Loco haulage of EMUs?

[L+Y]

I preface this by saying I know the chances of this happening in practice are about zero!

However- inspired by some of the threads looking for use for displaced modern EMUs, how possible is it, on a purely practical level, to use a locomotive (I guess cl 68 or 93) to haul an EMU (say class 350) in passenger service?

And as a secondary question, are the engineering challenges to make this happen greater, lesser, or about equivalent to fitting diesel engines/batteries to existing EMUs?

 

[Dr Hoo]

On today’s railway, largely shorn of run-round loops, I would imagine that push-pull working is essential. This then raises the issue of through control systems rather than just ‘towing’ a ‘dumb’ unit.

 

[Vespa]

At the ELR annual diesel gala in October 1991, Harry Needle, with his then-owned Class 25 No. (25262), placed his locomotive in the centre of the two units. The units were through wired to have the diesel in the middle and the capability to be driven from both ends of the units in a push pull mode.

It can be done.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I preface this by saying I know the chances of this happening in practice are about zero!

However- inspired by some of the threads looking for use for displaced modern EMUs, how possible is it, on a purely practical level, to use a locomotive (I guess cl 68 or 93) to haul an EMU (say class 350) in passenger service?

And as a secondary question, are the engineering challenges to make this happen greater, lesser, or about equivalent to fitting diesel engines/batteries to existing EMUs?

It's what Scotrail should be looking at as part of their decarbonization program.

Get the wires up to Perth then recondition Class 67s (or 37s) to haul/push purpose built new 6 coach InterCity EMUs to Inverness and Aberdeen.

Then as the wires go up haul from Dundee, Arbroath, and so forth to Aberdeen. Pitlochry and Aviemore towards Inverness.

 

[Carntyne]

It's what Scotrail should be looking at as part of their decarbonization program.

Get the wires up to Perth then recondition Class 67s (or 37s) to haul/push purpose built new 6 coach InterCity EMUs to Inverness and Aberdeen.

Then as the wires go up haul from Dundee, Arbroath, and so forth to Aberdeen. Pitlochry and Aviemore towards Inverness.

Or just get bi-modes. Less hassle and less likely to break down.

 

[172007]

Have we now found a worthy successor in this forum to the humble Class 442 "Wessex Electric" aka "the generic solution"; can be dragged anywhere by a loco to form a train?

I present the class 350/2

 

[CW2]

We seem to be in danger of reinventing the 4 REP + 8TC plus 33/1 solution for the 21st Century.

I must admit the notion of 350/2 plus class 68 on Scottish long distance services is quite appealing...

 

[D365]

At the ELR annual diesel gala in October 1991, Harry Needle, with his then-owned Class 25 No. (25262), placed his locomotive in the centre of the two units. The units were through wired to have the diesel in the middle and the capability to be driven from both ends of the units in a push pull mode.

It can be done.

I’m not sure what you are getting at. Anything can be done with enough money and time.

 

[Vespa]

I’m not sure what you are getting at. Anything can be done with enough money and time.

That was my point, it is achievable as it was done with two 504 emu.

Hooking up a generator on rails is feasible and portable between classes either in between two emu units or a top and tail set up, a similar thing have been done for trolleybuses in the past, I'm surprised more isn't made of this technology.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Or just get bi-modes. Less hassle and less likely to break down.

It would be wasteful to build new diesel engines for bimodes, when there are dozens of under-utilised 67s (and 37s) that could haul InterCity class EMUs for the relatively short period until the wires go up. Perth is the perfect place for it to happen.

 

[Class15]

It would be wasteful to build new diesel engines for bimodes, when there are dozens of under-utilised 67s (and 37s) that could haul InterCity class EMUs for the relatively short period until the wires go up. Perth is the perfect place for it to happen.

37s?! Aren’t they a bit on the old side for passenger work?

 

[BlueLeanie]

37s?! Aren’t they a bit on the old side for passenger work?

They are indeed in their 60s.

If they are well maintained and remain legal to use, there's nothing to stop them reaching a century.

And yes, I'd probably make a special trip to Perth just to be hauled beyond the wires by a 37 to Inverness.

 

[43096]

It would be wasteful to build new diesel engines for bimodes, when there are dozens of under-utilised 67s (and 37s) that could haul InterCity class EMUs for the relatively short period until the wires go up. Perth is the perfect place for it to happen.

That’ll be the same 67s that are failing miserably with TfW?

 

[HSTEd]

It would be wasteful to build new diesel engines for bimodes, when there are dozens of under-utilised 67s (and 37s) that could haul InterCity class EMUs for the relatively short period until the wires go up. Perth is the perfect place for it to happen.

The Class 67 is a deeply flawed locomotive, given its major axle load issues.
And the Class 37 is extremely polluting, given it is based on positively ancient technology.

And is it going to be a relatively short period?

 

[BlueLeanie]

The Class 67 is a deeply flawed locomotive, given its major axle load issues.
And the Class 37 is extremely polluting, given it is based on positively ancient technology.

And is it going to be a relatively short period?

Pollution is important. So the calculation would be like for like. How much more polluting is a single (freshly overhauled and well maintained) Class 37 hauling an EMU rake operating from Perth to Inverness compared to two HST Power Cars operating from Glasgow to Inverness.

There is a clear commitment to decarbonising Scotland's Railway. I have no doubt there will be wires in place in my lifetime.

 

[skyhigh]

How much more polluting is a single (freshly overhauled and well maintained) Class 37 hauling an EMU rake operating from Perth to Inverness compared to two HST Power Cars operating from Glasgow to Inverness.

The engines in the HSTs were replaced, so they're not that old.

So I suspect you'd find that the HST is more environmentally friendly than a hypothetical class 37 hauled EMU.

 

[HSTEd]

Pollution is important. So the calculation would be like for like. How much more polluting is a single (freshly overhauled and well maintained) Class 37 hauling an EMU rake operating from Perth to Inverness compared to two HST Power Cars operating from Glasgow to Inverness.

Well, no, the calculation would likely be something rather more modern than the HST Power Cars. Those will apparently be gone in the next few years either way.

The Class 37 will not be able to overcome its ancient technology that predates all meaningful emissions standards.

It's hardly going to be an attractive prospect for a railway that will be competing with the likes of Ember and their electric coaches.

EDIT:
And as noted above, the HST power cars have not got their original engines. They will likely do better than the Class 37.

EDIT #2:

If one was minded to attempt a mass conversion of dual voltage EMUs, you'd probably proceed on the basis of constructing a run of walk-through generator vehicles that could be spliced into formations, with the generators coupled to the third rail bus.
However, I don't think anyone is contemplating the conversion of dozens or hundreds of units necessary to make it worthwhile.

If the Class 450 battery trial works, maybe the 350s could go for conversion to 450s to join that programme.

 

[Carntyne]

It would be wasteful to build new diesel engines for bimodes, when there are dozens of under-utilised 67s (and 37s) that could haul InterCity class EMUs for the relatively short period until the wires go up. Perth is the perfect place for it to happen.

Yes, I'm sure passengers north of Perth want to see journey times increase, and old, unreliable locomotives back on the scene. Progress.

 

[Snow1964]

If you were to sacrifice some floor space then could put diesel generators in. It's not going to be a huge lump like those 500-600HP units in 1950s Southern region thumper DEMUs.

These days there are plenty of relatively small 200+HP engines available in cars, actually small enough to go in a soundproofed steel box under back to back seats. Although more practically a partitioned compartment housing the diesel.

It would probably be better having 3.5 vehicles out of 4 for passengers, than no vehicles because they are stored as unused EMUs, especially if they replace aging crowded 2car DMUs

 

[YorksLad12]

I'd had a similar thought. If an 800 can drag (or push) an 801, are there any other diesel/electric combinations out there? It's not a perfect solution, obviously; in some cases you'd be supplementing a 2-car unit with a 3-car one!

 

[ABB125]

With the ScotRail example - how about using pairs of HST power cars back to back as a single locomotive? Modern(ish) engines, running as a pair so has redundancy, fuel savings compared with running the same HST sets under the wires all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh...

Might need a bit of work to make coupling easier at the pointy end?

 

[vuzzeho]

If TPE replaced its 185s, would they be compatible with 350s? They're both Desiros, and the 185s are very powerful, so could they pull the 350s when away from the wires?

 

[skyhigh]

If TPE replaced its 185s, would they be compatible with 350s?

No.

They're both Desiros, and the 185s are very powerful, so could they pull the 350s when away from the wires?

There is no way of transferring any meaningful power over the coupler, so it would fairly swiftly become very cold and very dark in the 350.

 

[CBlue]

That was my point, it is achievable as it was done with two 504 emu.

Hooking up a generator on rails is feasible and portable between classes either in between two emu units or a top and tail set up, a similar thing have been done for trolleybuses in the past, I'm surprised more isn't made of this technology.

A one-off isolated ocurrence is very, very different from operating a whole fleet over what would be far greater distances, especially with any infrastructure changes that would be needed to service what is effectively a lash-up.

The last lash-up was the 769 and look how well that went for GWR.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This all just seems unnecessary complicated and, frankly, an excuse for more locomotives to be on the network for enthusiasts to bash. We should have learnt from the 230 fiascos, 769 issues and 67+MK4 issues by now, not to tinker around with old stuff for the sake of it.

 

[I'm here now]

Could you do it the other way around as elec locos are more powerful (and reliable?)?

 

[D365]

This all just seems unnecessary complicated and, frankly, an excuse for more locomotives to be on the network for enthusiasts to bash. We should have learnt from the 230 fiascos, 769 issues and 67+MK4 issues by now, not to tinker around with old stuff for the sake of it.

If contributors read the very first post, they should understand that this isn’t a ’serious’ discussion

 

[Harpo]

If contributors read the very first post, they should understand that this isn’t a ’serious’ discussion

Splendid. So how many former London Underground battery locos would be needed for Perth to Inverness drags?

Or is it time to remove that dinky little engine from the 73s and stuff them full of batteries?

 

[43096]

Splendid. So how many former London Underground battery locos would be needed for Perth to Inverness drags?

Or is it time to remove that dinky little ICE from the 73s and stuff them full of batteries?

Can’t we just call it what it is, a diesel engine, rather than this ICE nonsense? An ICE is a German train…

 

[gingertom]

You could always take a small loco and insert it into the middle of an emu rake. It wouldn't have to have cabs for a driver, it could be walk-through, you could fit it with 4x Daimler Benz V8 engines or some mix of battery packs. You could call the result a class 755.