup confirms that is not involved in Yeowart’s proposed Carmarthen operation, which is totally separate from the Stirling acquisition, Yeowart having de-merged it last summer.
First acquires Stirling-London Grand Union open access operation
FirstGroup has taken over Ian Yeowart’s Stirling-London open access operation, which holds five-year track access rights and is proposed to start in June 2025.www.railmagazine.com
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YorkRailFan
Established Member
No mention of the Edinburgh-Cardiff service though.FG has confirmed the acquisition of Grand Union WCML only, not involving the GWML service to Carmarthen
First acquires Stirling-London Grand Union open access operation
FirstGroup has taken over Ian Yeowart’s Stirling-London open access operation, which holds five-year track access rights and is proposed to start in June 2025.
dk1
Veteran Member
I’d forgotten all about that.
One would assume they'd buy the bits they think are most profitable and leave the rest! 