Use of horns

[randyrippley]

Going slightly off tangent but this seems as good a place to ask.............between Silverdale and Arnside there are several foot crossings yet not all seem to get a warning horn. Something like three out of seven don't...... (that's not an accurate count, just a guess). None of them seem to have good sight lines.
Is the horn not essential on all such crossings? Or are they regarded as too close together to single out?

==edit==
this question relates to daytime not night........

 

[cool110]

Not many users between midnight and 6.

In addition you can often see the headlight illuminating the trees before the train itself comes into view, so the effective visibility is better than in the day.

 

[Taunton]

What are the rules of using horns in tunnelled stations? Especially unnecessary use.

I recall years ago looking forward from a Modernisation Plan old dmu one Sunday, between the Forth Bridge and Inverkeithing, there was single line working in Inverkeithing tunnel with a works train, lights and a gang in very close proximity on the opposite line, we crawled past at about 15mph with continuous horn echoing off the tunnel walls, and doubtless deafening the gangers.

 

[sprunt]

Are you seriously asking that question?

Yes. Not being a rail professional, I don't know what the purpose of every piece of rail kit is, and I appreciate those kind users who are more knowledgeable than me who avoid condescension and share their knowledge with me.

They are generally on approach to foot crossings that have limited sight for users. Not many users between midnight and 6.

Like this. Thanks!

 

[dk1]

Yes. Not being a rail professional, I don't know what the purpose of every piece of rail kit is, and I appreciate those kind users who are more knowledgeable than me who avoid condescension and share their knowledge with me.

It’s more common sense than being condescending.

 

[Tester]

It’s more common sense than being condescending.

To be blunt - no it isn't.

Friendly advice - count to three before making such a post!

 

[Deepgreen]

Another slight tangent, but I wish there could be a proper return to two-tone horn soundings rather than the single tones which are supposedly deemed to be less disturbing, but which can far more easily be confused with road horns (thus reducing the safety aspect of train horns, which is their entire purpose). It's been covered elsewhere, I know...

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Another slight tangent, but I wish there could be a proper return to two-tone horn soundings rather than the single tones which are supposedly deemed to be less disturbing, but which can far more easily be confused with road horns (thus reducing the safety aspect of train horns, which is their entire purpose). It's been covered elsewhere, I know...

Some places have two tone whistle boards. The Stroud Valley between Standish Jn and Sapperton Tunnel has double whistle boards at all crossings with whistle boards, except one (at Chalford)

 

[chuff chuff]

Another slight tangent, but I wish there could be a proper return to two-tone horn soundings rather than the single tones which are supposedly deemed to be less disturbing, but which can far more easily be confused with road horns (thus reducing the safety aspect of train horns, which is their entire purpose). It's been covered elsewhere, I know...

I still use two tones and never been picked up on it.

 

[75A]

On the Brighton Main Line and also through the Clftonville, Hove & Lewes tunnels we would always use the horn on entering 24, 7.

 

[dk1]

Friendly advice - count to three before making such a post!

Thank you. I will take that onboard.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Some places have two tone whistle boards. The Stroud Valley between Standish Jn and Sapperton Tunnel has double whistle boards at all crossings with whistle boards, except one (at Chalford)

When I learnt that route I was told that there was a local who complained if Drivers sounded two tones at the single whistle board at Chalford, not sure how true that is though.

 

[gshock]

What's the purpose of whistle boards? Specifically, why is it important to sound the horn when passing them except from midnight to 6 am, or to put it the other way around, if sounding the horn can be avoided during those hours why is it required outside of them

There are many crossings that don’t have Whistle boards on both approaches either.

Flosh crossing near Cononley is an example.

It has a Whistle board on the Down Shipley Main, but not on the Up as it is sighted more easily.

It’s all about curvature etc.

There are also crossings which are known to be of high use where there is no Whistle board, however it’s acceptable practise / the ‘done thing’ to Whistle at them.

Sportsfield on the Up / Down Google and Woodman Lane near Glasshoughton on the Cutsyke lines to name two.

 

[WAB]

As someone who uses designated walking routes along the trackside, it's horn sounding 24/7. It depends though - one walking route is along a station approach with many tracks, so it varies between drivers as to how close their track is as to when they sound their horn. It does make it difficult to judge if the horn's for you though - so many trains in the general area and so many things for horns to be sounded for.

I'm glad they sound the horn at night, really. Nothing like an electric train creeping up on you on the line immediately adjacent to you and not sounding a warning, with your silhouette and regularly doing a 360 being the only real warning of the approach of a train - I wasn't too impressed with that.

 

[12LDA28C]

I still use two tones and never been picked up on it.

Indeed, many drivers still do. I would certainly advocate using both tones.

 

[irp]

Another slight tangent, but I wish there could be a proper return to two-tone horn soundings rather than the single tones which are supposedly deemed to be less disturbing, but which can far more easily be confused with road horns (thus reducing the safety aspect of train horns, which is their entire purpose). It's been covered elsewhere, I know...

Indeed, many drivers still do. I would certainly advocate using both tones.

Thank you both. I have learnt something tonight. I always wondered what decided two tone vs one tone horn soundings over the years. I was wondering if it was something operational, or class dependent. Never though that it might be driver discretion (two-tone white boards aside) Two tone horns wouldn't bother me, even if I was living close to a railway, they sound "right" to me.

 

[TreacleMiller]

When I learnt that route I was told that there was a local who complained if Drivers sounded two tones at the single whistle board at Chalford, not sure how true that is though.

There are two on one of my routes that are known to do it. Complain if you dont (and I understand why) and complain if you do two tones. Cant please some. Its also fair to say that there has been a marked reduction in boards on my route and the crossings where ive had near misses have - none.

With regards to P-WAY working - its common sense when to and when not to. At night, especially at speed, they can be on you out of nowhere and signs can also look like PWAY form a distance, so its not always easy to tell.

 

[Towers]

I seem to recall it once being standard to sound horns on entering tunnels, was that ever a rulebook requirement?

 

[158747]

I seem to recall it once being standard to sound horns on entering tunnels, was that ever a rulebook requirement?

It used to be, also for long tunnels it used to be that driver had to sound the horn at regular intervals while passing through the tunnel. This was removed from the rulebook about 20 years ago.

 

[Ianigsy]

The thread title just reminds me of Flanders and Swann…

I live about two miles away from Menston station but on a still night I can often hear the last trains to and from Ilkley tootling their horns as they enter the Leeds and Bradford Road tunnel. It’s an angled bridge which seems to be redefined as a bridge or a tunnel every so often.

 

[dk1]

I seem to recall it once being standard to sound horns on entering tunnels, was that ever a rulebook requirement?

That was the first time I ever remember occasional drivers being picked up on an OTMR for not doing so and it caused an outrage.

These days we are picked up for not sounding the low tone for 3 seconds at whistle boards. I have twice been pulled up now for doing it for 2.7secs. How times change.

 

[Tractor2018]

I have twice been pulled up now for doing it for 2.7secs.

Groan.

We're not just 3 seconds, but specifically 2 seconds before, until 1 second after. Seriously.

The only interactions I've had over horn use was 2 tones shortly after the change to 1 tone, both with different managers in my cab on consecutive days. The first one said only 1 tone now, the second one said well done, keep up the 2 tones. You couldn't make it up.

 

[12LDA28C]

It used to be, also for long tunnels it used to be that driver had to sound the horn at regular intervals while passing through the tunnel. This was removed from the rulebook about 20 years ago.

It also used to be a requirement to sound the horn before passing a signal at danger. This was also removed from the Rule Book some years ago although it still applies on LU lines.

 

[dk1]

Groan.

We're not just 3 seconds, but specifically 2 seconds before, until 1 second after. Seriously.

The only interactions I've had over horn use was 2 tones shortly after the change to 1 tone, both with different managers in my cab on consecutive days. The first one said only 1 tone now, the second one said well done, keep up the 2 tones. You couldn't make it up.

I know there is often no consistency.

I try to do it 2/1 secs but a couple on my patch have AWS magnets in the same vicinity so I vary it a little so not both at the same time.

 

[Bigfoot]

Groan.

We're not just 3 seconds, but specifically 2 seconds before, until 1 second after. Seriously.

The only interactions I've had over horn use was 2 tones shortly after the change to 1 tone, both with different managers in my cab on consecutive days. The first one said only 1 tone now, the second one said well done, keep up the 2 tones. You couldn't make it up.

Where is the 3 seconds instruction listed?

 

[43066]

Where is the 3 seconds instruction listed?

Discussed before and apparently it’s a GA thing…

 

[midland1]

It also used to be a requirement to sound the horn before passing a signal at danger. This was also removed from the Rule Book some years ago although it still applies on LU lines.

It would not often be used, so I do not see why it could not stay. Before you take a rule out find out why it was put there in the first place !

 

[Stossgebet]

You must remember that the rulebook was changed a few years ago, to allow normal running in a situation with a partially defective horn. Meaning only one tone working.
So today, we can't mandate the sounding of two tones, while allowing trains to operate (at linespeed) with only one working tone. If both tones are defective, them the train is only allowed to be driven at a max of 20mph.

 

[Bigfoot]

Discussed before and apparently it’s a GA thing…

Ah, so not really a rule then

 

[InkyScrolls]

The thread title just reminds me of Flanders and Swann…

I live about two miles away from Menston station but on a still night I can often hear the last trains to and from Ilkley tootling their horns as they enter the Leeds and Bradford Road tunnel. It’s an angled bridge which seems to be redefined as a bridge or a tunnel every so often.

No idea why they'd be doing that - I drive over that line and I've never heard another driver sounding the horn there! (Not that I'm doubting your ears.)