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South Wales 'Metro' updates

Envoy

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I remember as a child trainspotting at Cardiff General and seeing the trains for Clarence Road depart from Platform 8.
The ironic thing is that the new present day platform 8 will hopefully eventually have a link from the western end of the platform down to what is now the car park which will become the platforms for the tram-train to the Bay. Thus it will be possible to go on one tram-train (Class 398) from the City Line to the Bay. Eventually, it is hoped to re-build the former rail route from Fairwater to Cregiau to extend this service.

However, top priority must be to sort out Cardiff West Junction so that the City Line can get 4 trains per hour rather than the present 2.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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TfW trains run under wires for at least some of their journeys (apart from the new CVL):
Cardiff-Newport-Severn Tunnel Jn (21 miles)
Oxley-Wolverhampton-Birmingham International (21 miles)
Crewe-Manchester (31 miles)
Acton Grange-Warrington-Chat Moss-Manchester Airport (35 miles)
Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St (13 miles)

So a total of 121 miles of unexploited electrification.
 
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edwin_m

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TfW trains run under wires for at least some of their journeys (apart from the new CVL):
Cardiff-Newport-Severn Tunnel Jn (21 miles)
Oxley-Wolverhampton-Birmingham International (21 miles)
Crewe-Manchester (31 miles)
Acton Grange-Warrington-Chat Moss-Manchester Airport (35 miles)
Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St (13 miles)

So a total of 121 miles of unexploited electrification.
Apart from part of the first one, these only have a TfW train every hour. Diesel car-miles miles under the wires per day would be a better metric.
 

Meerkat

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TfW trains run under wires for at least some of their journeys (apart from the new CVL):
Cardiff-Newport-Severn Tunnel Jn (21 miles)
Oxley-Wolverhampton-Birmingham International (21 miles)
Crewe-Manchester (31 miles)
Acton Grange-Warrington-Chat Moss-Manchester Airport (35 miles)
Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St (13 miles)

So a total of 121 miles of unexploited electrification.
And diesels chugging away under wires in city centres
 

anthony263

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If more capacity is needed then adding a few extra units compatible with existing stock will make the most sense (or extending a few sets). Them being diesel only is really neither here nor there. There is an absolute lack of OLE for anything to run on TFW’s routes, outside of the CVL.

Level boarding wasn’t specced because it wouldn’t work basically anywhere on that same network, platform heights are all over the place, with some even having humps installed to save on the costs of raising the platform height.

Perhaps if we saw more OLE erected, such as Wolves - Shrewsbury then You may start to get into the territory where bi-modes could be justified.
To go with that though, do we know of any 2 or 3 car bi-modes currently in UK operation? Many services don’t justify more carriages than that and no one has the cash to be spending large sums on longer Bi-mode sets to run around empty.

TFW’s new timetables will also be reliant upon the Class 197 performance capabilities which, any bi-modes are not likely to be able to keep to on diesel, especially if they were only 2 or 3 carriages.
Ultimately the 756’s are 75mph units and the 231’s are 90mph but do not have the fuel capacity to do the diagrams operated by the 197’s.

Ultimately, So many issues, so little money to rectify them.

This also goes for the loco replacements. It would be great if 93’s could replace the 67’s but their diesel / battery capabilities would be insufficient up the Marches.
Need class 99s equipped with ETH

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The ironic thing is that the new present day platform 8 will hopefully eventually have a link from the western end of the platform down to what is now the car park which will become the platforms for the tram-train to the Bay. Thus it will be possible to go on one tram-train (Class 398) from the City Line to the Bay. Eventually, it is hoped to re-build the former rail route from Fairwater to Cregiau to extend this service.

However, top priority must be to sort out Cardiff West Junction so that the City Line can get 4 trains per hour rather than the present 2.
Only needs £20 million for one piece of extra track I was told to allow for 4tph but would require grade separation for any additional 4tph they propose up to beddau and Pontyclun on the rebuilt line from fairwater
 

Lurcheroo

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TfW trains run under wires for at least some of their journeys (apart from the new CVL):
Cardiff-Newport-Severn Tunnel Jn (21 miles)
Oxley-Wolverhampton-Birmingham International (21 miles)
Crewe-Manchester (31 miles)
Acton Grange-Warrington-Chat Moss-Manchester Airport (35 miles)
Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St (13 miles)

So a total of 121 miles of unexploited electrification.
So incredibly little, I very much doubt it would even come close to the additional diesel burnt having to lug around all the equipment for running on electric.
Need class 99s equipped with ETH
75mph top speed would be an issue so would need re-gearing.
 

Richard Scott

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So incredibly little, I very much doubt it would even come close to the additional diesel burnt having to lug around all the equipment for running on electric.
I doubt there's a huge weight penalty, a transformer and pantograph. Transformers are quite heavy but not going to make more than a couple of tons difference. Fairly negligible in grand scheme of things so worth it to allow extra electric running. Would also reduce number of diesel trains at some stations, which can only be a good thing.
 

I'm here now

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Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction is only about 21 miles. Presumably it wasn't considered worthwhile procuring bi-modes for such a short stretch.

GWR do use bi-modes for Swansea-Paddington and Cardiff-Penzance, of course. The former would have been EMUs if the electrification plans had been completed and the latter are only there by accident as it was desirable to banish the HSTs to the far South West and the IETs were the only replacement stock available.

Electrifying Ebbw Junction-Ebbw Vale would be a quick win if the politicians decided to find the money.
Don’t GA do it for long trips without any wires w/ the Flirts? Would battery be possible on the Ebbw vale perhaps…

(Probably straying into speculative)
 

Lurcheroo

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I doubt there's a huge weight penalty, a transformer and pantograph. Transformers are quite heavy but not going to make more than a couple of tons difference. Fairly negligible in grand scheme of things so worth it to allow extra electric running. Would also reduce number of diesel trains at some stations, which can only be a good thing.
Well it’s not just that, DMU’s have 1 engine per carriage, where as if we look at the 5 car 802’s they only have 3 much larger and higher rated engines.
 

Richard Scott

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Well it’s not just that, DMU’s have 1 engine per carriage, where as if we look at the 5 car 802’s they only have 3 much larger and higher rated engines.
It's all pretty insignificant in grand scheme of things. The savings on fuel, even over short electrified sections, will more than compensate for a slight increase due to the small weight penalty.
I would also speculate that three larger engines and associated auxiliaries and lighter than 5 smaller ones.
One of the quoted sections of Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction must be around 20 miles, that's a reasonable distance; some of the others were even further.
 

positron

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Does anyone know if the 398 depot at Taffs Well was built with any extra capacity? For example if they were to get the north west corridor and/or route to Newport road approved, does it have slack for if they ordered a few more trams? Or would they perhaps have to build more stabling elsewhere (which would need wires).

Seems pretty full in most photos of it, especially with talk from some of perhaps using them on the coryton to Penarth services in future it would be unfortunate if the new depot is already full.
 

Dai Corner

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Does anyone know if the 398 depot at Taffs Well was built with any extra capacity? For example if they were to get the north west corridor and/or route to Newport road approved, does it have slack for if they ordered a few more trams? Or would they perhaps have to build more stabling elsewhere (which would need wires).

Seems pretty full in most photos of it, especially with talk from some of perhaps using them on the coryton to Penarth services in future it would be unfortunate if the new depot is already full.
I've read that it's uncomfortably small even for the planned number of 398s and a larger site would have been sought if it wasn't for the politicians.
 

62484GlenLyon

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Message #6566 mentioned Greater Anglia's Flirts. The 12 car 745s are straight 25kV electrics. The 755s, both 3 car and 4 car versions, are 25kV electric/diesel bi-modes. They need the bi-mode facility for every route they are diagrammed to work. None of the routes from Norwich that they are used on is wired but it is common to see them in Norwich station with the pan up and diesel shut down when there is a long lay over before the next working.
 

Broseley man

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Message #6566 mentioned Greater Anglia's Flirts. The 12 car 745s are straight 25kV electrics. The 755s, both 3 car and 4 car versions, are 25kV electric/diesel bi-modes. They need the bi-mode facility for every route they are diagrammed to work. None of the routes from Norwich that they are used on is wired but it is common to see them in Norwich station with the pan up and diesel shut down when there is a long lay over before the next working.
I've read that it's uncomfortably small even for the planned number of 398s and a larger site would have been sought if it wasn't for the politicians.
What do you mean by 'if it wasn't for the politicians'?

I think the politicians had to make this all happen and deserve a lot of praise for their foresight and courage. Doubtless there are things in the scheme we will disagree with. Don't underestimate the effort put in by the politicians to drive this through. Perhaps you mean the depot had to be at Taffs Well to get some folks on board?
 

anthony263

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I've read that it's uncomfortably small even for the planned number of 398s and a larger site would have been sought if it wasn't for the politicians.
I believe it can't accommodate all 36 class 398s so units are stabled at Treherbert. Any extra units tfw will need somewhere to put them as I doubt Canton has room. Maybe a site over by pengam
 

Last Hurrah

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Taffs Well Depot has A470 one side & Pontypridd line other side

Only way the site could be enlarged would be to acquire part of the industrial site the Northern end of the depot
 

John R

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I believe it can't accommodate all 36 class 398s so units are stabled at Treherbert. Any extra units tfw will need somewhere to put them as I doubt Canton has room. Maybe a site over by pengam
I don’t see why that’s a problem. Units have been stabled at Treherbert for years (also Rhymney).
 

AdamWW

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Saw a TfW 153 today with a light shining down onto the track from one end. Some kind of monitoring device?

(Oddly, as part of a 150+153 combination on the Coryton Line which isn't ideal given that the platform at Ty Glas is only two coaches long).
 

John R

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Will the redundant DMU's be cascaded to other areas or withdrawn?
They are being withdrawn as they reach their C6 overhaul, as it is a costly process which the lessor is not willing to pay for.
 

Dai Corner

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What do you mean by 'if it wasn't for the politicians'?

I think the politicians had to make this all happen and deserve a lot of praise for their foresight and courage. Doubtless there are things in the scheme we will disagree with. Don't underestimate the effort put in by the politicians to drive this through. Perhaps you mean the depot had to be at Taffs Well to get some folks on board?
I believe the site was specified by the Welsh Government when the franchise was being advertised. Bidders might have chosen a different location if they'd had a choice.
 

Broseley man

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I believe the site was specified by the Welsh Government when the franchise was being advertised. Bidders might have chosen a different location if they'd had a choice.
Fair enough. I am being a bit defensive about 'politicians' as they are getting an increasingly bad deal from the press and social media. We are all guilty of it to some extent of course. Someone has to make decisions. I think we all get cross when the decision making process seems to drag on forever so when a decision is made in a timely fashion we have to allow that it might not have covered all bases. Plus the comment from chargesmith above is valid, I think.
 

Envoy

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I have just found a You Tube Video by ‘Bob’s Rail Relics’ about the development of railways in Cardiff to the present day. It really is excellent and the research / putting the video together must have taken many hours. The Cardiff Riverside station was immediately south of Cardiff Central - roughly where it is planned to have the new tram-train platforms for services across Callaghan Square to the Bay. See >
 
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Brush 4

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They are being withdrawn as they reach their C6 overhaul, as it is a costly process which the lessor is not willing to pay for.
If some are replaced before their C6 is due, will they be cascaded, as they should be? There are other TOC's who need extra units to lengthen overcrowded services.
 

Caaardiff

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TfW trains run under wires for at least some of their journeys (apart from the new CVL):
Cardiff-Newport-Severn Tunnel Jn (21 miles)
Oxley-Wolverhampton-Birmingham International (21 miles)
Crewe-Manchester (31 miles)
Acton Grange-Warrington-Chat Moss-Manchester Airport (35 miles)
Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St (13 miles)

So a total of 121 miles of unexploited electrification.
The majority of that being in Midlands and North West, which would mean some major changes to the TFW fleet and timetable plans. 197's have their purpose in the North/Midlands as well as their home Depot at Chester. Introducing a new bi-mode fleet would mean a new Depot needed to serve those routes. Holyhead - Birmingham interacts with Birmingham - Cambrian so needs to be 197's.

In the South, it's only really Cardiff - Swansea that might see electrification in the near future. A couple more 231's/756s to run Swanline routes could be ordered, bearing in mind TFW's aspirations to run to Bristol with new stations in South East Wales. Although it's not confirmed which TOC will serve that route.

More long term, the Mk4's will eventually need replacing. Rather than find a new bi-mode loco, TFW would be better off ordering a new & more consistent long distance traction. For example a 5 car IET with on board kitchen and enabling them to run a consistent hourly Swansea-Manchester, with Swansea - Newport & Crewe - Manchester being under wires.
 

Tetragon213

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The majority of that being in Midlands and North West, which would mean some major changes to the TFW fleet and timetable plans. 197's have their purpose in the North/Midlands as well as their home Depot at Chester. Introducing a new bi-mode fleet would mean a new Depot needed to serve those routes. Holyhead - Birmingham interacts with Birmingham - Cambrian so needs to be 197's.

In the South, it's only really Cardiff - Swansea that might see electrification in the near future. A couple more 231's/756s to run Swanline routes could be ordered, bearing in mind TFW's aspirations to run to Bristol with new stations in South East Wales. Although it's not confirmed which TOC will serve that route.

More long term, the Mk4's will eventually need replacing. Rather than find a new bi-mode loco, TFW would be better off ordering a new & more consistent long distance traction. For example a 5 car IET with on board kitchen and enabling them to run a consistent hourly Swansea-Manchester, with Swansea - Newport & Crewe - Manchester being under wires.
Wasn't Cardiff-Swansea proposed and then written off after the GWEP overruns?
 

John R

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If some are replaced before their C6 is due, will they be cascaded, as they should be? There are other TOC's who need extra units to lengthen overcrowded services.
As I understand it the problem is the other way around, in that their C6s are falling due before TfW would ideally like to release them.

I doubt any other TOC would be interested in relatively short lease agreements anyway, and it would have to be agreed by DfT too.
 

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