Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Austriantrain]

Alternatively if you had two 200m units, you could have two trains coming from separate Schengen destinations, each with 2 units. One for UK-bound passengers, locked except for stops at stations with passport control, one that carries intra-Schengen journeys. They could both drop their Schengen portions at a suitable location, and combine the UK portions for transit to London. It would potentially be a minor bit of shuffling but with modern couplings and a disciplined crew you should save a lot of time compared to a full security sweep.

The best location would be Lille, from where the second set could run to Brussels and even Amsterdam, if the market is there. It then really depends if the numbers add up for a 200 m-set through the tunnel.

 

[Trainbike46]

Filling the train at Lille with UK-bound passengers might be a challenge

yes, I'm not sure how many Lille-UK passengers there are. The limited number of Eurostars that stops there suggests not loads

 

[TheWierdOne]

the whole point of a high speed service is that it's limited stop. Stopping at Lille and Calais to bugger about with shunting is destroying an extremely time-sensitive operation's main selling point.

I wasn’t suggesting that the trains won’t be limited stop, I was suggesting they stop at places they already do. High speed trains already have longer dwell times because of the time it takes to load and unload passengers. The only extra stop would, in this case, be Calais, but that won’t be a disaster as the train doesn’t have to get back to full speed, just 100mph for the tunnel, and you could even pick up some passengers at Calais-Frethun if you do the attachment in the platform.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2024 ==

and a reliance on both portions actually arriving somewhere close to the right time..... yes right.

I know we love to be cynics but plenty of services manage to do this just fine, including high speed trains. There’s no operational reason a channel tunnel service couldn’t attach and detach

 

[TheGrew]

Another thought I have had more recently (perhaps because I am going to DLP in February) is whether having a carefully timed schedule based around Marne-la-Vallée with good single-stop (and protected) connections to the rest of Europe would work. Just because MLV didn't previously have a juxtaposed UK border control doesn't mean they couldn't be built there where there appears to be plenty of space to do so and turn it into an Old Oak Common style setup. The current problem with Paris is that Gare-du-Nord is a dead-end and whilst Gare-de-Est is next door all the other stations require hopping on the Metro/RER.

 

[cle]

Another thought I have had more recently (perhaps because I am going to DLP in February) is whether having a carefully timed schedule based around Marne-la-Vallée with good single-stop (and protected) connections to the rest of Europe would work. Just because MLV didn't previously have a juxtaposed UK border control doesn't mean they couldn't be built there where there appears to be plenty of space to do so and turn it into an Old Oak Common style setup. The current problem with Paris is that Gare-du-Nord is a dead-end and whilst Gare-de-Est is next door all the other stations require hopping on the Metro/RER.

I agree that it's a good place for it - it has platforms which could be used for splitting / joining, or customs stuff. Or changing onto starting services. Only 1-2tph call although they can be quite flighted.

And the Disney / railhead demand would be covered. Could see 2 waves which split/join to various places of similar ish distances; Bordeaux and Geneva. Marseille and Basel/Zurich.

 

[Wolfie]

I agree that it's a good place for it - it has platforms which could be used for splitting / joining, or customs stuff. Or changing onto starting services. Only 1-2tph call although they can be quite flighted.

And the Disney / railhead demand would be covered. Could see 2 waves which split/join to various places of similar ish distances; Bordeaux and Geneva. Marseille and Basel/Zurich.

My only observation is that if you go down that road it would probably be beneficial to use somewhere that is a destination in its own right. I can tell you, from personal knowledge, that Border Force will absolutely not be keen!

 

[TheGrew]

My only observation is that if you go down that road it would probably be beneficial to use somewhere that is a destination in its own right. I can tell you, from personal knowledge, that Border Force will absolutely not be keen!

I would argue that DLP is a destination in its own right. I also imagine that for some Parisians on that side of town that starting their RER journey there rather than in the centre would be quicker. I appreciate though this is mainly leisure rather than business travel.

 

[StephenHunter]

I would argue that DLP is a destination in its own right. I also imagine that for some Parisians on that side of town that starting their RER journey there rather than in the centre would be quicker. I appreciate though this is mainly leisure rather than business travel.

Most-visited theme park in Europe and has recently been expanded, with the Marvel Avengers Campus among other things.

 

[renegademaster]

Then it could also be performed before departure, just as Ryanair currently do. Absolutely nothing stops Eurostar or anyone else from checking UK ETA data before departure.

That's what's always confused me about Eurostar, it's fine letting airlines screen people before coming onto flights ,but has to station border force abroad rather than letting local rent-a-goons do it

 

[StephenHunter]

That's what's always confused me about Eurostar, it's fine letting airlines screen people before coming onto flights ,but has to station border force abroad rather than letting local rent-a-goons do it

There is local passport control at those airports too in most cases.

 

[RT4038]

That's what's always confused me about Eurostar, it's fine letting airlines screen people before coming onto flights ,but has to station border force abroad rather than letting local rent-a-goons do it

The quid pro quo being immediate departure from St Pancras on arrival, instead of having to queue through passport control.

I am sure E* could have done airline style check in and had passport control at St Pancras. But the flip side of that would be arranging for Schengen passport control at each of the continental Europe stations, for outbound trains, and the delays getting through them.

I think I prefer the present system, and can see no end advantage in adopting the model of the airlines.

 

[TheWierdOne]

New article from the Financial Times on HS1’s potential expansion plans

The owner of London’s St Pancras station has laid out plans to more than double the passenger capacity of the UK’s only international train terminal, taking advantage of booming demand for high speed rail travel.

Robert Sinclair, chief executive of HS1, which owns the station and the high-speed rail track running to the Channel Tunnel, said a study had found space for international passenger numbers to increase from the current capacity of 1,800 an hour to nearly 5,000

 

[TheGrew]

That's certainly and interesting article with some more detail:

He said that passenger numbers could grow to about 2,400 an hour in the next three to four years through changes including additional security lanes and staff. In the longer term, Sinclair said parts of St Pancras’s “international zone” would need to be redesigned for passenger numbers to approach 5,000 an hour. This would include changing the layout of security and immigration, and expanding the departure lounge by 50 per cent. Many passengers would also wait on trains rather than in departure areas to free up space.

I also really like this quote, though how to sort it would be interesting:

“We want a ‘turn up and go’ arrangement. Not turn up two hours beforehand, get through security and wait in the departure lounge. This is a train station, not an airport,” he said.

Though really I don't see how you could reduce it to much less than 45 minutes. If you assume boarding takes 15 minutes I can't see getting through passport & security checks taking less than 30.

 

[LLivery]

Sounds promising

That's certainly and interesting article with some more detail:

I also really like this quote, though how to sort it would be interesting:

Though really I don't see how you could reduce it to much less than 45 minutes. If you assume boarding takes 15 minutes I can't see getting through passport & security checks taking less than 30.

It's never taken me long at all to get through security. And now there will be a redesign for more lanes and space throughout the process + waiting onboard, rather than just the lounge, I can see it being pretty quick.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Sounds promising



It's never taken me long at all to get through security. And now there will be a redesign for more lanes and space throughout the process + waiting onboard, rather than just the lounge, I can see it being pretty quick.

Given that the sterile area at St Pancras has three platform islands, they could probably make an arrangement where an island is solely for outbound or inbound passengers, especially given that trains are flighted through the tunnel.

In practice that would mean two to four trains arriving in quick succession to the same platform islands, unloading and being prepared, and then once some barriers or gates have been adjusted, both trains are opened to board passengers on the next outbound departures. Meanwhile as those trains are boarding, another 2-4 of trains arrives on the other islands and unload, and passengers are kept separate by movable barriers, watched over by some suitably muscly and intimidating individuals.

 

[zwk500]

Though really I don't see how you could reduce it to much less than 45 minutes. If you assume boarding takes 15 minutes I can't see getting through passport & security checks taking less than 30.

In my experience the main queue is for the passport checks, and the security scan is rarely the bottleneck. I've occassionally seen Security been unable to let people through while the passport queue dies down. The answer to the passport issue is more desks, particularly more auto desks (as they don't require as much staff resources).

 

[StephenHunter]

In my experience the main queue is for the passport checks, and the security scan is rarely the bottleneck. I've occassionally seen Security been unable to let people through while the passport queue dies down. The answer to the passport issue is more desks, particularly more auto desks (as they don't require as much staff resources).

Allow people to go up to the platform earlier was one suggestion.

 

[zwk500]

Allow people to go up to the platform earlier was one suggestion.

The departure lounge is cramped to be sure, but that never seemed to be a constraint on the passport processing capacity. I have only observational anecdotes, not data, to back it up though.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I keep repeating it, but the capacity issues at St Pancras can be pretty easily solved. Let me try and explain it in a concise way:

Arrival into St Pancras: passengers move forwards to the end of the platform, before turning left along a corridor which leads them to (what I believe) to be some sort of luggage collection point today. They enter the station, go through customs controls and then exit through these doors. It doesn't require a large amount of space, and frees up the undercroft to be used solely for departures. This space is more than enough to be used as an arrivals corridor, and if UKBF need more space, they could probably be given part of the area to the left of the picture.




St Pancras Departures: this needs more work, but starting with this picture, you can see where I would place the new entry to Eurostar departures. This area would also have the French entry controls and Eurostar security checks. If needed, the controls could be staggered, so you'd have two or three rows of desks as required.



This picture below would be part of a massively bigger departure lounge. Business Premier customers would still be able to access from Pancras Road with direct access into an expanded lounge, but otherwise it would be closed off.



With the new departures lounge taking up the entire undercroft, including the former arrivals area, this would be a massive increase in capacity for departures. But that's not all...



This entire area would now form part of an expanded departures lounge, with the former arrivals escalators now being transformed into two way escalators. The walkway on the left would also be closed off and added to the departures lounge, giving even more space at platform level. The only caveat is that passengers would have to go downstairs and then back upstairs to access their trains as to maintain separation between departing and arriving passengers. This should massively increase the overall capacity, especially when combined with the Schengen EES and e-gates to speed things up further.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2024 ==

edit: thinking a bit more, it would be possible to avoid the "downstairs to go back upstairs" part if the walkway on the left was converted to a departures area. The arrivals corridor only needs to be a relatively narrow one from the platforms to the customs declaration corridor, which actually helps when identifying passengers who might be selected for control.

The real issue, IMO, is finding a way to clear platforms quickly on arrival and to reopen them for departures. I'll defer to people in the know here: would it be possible to turn the train around in 15 minutes from arrival to departure?

 

[Trainbike46]

In my experience the main queue is for the passport checks, and the security scan is rarely the bottleneck. I've occassionally seen Security been unable to let people through while the passport queue dies down. The answer to the passport issue is more desks, particularly more auto desks (as they don't require as much staff resources).

Usually this is true, but last time I used it (december 18th), after you cleared the security screening you could walk right up to the border officials, no further queueing needed.

Since the physical border arrangement have changed, which was sometime this year, there is a lot more French border official booths, as well as the return of French ePassport gates, and border queueing has been pretty minimal since then. Which makes sense, because border capacity was increased, but security capacity stayed the same

 

[Snow1964]

New article from the Financial Times on HS1’s potential expansion plans

The outline tender is now available

Project Requirement The end output of Project can be described as: An International Zone operation capable of handling and processing up to 5,000 passengers in a rolling 60-minute period and;
An International Zone that has the appropriate facilities and operating model to accommodate at least one new international operator.
In providing a RIBA2 design and operational concept that will achieve this output bidders are asked to focus on: The spatial, architectural and other design elements including:
Overall capacity provision;
Improved passenger flows;
Access and egress;
Historic Building impact;
Fire and evacuation safety;
Station security design standards (SIDOS);
Maintenance;
Location, size and potential rationalisation of station facilities (Toilets, Operator facilities)

Total Quantity or Scope​

HS1 Ltd has the 30-year concession to own, operate and maintain High Speed 1 (HS1), the UK’s only high-speed railway, as well as the stations along the route: St Pancras International, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International and Ashford International. International rail services are currently provided by Eurostar who have expressed an aspiration to grow their passenger volumes from 19m today to 30m by 2030 across their network.
To support these growth aspirations, HS1 has commissioned an initial feasibility study to explore
a) the likely future passenger numbers that will need to be accommodated in the international part of St Pancras station and
b) the required spatial and operational changes that will be necessary to unlock the required capacity. This initial work has identified that expansion is feasible.
HS1 is now ready to progress to design and operational concept feasibility stage (RIBA2) to design, deliver and operationalise a reconfigured ground floor operation of the International Zone delivering a significant uplift in passenger capacity that meets forecast requirements until at least 2035 and potentially 2040;

St Pancras Enhancement Project RIBA 2 Design and Operational Concept Feasibility Study [PIN]

HS1 Ltd has the 30-year concession to own, operate and maintain High Speed 1 (HS1), the UK’s only hi... A Utilities Periodic Indicative Notice by HS1.

bidstats.uk

 

[Cloud Strife]

The outline tender is now available

I've had a look, and I'm seriously contemplating bidding on this. Having said that, the "ground floor operation of the International Zone" apears to suggest that they've ruled out using the platform level areas, which is a pity.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Jon Worth is starting a project to examine the feasibility of running new services through the Tunnel.

#CrossChannelRail March-April 2025 - #CrossBorderRail

The first project for 2025 takes the #CrossBorderRail model, and will apply it to another international rail problem – Channel Tunnel through trains. Since the tunnel opened in the early 1990s there has always been the hope that there will be more direct high speed trains connecting the UK with […]

crossborderrail.trainsforeurope.eu

The first project for 2025 takes the #CrossBorderRail model, and will apply it to another international rail problem – Channel Tunnel through trains.


Since the tunnel opened in the early 1990s there has always been the hope that there will be more direct high speed trains connecting the UK with additional destinations in continental Europe, beyond the current services to Paris, Bruxelles and the limited service to Amsterdam.


Summertime services to southern France, wintertime trains to the Alps, and trains to Disneyland Paris have come and gone, and Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais have lost international trains since the COVID pandemic, and Stratford has never even been served. Meanwhile prices for Eurostar tickets have risen, and a whole bunch of startups are proposing to enter the market.


#CrossChannelRail is motivated by the reactions to this long blog post from January 2024 about the Channel Tunnel – I am now turning this into a research project.

How will the project work?​

Between Monday 17th March and Friday 4th April 2025, I, Jon Worth will conduct a tour of all of the sites of interest for future Channel Tunnel through trains. This will be done predominantly by train, but I will also take a folding bicycle with me to reach the places public transport cannot take me, and take a drone with me for aerial photographs. I will explore four sorts of things en route.


Firstly I will go to all the stations from which Channel Tunnel through trains could depart – this includes existing, former and possible future stations.


Secondly I will visit all of the operators who either operate trains or infrastructure currently, or have plans to do so in the future.


Third I will examine infrastructure relevant to future tunnel operations – including maintenance facilities and crucial junctions on the rail network.


Fourth I will take all of the types of trains that are either already approved for Channel Tunnel through operations, or could be in future.


Throughout the project there will be public meetings, meetings with operators, and off the record conversations with contacts in the rail industry. If you would like to meet me at some point during the project or help me organise something, please contact me.

 

[Frothy]

Article in the Telegraph yesterday covering Virgin's proposals to launch cross-Channel services.

Branson lines up £500m train order to smash Eurostar monopoly | Virgin Group in race to purchase high-speed models ahead of rival

Key points:

• Virgin aiming to place a £500m+ order for new rolling stock as early as the first half of this year.
• The order would be for 12 ("a dozen") train sets
• Alstom, Siemens, Hitachi and Talgo are all in the running for this contract.
• Operation would commence in 2029 (compare with recent assertions from Getlink that it takes 5 years to market)
• This all hinges on ORR giving a favourable verdict on Virgin using Temple Mills depot - Virgin are assuming there will be space for them, but not both them and Evolyn.

 

[SeanG]

Without being about to read the article behind a paywall...

Are there any proposed destinations for these services? Would they mirror the current (blue) Eurostar services or go elsewhere?

 

[fandroid]

Without being about to read the article behind a paywall...

Are there any proposed destinations for these services? Would they mirror the current (blue) Eurostar services or go elsewhere

It doesn't look as if Virgin have released any destination proposals yet.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Article in the Telegraph yesterday covering Virgin's proposals to launch cross-Channel services.

Branson lines up £500m train order to smash Eurostar monopoly | Virgin Group in race to purchase high-speed models ahead of rival

Key points:

• Virgin aiming to place a £500m+ order for new rolling stock as early as the first half of this year.
• The order would be for 12 ("a dozen") train sets
• Alstom, Siemens, Hitachi and Talgo are all in the running for this contract.
• Operation would commence in 2029 (compare with recent assertions from Getlink that it takes 5 years to market)
• This all hinges on ORR giving a favourable verdict on Virgin using Temple Mills depot - Virgin are assuming there will be space for them, but not both them and Evolyn.

This is turning into an interesting tussle, I would imagine Eurostar is going to have a hard time convincing the ORR that there isn’t depot space given they are still running fewer services than before the pandemic, and have moved their seasonal Marseille and Bourg-Saint-Maurice trains to Brussels and Lille respectively.

Interesting that Hitachi and Talgo are in the running, any ideas on what model of train they would be offering for a cross channel service? A dozen train sets seems to suggest a fairly comprehensive service from the off, and I would assume given demand the destinations will be established routes like Paris, Brussels and the Netherlands, although if I were a betting man I would put a flutter on Virgin trying something like Geneva.

The 2029 start date no doubt informed by lead times on rolling stock, but also probably HS1’s proposed revamp at St Pancras to allow more space for security, immigration and customs.

 

[Trainbike46]

• This all hinges on ORR giving a favourable verdict on Virgin using Temple Mills depot - Virgin are assuming there will be space for them, but not both them and Evolyn.

This last bit seems kind of key, because it implies someone will have to decide whether Virgin or Evolyn gets the space at the depot. I don't think that decision should be down to Eurostar, so maybe it is good that the regulator is involved

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting that Hitachi and Talgo are in the running, any ideas on what model of train they would be offering for a cross channel service? A dozen train sets seems to suggest a fairly comprehensive service from the off, and I would assume given demand the destinations will be established routes like Paris, Brussels and the Netherlands, although if I were a betting man I would put a flutter on Virgin trying something like Geneva.

Geneva seems a good bet.

I also wouldn't rule out a small part of the fleet doing some holiday specials (in conjunction with Virgin airlines, and/or Virgin cruises), possibly two or three trains a week to a cruise port like Barcelona, Trieste, or Civitavecchia etc.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This is turning into an interesting tussle, I would imagine Eurostar is going to have a hard time convincing the ORR that there isn’t depot space given they are still running fewer services than before the pandemic

I wonder if Eurostar might try to claim that as they are running fewer services they have more trains parked in the depot thus reducing the number of available roads...?