Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[TUC]

So should the driver use their own car to travel to their starting location which is remote from their home depot? Using their own fuel which they have paid for, and on their own motoring insurance policy which would quite possibly not include business use so they may not be covered in the event of an accident? And what happens then if they are involved in an accident or get a puncture etc? There's a reason why TOC use taxis from an approved company to move drivers around.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2024 ==

Again, the answer is the same way as the rest of us. Of course the employer pays fuel costs. Most car insurance policies will add driving in the course of employment, without additional charge as long as the driving itself is not for hire or reward.

 

[jfowkes]

I'm imagining all the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" people standing at the opening of the S&DR in 1825 shouting "what's wrong with canals?!"

 

[Dai Corner]

Again, the answer is the same way as the rest of us. Of course the employer pays fuel costs. Most car insurance policies will add driving in the course of employment, without additional charge as long as the driving itself is not for hire or reward.

Certainly I'd have driven my own car to the alternative work location, 'made a bit on the mileage' and saved my employer some money compared with a taxi from my normal place of work. My insurer didn't charge me any more for business use.

 

[Parham Wood]

How would you manage the relationship with ASLEF, knowing that taking a strong position on anything results in the union instructing their members to stop volunteering to work on rest days, thus decimating the service for the public? As long as there is a reliance on rest-day working, the relationship will always be skewed in the union's favour.

I am not a railway manager so I have no need to suggest ways in which it can be done that is the job of railway management. I also do not know what the ongoing relationships are with these parties. Weak management and policy has given ASLEF a strong hand for decades as you point out. It needs to be reversed over time and maybe there has to be some pain at some time. Reliance on rest day working needs to be reduced with all days brought into the working week. I for one would like to see very little rest day working as I believe rest is essential for the health of people, but obviously sickness happens and you cannot have loads of staff idle waiting for this to happen. Sadly for me as a tax payer and potential rail traveller Government does not seem to have any stomach to really reform the railways to the depth that is required.

 

[12LDA28C]

Again, the answer is the same way as the rest of us. Of course the employer pays fuel costs. Most car insurance policies will add driving in the course of employment, without additional charge as long as the driving itself is not for hire or reward.

And again, as has been pointed out, TOC-hired taxis will be approved by the employer and insured and will often be used to transport more than one member of traincrew, often also bringing traincrew back to home depot on the return trip, particularly during times of disruption or planned engineering work. Rather more efficient than various drivers and guards driving themselves around from place to place.

 

[D6130]

Again, the answer is the same way as the rest of us. Of course the employer pays fuel costs. Most car insurance policies will add driving in the course of employment, without additional charge as long as the driving itself is not for hire or reward.

What about the not inconsiderable number of train drivers who don't drive a car or indeed have a (road) driving licence?

 

[12LDA28C]

What about the not inconsiderable number of train drivers who don't drive a car or indeed have a (road) driving licence?

Indeed. Plenty of those who fit that description in Greater London...

 

[Parham Wood]

The Government stated 2018 that all fax machines would be phased out in the NHS by 31 Marsh 2020. The main reason was patient confidentiality I believe. Having a patient's information sitting on a fax machine in an office was a breach of patient information security as anyone passing by could read it and technically only those involved in the treatment should have access. It is a slightly different case to give NHS staff access to a PC, tablet or phone as most work in buildings with access to computers. Staff who travel outside of clinical sites eg mental health teams were given tablets or phones. Access to email, rosters, patient records/information etc. on the road was supposed to make teams more efficient but I am not convinced it did for various reasons. I can see how a quick paper copy direct from fax can be of benefit to rail staff and that replacing fax is not as simple as might be imagined. Work processes need to be understood and then ways found to reproduce them with applications / email notwithstanding how staff would most easily and safely access these. Fax is not here for ever so new and hopefully better ways of working will have to be developed.

 

[TUC]

What about the not inconsiderable number of train drivers who don't drive a car or indeed have a (road) driving licence?

Of course they're a different case, although I would be amazed if that proportion is much different to the general population.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2024 ==

Indeed. Plenty of those who fit that description in Greater London...

London is never representative of the UK for anything, and should not be used to guide national policy for anything.

 

[muz379]

Certainly I'd have driven my own car to the alternative work location, 'made a bit on the mileage' and saved my employer some money compared with a taxi from my normal place of work. My insurer didn't charge me any more for business use.

What if that driving to an alternative work location took you into a clean air zone you wouldn't otherwise have entered ? , taken you into a confusing city centre that you wouldnt ordinarily drive in ? . Or taken you to a location where you have to park your car in an unsecured public car park rather than the secure one you usually use at your normal location .

I think its best traincrew stick to driving to their normal work locations , and their employers stick to getting them to other places using the agreed methods .

Some local authorities have trialled allowing private hire vehicles to use bus lanes as well which might make it quicker going via taxi in future anyway.

This isn't even relevant to the issue of the use of fax machines anyway .

 

[TUC]

What if that driving to an alternative work location took you into a clean air zone you wouldn't otherwise have entered ? , taken you into a confusing city centre that you wouldnt ordinarily drive in ? . Or taken you to a location where you have to park your car in an unsecured public car park rather than the secure one you usually use at your normal location .

I think its best traincrew stick to driving to their normal work locations , and their employers stick to getting them to other places using the agreed methods .

There is a marvellous new invention from 20 years ago called the satnav, or is that too recent for the rail industry?

 

[43066]

Again, the answer is the same way as the rest of us. Of course the employer pays fuel costs. Most car insurance policies will add driving in the course of employment, without additional charge as long as the driving itself is not for hire or reward.

There is a marvellous new invention from 20 years ago called the satnav, or is that too recent for the rail industry?

A non starter in most cases, for the reasons explained to you already, and “the rest of us” aren’t safety critical traincrew. Once again you have no understanding of how things work, and a sneering disregard for the views of people who actually work in the industry.

This thread seems to have been based on a false premise to begin with, and has degenerated into the usual suspects attacking the industry and complaining, despite no understanding of the issues.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2024 ==

I think its best traincrew stick to driving to their normal work locations , and their employers stick to getting them to other places using the agreed methods .

Some local authorities have trialled allowing private hire vehicles to use bus lanes as well which might make it quicker going via taxi in future anyway.

This isn't even relevant to the issue of the use of fax machines anyway .

Quite!

 

[trebor79]

As Bletch pointed out, if the current process, no matter how antiquated, is currently fulfilling it's function, there would need to be a good reason to move on from that. I mean, why would you? Just to tick a box that implies to some you've modernised? When all you've done is spent money when it wasn't required.

Well in that case why did we ever move on from steam lcomotives and vacuum brakes?
Why did we ever move on from the model T Ford, kids down coal mines etc.

Most pilots now don't use printed charts, big thick books of airport diagrams and paper checklists. It's all on an iPad, always to to date, quicker to access and easier to carry around.
If highly unionised pilots can modernise (I mean, that paper did the job right?), it is indeed completely insane that train driver unions need to be consulted on something so trivial as the medium and technology used to communicate diagrams.
Totally ridiculous. What difference does it actually make whether it's fax or an email?

 

[skyhigh]

I've not had a chance to wade through most of the thread, but a few thoughts from me -


The fax machines have already been replaced by digital systems. All business lines are now VOIP. Faxes are essentially just scanned to emails. The replies (if required) are then emailed to an admin/train crew supervisor at the local depot who will print and distribute them as required.


The same person gets any late notices or rosters via email and posts them on notice boards. In most cases, they are also the fire warden so if they're not present, the depot will not be open for crew.


In Northern faxes are only used to send copies of report forms (and guards can use a digital app), copies of repair slips (with all urgent issues raised via phone so if the fax goes missing it's no issue) and for drivers to request changes to leave.


If a driver sends off a leave request and gets nothing back, they have to chase it. They can't just assume it's granted. Thus a fax going missing won't cancel a train.


Finally, ASLEF have no issues with the concept of using email. It just needs to be properly discussed. For example, what happens if a device gets damaged while in the care of an employee? Electronic devices aren't allowed to be used by drivers while they are in the cab - so how would a form be filled in if it needed to be done urgently and they're no longer paper and instead done via an app? Sort all these finer details out and it can happen.


I know for a fact that the company hasn't even raised the issue of faxing since the last aborted deal in 2020/21. The company has had no interest in changing the arrangement. I suspect it's partly due to the fact that continuing with the current arrangement of 'modernised fax' is cheaper than issuing every driver with a phone/tablet.

Net benefit: - no maintenance contracts for faxes, no fax oil, no fax paper, no person getting off their butt to look at the fax, etc etc.

They are already multifunction devices. They are also used as copiers and printers. They send to email. So that's all hot air and already dealt with.

Because the network that supports fax machines will stop working in 2027.

All fax machines have been updated to use VOIP and send to email. It's future proofed.

No. But at least one Northern employee has said they do use fax machines. Who's telling porkies?

They look like fax machines. You send to a fax number, but the recipient gets the document on their email. So both are right. It's not a traditional fax, but to the user, it's a fax machine.

 

[TUC]

The deeper underlying issue here is one of culture.The public looks on with genuine puzzlement when issues such as this are treated as ones needing negotiation, additional payments and significant training, when none of that has been required in any of their work experiences, neither have they felt a desire or need for it. What makes it worse is that, when this is pointed out, the response is 'that shows how little you understand how railways work'. The problem is, that in itself is no justification for whether how they work is optimal or necessary. It does not convince the public.

 

[ianBR]

This whole issue just reinforces the view that most of public have that train drivers are overpaid dinsosaurs who are resistant to any change

Fax machines were awful and unreliable when they were in common use and are no doubt still as awful now.

I wonder if northern drivers will now demand more money if they have to handle a piece of normal paper rather than fax paper when PSTN technology is removed next year

 

[35B]

In Northern faxes are only used to send copies of report forms (and guards can use a digital app), copies of repair slips (with all urgent issues raised via phone so if the fax goes missing it's no issue) and for drivers to request changes to leave.

All of which are use cases ideally suited to being handled online. If the data is held electronically after submission, direct entry rather than processing of paper will increase efficiency, visibility and accuracy.

As for managing leave requests, they’ve been online at my employer for over 20 years, and it works well. There’s no issue over visibility of whether a claim has been approved.

Finally, ASLEF have no issues with the concept of using email. It just needs to be properly discussed. For example, what happens if a device gets damaged while in the care of an employee? Electronic devices aren't allowed to be used by drivers while they are in the cab - so how would a form be filled in if it needed to be done urgently and they're no longer paper and instead done via an app? Sort all these finer details out and it can happen.

As you say, issues that can be handled straightforwardly where there’s a will. But when I see rail staff repeating the mantra “no devices in the cab”, I am left wondering whether that is repeating the current rule, or actually an inability to contemplate the idea that a suitably restricted mode on a device would make the railway better and safer for all.

 

[Dai Corner]

The deeper underlying issue here is one of culture.The public looks on with genuine puzzlement when issues such as this are treated as ones needing negotiation, additional payments and significant training, when none of that has been required in any of their work experiences, neither have they felt a desire or need for it. What makes it worse is that, when this is pointed out, the response is 'that shows how little you understand how railways work'. The problem is, that in itself is no justification for whether how they work is optimal or necessary. It does not convince the public.

Conversely, those who work on the railways seem to have little understanding of how the rest of the world works. The irony of railway staff typing away on their computers, phones or tablets explaining why their rosters and notices can only be sent out on paper is overwhelming.

Oh, and if they want public money to subsidise their industry they have to accept public scrutiny. Nobody cares whether Aldi, Barclays or GB Railfreight use fax machines though.

 

[muz379]

There is a marvellous new invention from 20 years ago called the satnav, or is that too recent for the rail industry?

Thats fine , are the company responsible for making sure it is updated regularly ? Because the speed at which road layouts in major cities are being altered , certain areas pedestrianised or redesignated for busses only means that sat navs are often out of date .

I guess they could get an app to do that on the tablets when they negotiate properly for them to be given out to drivers ....

But tbh even with a sat nav some major towns/cities can be a nightmare to drive into and out of if you are unfamilliar . At best the sat nav is a mildly helpful distraction . So I dont think I like the sound of driving myself to the next depot down the road in another town and leaving my car in some dodgy car park only to return to it at 1am when there is nobofy about . But thanks all the same ,

I reiterate I think it is best that traincrew stick to booking on at their agreed place of work , and any travel between places of work not by train is by the already agreed methods .

Anyway , none of this is relevant to the issue at hand in this thread which is the use of faxes.

If a driver sends off a leave request and gets nothing back, they have to chase it. They can't just assume it's granted. Thus a fax going missing won't cancel a train.

I know for a fact that the company hasn't even raised the issue of faxing since the last aborted deal in 2020/21. The company has had no interest in changing the arrangement. I suspect it's partly due to the fact that continuing with the current arrangement of 'modernised fax' is cheaper than issuing every driver with a phone/tablet.

Preceisely this .

I wonder if northern drivers will now demand more money if they have to handle a piece of normal paper rather than fax paper when PSTN technology is removed next year

They already handle "a piece of normal paper" everyday when they book on and get given their schedule card with that days work on ...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2024 ==

The public looks on with genuine puzzlement when issues such as this are treated as ones needing negotiation, additional payments and significant training,

Nobody started talking about negotiation , payments or training until people started mooting the ideas of drivers having a tablet , that can then do all manner of things and replace lots of things not just a fax machine . Or people started mooting drivers taking themselves from place to place .

I mean some of the public would probably also be genuinely puzzled if they saw the rulebook . Doesnt mean we should just forget about it all .

 

[43066]

The deeper underlying issue here is one of culture.The public looks on with genuine puzzlement when issues such as this are treated as ones needing negotiation, additional payments and significant training, when none of that has been required in any of their work experiences, neither have they felt a desire or need for it. What makes it worse is that, when this is pointed out, the response is 'that shows how little you understand how railways work'. The problem is, that in itself is no justification for whether how they work is optimal or necessary. It does not convince the public.

I spent ten years in roles outside the railway industry, all of which included significant training on various aspects of the technology that was used. I wouldn’t say the training on the railway was significantly different in that regard; it’s just how sensible employers operate in the modern world. Negotiation of changes to working practices is just something that happens in unionised industries - whether people like that or agree with it or not doesn’t make any difference.

I’d also suggest the vast majority of the public don’t spend their time questioning the minutiae of an industry they don’t work in. What’s irritating is snide comments from people who clearly aren’t willing to listen to explanations of why their simplistic suggestions don’t work, or why there are good reasons for things to be done a certain way. Why should people waste their time explaining things to people who are clearly only interested in complaining?!

The irony of railway staff typing away on their computers, phones or tablets explaining why their rosters and notices can only be sent out on paper is overwhelming.

The rosters and notices aren’t “sent out on paper”, though, and fax machines aren’t generally used either.

 

[LAX54]

In a Signalbox, using the fax system can be quicker (sometimes) than using electronic means, thinking of SPAD/ Signal Iregg forms etc, far easier to write on a paper form, as its being dictated, shove in the fax and send.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I think a lot of the members of this forum seem to forget that the Train Driver grade is made up of a diverse range of people from a diverse range of backgrounds all with their own individual human autonomy. There might be a willingness to lap up the mainstream media’s labelling of us all as belligerent, militant diehard union fanatics but that really isn’t the reality.

Most of us (myself included) really do not care whether we’re using email or fax machine, our companies provide the equipment for us to carry out our duties and we utilise it. I have a company tablet which is useful, I also scan and send off reports/forms etc using the equipment the company has provided. I also use a paper diagram day by day which is provided by the company.
If I’m honest, I find this thread weird and the comments from the ‘Driver haters’ bizarre. There is a real lack of understanding (or dare I say it, empathy) surrounding our role from outsiders who, if it weren’t for these ridiculous headlines, would have given as much thought towards our role as I suspect they do the numerous other job roles in the world.

I am employed by a TOC, not by a union, I do what my company (the one paying my wages) tells me to. There’s even a post I’ve noticed that seems to insinuate that electrical devices being switched off in the driving cab is somehow a form of ludditeism? It’s a policy that my TOC has, if I contravene that policy, I risk being sacked (and rightly so). In fact, if a serious incident occurred and I was found to be using a tablet or mobile device when I shouldn’t, I could potentially be looking at criminal charges.

I am neither anti union nor pro union, nor am I anti company nor pro company, I’m a person, paid by a company to do a professional job adhering to their processes and standards. That goes for the vast majority of Train Drivers that I’ve ever met.

 

[Bikeman78]

On leading page in the Times also.

It is clear from reading some of the comments here that those in the railway industry seriously do not understand how astounded real world people are.

It really is an appalling advert for the industry as it is today.

Has it been suggested anywhere that the use of fax machines results in trains being cancelled? If not, then who cares? Northern have dark bigger problems to worry about.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2024 ==

How would the world ever process with the attitude of some here of 'if it works, why change it'?

I guess you meant progress rather than process? I'm also guessing that autocorrect screwed it up for you. The irony!

 

[TUC]

I’d also suggest the vast majority of the public don’t spend their time questioning the minutiae of an industry they don’t work in. What’s irritating is snide comments from people who clearly aren’t willing to listen to explanations of why their simplistic suggestions don’t work, or why there are good reasons for things to be done a certain way. Why should people waste their time explaining things to people who are clearly only interested in complaining?!

Successful businesses treat their customers' opinions as highly valued, not dismissively

Any business that uses very large amounts of public money should rightly expect the public to scrutinise and challenge how that business operates.

On both levers scrutiny and challenge by the public should be accepted as a legitimate and normal part of life.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2024 ==

I guess you meant progress rather than process? I'm also guessing that autocorrect screwed it up for you. The irony!

It was a typo all of my own. If I'd had autocorrect switched on it might have fixed it. The irony!

 

[AndrewE]

In my Civil Service office, we didn't use the fax much until around 2012 the Ministry got a service called GoldFax where incoming faxes to a specific Goldfax number were converted to PDF email attachments and sent to our shared inbox. All of a sudden, I realised, we could, by faxing a paper document to that number, in effect scan it electronically. This tided us over until we were issued with a huge networked Xerox multifunction device in 2016. It worked the other way around; we could send an email to a specific GoldFax address with a fax number as the subject and it would emerge from the fax machine at that number. GoldFax is still a thing now.

My concern about "clever" machines like scanners which create pdfs is that it seems they can misinterpret numbers or letters (or did at one time.) see https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-23588202

Scans made by some Xerox copiers are changing numbers on documents, a German computer scientist has discovered.
David Kriesel found, external that scans he made of construction plans had altered room dimensions.
Other users have replicated the problem, which has been blamed on faults with compression software used in a setting offered by the models. The company has not yet issued a fix for the problem, but it told the BBC it was preparing a statement.
Mr Kriesel said he worried that numbers could be altered on invoices and other important documents.
...
In his tests, Mr Kriesel found that often the number "6" would be turned into an "8", and vice versa, with other numbers being affected too. One room on his reproduced plans had its dimensions shrunk from 21.11m to 14.13m.
...
He said the anomaly is caused by Jbig2, an image compression standard. Image compression is typically used to make file sizes smaller.
Jbig2 would substitute figures it thought were the same, meaning similar numbers were being wrongly swapped.

Mr Kriesel said the two models affected were the Xerox Workcentre 7535 and 7556.
However, since posting details of the fault online, several other users have come forward with problems on other machines.

Hopefully not a problem when a word-processed document is turned into a pdf, but I did get some very strange replies to my letters to HMRC which I strongly suspect were a consequence of them scanning things sent to them (to send electronically to whichever office was allocated the task.)
This could have caused a problem with scanned then emailed rosters...

 

[Dai Corner]

My concern about "clever" machines like scanners which create pdfs is that it seems they can misinterpret numbers or letters (or did at one time.) see https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-23588202

Hopefully not a problem when a word-processed document is turned into a pdf, but I did get some very strange replies to my letters to HMRC which I strongly suspect were a consequence of them scanning things sent to them (to send electronically to whichever office was allocated the task.)
This could have caused a problem with scanned then emailed rosters...

So can the human eye, especially when reading less than perfect handwriting. Another reason to do away with paper and send messages by email or similar means.

Please don't tell me people are word processing documents, printing them, scanning them to pdf and then emailing them.

 

[43066]

Successful businesses treat their customers' opinions as highly valued, not dismissively

The issue isn’t so much the questions being asked, it’s the refusal to accept the answers provided, and the evident lack of respect or empathy for those providing explanations from a position of knowledge.

Most successful businesses I’ve worked for (including some highly successful ones
in the legal and professional services space) didn’t generally engage with detailed scrutiny of their back office functions from “enthusiasts”, with a preoccupation with the Ts and Cs of their workforce. That was despite consuming large amounts of public money in some cases.

I’d also suggest most regular railway customers in the north of England will, quite rightly, be far more concerned with why Northern keep cancelling services, rather than the minutiae of how documents are sent between depots, which is an irrelevant distraction (and in any case inaccurately reported).

Any business that uses very large amounts of public money should rightly expect the public to scrutinise and challenge how that business operates.

On both levers scrutiny and challenge by the public should be accepted as a legitimate and normal part of life.

Well the railway is now moving fully into the public sector, so you can expect more of an NHS style approach to “customer service” and “scrutiny” from now on.

As someone who works in the industry, I’m not necessarily in favour of that personally, but I’ll only really worry when passenger numbers reduce.

 

[Randomer]

In a Signalbox, using the fax system can be quicker (sometimes) than using electronic means, thinking of SPAD/ Signal Iregg forms etc, far easier to write on a paper form, as its being dictated, shove in the fax and send.

So in my (non railway) industry we still use paper forms for things like incident reporting. My employer has found a much better compliance rate, as well as increased accuracy if done immediately post incident, if people can quickly fill them in by hand and then use a scan to email machine to send them to the responsible person. It's actually more efficient generally as well as people fill them in quicker on site, not everyone has a company issued device.

For safety critical briefings it can often be much easier for it to be printed, shown to the people concerned, initialled on the last page or page by page to prove it and then scanned to keep a record. Doing the same by email with read receipts can be an absolute pain as it doesn't prove people have read the text at all. Especially with larger groups of staff it also means they can discuss any implications for there ongoing work much easier if everyone is in a room reading it.

I suspect a lot of what people think of as fax machines are now the same scan to email on one end and print from email at the other. Some of them even look like old fax machines.

 

[Dai Corner]

The issue isn’t so much the questions being asked, it’s the refusal to accept the answers provided, and the evident lack of respect or empathy for those providing explanations from a position of knowledge.

I'm actually finding the discussion quite nostalgic, in the same way I enjoy memories of portions being shunted off and on to trains en route, locos running round, the sound of doors being slammed shut or guards on Paytrains writing out tickets by hand and keeping the carbon copy for their records.

Whilst understanding some of the reasons given for retaining well-established procedures, the impression I'm getting from some posters here is that the railway has nothing to learn about internal communications from other industries. I have to use the word 'ironic' again as they were pioneers of the telegraph and telephone in their early days.

 

[contrex]

My concern about "clever" machines like scanners which create pdfs is that it seems they can misinterpret numbers or letters (or did at one time.)

The fax-to-pdf trick I used at work before we got a scanner only gave an image of the pages, and likewise the MFD (networked scanner, colour printer, and photocopier). I have a combined scanner and printer at home, and it can produce PDFs if I want, but I have to explicitly turn on optical character recognition (OCR) if I want the result to be text that I can edit or copy. I must say that OCR seems to be everywhere these days (e.g. Windows Snipping Tool) but I don't trust it one hundred percent. I am ultimately responsible for documents I produce, and if it's important I'll spell check and read thoroughly.