Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Cloud Strife]

Removing access to arrival customs at the UK end would definitely not be an improvement

Arrival customs is really not a big deal, you just place a red phone near the exit with instructions to use it if you want to make a declaration, where you get instructions to proceed landside to a certain place to complete the declaration. It's a system that is used in airports when customs officers aren't available or there isn't the space for a red lane. While it's not clear how the redevelopment will look, the general idea is that you can save a lot of space by simply having the phone present. If someone does phone, either someone from Border Force can attend, or you can direct them to elsewhere in the station by verbally giving them permission to proceed through the green channel.

I don't know how it is now, but in Aberdeen Airport, the standard process was to call customs and inform them that you wanted to make a declaration, and they would inform you to go through the green channel and head to their (landside) office.

Also, there are existing customs facilities on Platforms 6 and 7 that could be altered.

It shouldn't be much of a problem there, because the Swiss exit Schengen checks can use the existing Swiss customs infrastructure, while the old French passport control infrastructure is still intact and could be repurposed by UK Border Force. France barely carries out customs controls on entry from Switzerland as it is, so they could easily share the Swiss customs infrastructure if needs be.

 

[Snow1964]

There seems to be a number of local reports (currently can only find links in French) that the equivalent of MPs in Canton of Vaud have just voted on a massive rail improvement plan (mainly to do with freight), but are also hoping for direct Geneva-London trains.

If I can find a link in English, will add it later
In meantime a link with a paywall (pending anything better)

Geneva to London direct rail link gets more backing from Switzerland

It takes at least seven hours to travel from Geneva to London (and vice versa) by train. But a push for a quicker solution is underway in Switzerland.

www.thelocal.ch

 

[TheWierdOne]

There seems to be a number of local reports (currently can only find links in French) that the equivalent of MPs in Canton of Vaud have just voted on a massive rail improvement plan (mainly to do with freight), but are also hoping for direct Geneva-London trains.

If I can find a link in English, will add it later
In meantime a link with a paywall (pending anything better)

Geneva to London direct rail link gets more backing from Switzerland

It takes at least seven hours to travel from Geneva to London (and vice versa) by train. But a push for a quicker solution is underway in Switzerland.

www.thelocal.ch

Liaison ferroviaire entre Londres et la Suisse romande | État de Vaud

Actualité de l'Etat de Vaud

www.vd.ch

This is in French but I’ve translated the gist of it. Essentially a member of the Cantonal legislature submitted a motion that was supported by the members, calling for a London - Geneva - Lausanne service. From what I can make out the motion requests CFF/SBB and the federal government to investigate the feasibility of such a service.

The motion is very pragmatically Swiss and acknowledged the UK requirement for juxtaposed controls, and also suggestd that TGV Lyria could create a service between Lausanne and Lille-Europe. Whether that is an alternative option or an interim is unclear.

 

[30907]

From what I can make out the motion requests CFF/SBB and the federal government to investigate the feasibility of such a service.

Interesting. Would this be a response to the proposal way upthread (which ISTR had some sort of SBB support) for a service to/from Basel?

The motion is very pragmatically Swiss and acknowledged the UK requirement for juxtaposed controls, and also suggestd that TGV Lyria could create a service between Lausanne and Lille-Europe. Whether that is an alternative option or an interim is unclear.

It is interesting that Lille-Geneve has hardly ever (not at all?) featured as a TGV route in the 30 years since the LGV Interconnexion opened.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Interesting. Would this be a response to the proposal way upthread (which ISTR had some sort of SBB support) for a service to/from Basel?

It is interesting that Lille-Geneve has hardly ever (not at all?) featured as a TGV route in the 30 years since the LGV Interconnexion opened.

A Lille to Geneva service ran for a couple of years in the 2000s.

 

[Snow1964]

The motion is very pragmatically Swiss and acknowledged the UK requirement for juxtaposed controls, and also suggestd that TGV Lyria could create a service between Lausanne and Lille-Europe. Whether that is an alternative option or an interim is unclear.

Lausanne is in the Canton of Vaud, and some TGVs definitely work to Lausanne via Geneva. From memory there are couple of (maybe 3) long sidings in the carriage depot just east of Lausanne that can take 400m trains.
I might be wrong but I don't think double sets (400m long) can be serviced in Geneva's carriage depot

I think Lausanne has 7 through platforms (1, 3-8), line 2 is a through freight line. There is also an eighth platform which is a bay. Not sure if you could do passport checks there (the higher numbered platforms are widenings). Geneva (Cornavin) is also an 8 platform station

 

[TheWierdOne]

Interesting. Would this be a response to the proposal way upthread (which ISTR had some sort of SBB support) for a service to/from Basel?

It is interesting that Lille-Geneve has hardly ever (not at all?) featured as a TGV route in the 30 years since the LGV Interconnexion opened.

I assume they’re trying to capitalise on SBB’s apparent enthusiasm for a London service to try and get Geneva and Lausanne connected, whether alongside or in opposition to Basel I don’t know. The journey time between London and Geneva Cornavin would only be about ten-twenty minutes longer than London-Basel. At that point I would assume it would boil down to which could provide higher value passengers, to which I assume Basel, being closer to Zurich and Bern, would be better placed to provide year round. Geneva would certainly cater to ski traffic in France and West Switzerland, but I don’t know that it would have the same potential for year-round financial traffic.

I think Lausanne has 7 through platforms (1, 3-8), line 2 is a through freight line. There is also an eighth platform which is a bay. Not sure if you could do passport checks there (the higher numbered platforms are widenings). Geneva (Cornavin) is also an 8 platform station

Of course what Geneva does have in its favour is a fairly intact border and customs facility for international traffic. I don’t know if Zurich Hbf’s full customs and immigration facilities have remained intact since Switzerland entered Schengen, although they do still do spot checks occasionally

 

[signed]

That would probably entail SNCF dealing with the stock as SBB doesn't have anything with TVM 430 on their stock, or anything over 250km/h that isn't Lyria.

So under Lyria or Eurostar it might be. Or a joint-venture with DB with the Velaro D?

 

[TheWierdOne]

That would probably entail SNCF dealing with the stock as SBB doesn't have anything with TVM 430 on their stock, or anything over 250km/h that isn't Lyria.

So under Lyria or Eurostar it might be. Or a joint-venture with DB with the Velaro D?

Any news on when HS1 and LGV Nord will ditch TVM for ETCS? I seem to recall HS1 saying they won’t move until LGV Nord is switched, which is fair enough given it’s the only line they connect to other than British colour signalling lines

 

[signed]

Any news on when HS1 and LGV Nord will ditch TVM for ETCS?

2029-33 for LGV Nord

'Three Capitals' HSL triangle ETCS Fitment

It cropped up on the Eurostar e300 thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/eurostar-e300-replacements.263567/page-6#post-7028717) and was suggested to split into a new thread, so here it is - What is the current status of ETCS fitment programmes on the 'three capitals' triangle of LGV...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[ivanhoe]

In spite of the many issues,all highlighted already in this thread, it ultimately requires (1) political will, particularly by UK
(2) A solid Business Plan which could be initially underwritten by Governments.
(3) Choosing destination(s) which will have the possibilities to grow passenger numbers other than the usual enthusiasts such as Interrailers(myself included).

I can't see many destinations that would provide decent Business Cases, other than Frankfurt and Geneva. I do see additional opportunities for using Lille Europe more, for connections to more distant cities.

The Border issue ultimately though is a problem that only 'political will' and technology can overcome.

 

[signed]

The Border issue ultimately though is a problem that only 'political will' and technology can overcome.

Isn't political will just a massive load of cash? Surely if any operator pays enough, UK border officials will come. If we assume the same juxtaposed-controls as today.

And then, if the other side is the initiator then the law allowing some part of a railway station to be UK-territory immigration wise is easy pass.

 

[ivanhoe]

Isn't political will just a massive load of cash? Surely if any operator pays enough, UK border officials will come. If we assume the same juxtaposed-controls as today.

And then, if the other side is the initiator then the law allowing some part of a railway station to be UK-territory immigration wise is easy pass.

I get what you're saying but my point is trying to make these journeys as hassle free as possible. If I was a Business Traveller, Airports can deal with passport issues a lot smoother and I would argue more seamlessly than St Pancras, Gare du Nord or Amsterdam Centraal.Time is also an issue and if you're travelling to Brussels from say Leicester. You're arriving at least 90mins before departure (less so if you're London based). It's down to Politicians to look at how much you could knock off the 90 mins. (I say 90mins to allow for late running of trains). You can understand why the Leicester based Businessman drives to Birmingham Airport, rather than waste 90 mins in St Pancras. Well Researched,Tried and tested technology is urgently needed for the expansion of international rail travel from St Pancras to alleviate Passport Control issues. That takes Government Will and I can't see any of that around.

 

[Bald Rick]

I assume they’re trying to capitalise on SBB’s apparent enthusiasm for a London service to try and get Geneva and Lausanne connected, whether alongside or in opposition to Basel I don’t know. The journey time between London and Geneva Cornavin would only be about ten-twenty minutes longer than London-Basel. At that point I would assume it would boil down to which could provide higher value passengers, to which I assume Basel, being closer to Zurich and Bern, would be better placed to provide year round. Geneva would certainly cater to ski traffic in France and West Switzerland, but I don’t know that it would have the same potential for year-round financial traffic.

Geneva is a bigger market by a factor of 5. Whilst it does have a winter peak for ski season, It has year round traffic - in October last year it had 3 times as many passengers flying as Basle.

 

[FinsburyPark]

There is one thing that makes this difficult. Britian is not in the EU and (more to the point) not in Schengen.

Part of this problem doubles up when we have the juxtaposed border controls which Eurostar/Le Shuttle use.

If a new country or station is earmarked for possible new Eurostar services to London, the questions then become

1) Does the station have the additional platforms, or if not can they be built.

2) Does the station have an area close to the said platforms to accomodate airport security checks, juxtaposed controls and departures lounge also with a check in area not too far away, if not is there space to build it?

Does the local municipal authority, the national goverment, border agency and station operator have the will to set up and run juxtaposed border controls?

I can see a large scale of Eurostar expansion as a possibility (compared to what we have now). On a more realistic level, this may only take place once Britian rejoins the EU and once it joins Schengen. No doubt this could be anywhere from 10 to 20 years away.

 

[43096]

There is one thing that makes this difficult. Britian is not in Europe and (more to the point) not in Schengen.

I assume you mean not in the EU. Britain is very definitely still in Europe!

 

[Austriantrain]

Geneva is a bigger market by a factor of 5. Whilst it does have a winter peak for ski season, It has year round traffic - in October last year it had 3 times as many passengers flying as Basle.

Not a fair comparison, Geneva Airport serves all of Western Switzerland, while the main Airport in the East is Zurich - by far. And Zurich certainly would be a major part of the market for a Basle E* (not that I think either one of them will ever run).

 

[signed]

On a more realistic level, this may only take place once Britian rejoins the EU and once it joins Schengen. No doubt this could be anywhere from 10 to 20 years away.

The UK will never join Schengen, it has never wanted to and will never. We have to navigate with the actual situation.

Theoritically the best solution is a Lille changeover in the UK direction, but is known to be massively unpopular with passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is one thing that makes this difficult. Britian is not in Europe and (more to the point) not in Schengen.

Part of this problem doubles up when we have the juxtaposed border controls which Eurostar/Le Shuttle use.

If a new country or station is earmarked for possible new Eurostar services to London, the questions then become

1) Does the station have the additional platforms, or if not can they be built.

2) Does the station have an area close to the said platforms to accomodate airport security checks, juxtaposed controls and departures lounge also with a check in area not too far away, if not is there space to build it?

Does the local municipal authority, the national goverment, border agency and station operator have the will to set up and run juxtaposed border controls?

I can see a large scale of Eurostar expansion as a possibility (compared to what we have now). On a more realistic level, this may only take place once Britian rejoins the EU and once it joins Schengen. No doubt this could be anywhere from 10 to 20 years away.

Whilst I’ve never heard a good reason as to why the UK shouldn’t join Schengen… if we did it would open up all manner of services, with London becoming the natural end of the line for a whole range of services that currently terminate at Brussels or Lille from the south / east / west, eg Strasbourg, Marseille, Montpellier and the Occitane, Bordeaux, Nice, Lyon, Grenoble, Les Alpes, Köln, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich, Berlin, and dare I say Milan and Barcelona. It would also enable through services from Manchester / Birmingham to Paris, with the London call being at Stratford.

Ah, happy dreams.

Back to the real world with a bump. Geneva Cornavin has the benefit of extant border control facilities for platforms 6 & 7. If for some reason they weren’t suitable (they surely are) then it would not be beyond l’espirit de l’homme to make use of the rather extensive border control faciltiies at Geneva airport, and use the station there (which is probably better for onward travel for most of the likely users in any event).
Albeit I hope the Swiss Border force are more efficient than the last few times I’ve been there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2025 ==

Not a fair comparison, Geneva Airport serves all of Western Switzerland, while the main Airport in the East is Zurich - by far. And Zurich certainly would be a major part of the market for a Basle E* (not that I think either one of them will ever run).

But the Geneva market is about 50% larger than Zurich, and the journey time from Zurich changing at Basle would be stretching things.

It will be Geneva, if it happens.

 

[signed]

If for some reason they weren’t suitable (they surely are)

They absolutely aren't for a permanent posting

The Geneva custom is very narrow corridor suited for the sporadic controls of nowadays, not for a full permanent control. I wonder how it worked before Schengen.

+ where do you put the french controls as the UK mandates a sealed system?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Ah, happy dreams.

Back to the real world with a bump. Geneva Cornavin has the benefit of extant border control facilities for platforms 6 & 7. If for some reason they weren’t suitable (they surely are) then it would not be beyond l’espirit de l’homme to make use of the rather extensive border control faciltiies at Geneva airport, and use the station there (which is probably better for onward travel for most of the likely users in any event).

Geneva Airport station only has two island platforms though and would require reversal. The main station would seem the best bet - the last time I was there the customs / border facilities were still intact if little used. At Basle the old customs hall is now a restaurant.

 

[Wolfie]

There is one thing that makes this difficult. Britian is not in Europe and (more to the point) not in Schengen.

Part of this problem doubles up when we have the juxtaposed border controls which Eurostar/Le Shuttle use.

If a new country or station is earmarked for possible new Eurostar services to London, the questions then become

1) Does the station have the additional platforms, or if not can they be built.

2) Does the station have an area close to the said platforms to accomodate airport security checks, juxtaposed controls and departures lounge also with a check in area not too far away, if not is there space to build it?

Does the local municipal authority, the national goverment, border agency and station operator have the will to set up and run juxtaposed border controls?

I can see a large scale of Eurostar expansion as a possibility (compared to what we have now). On a more realistic level, this may only take place once Britian rejoins the EU and once it joins Schengen. No doubt this could be anywhere from 10 to 20 years away.

Just for clarity your first paragraph should refer to the EU and EFTA. The UK is definitely part of the continent of Europe!

 

[rvdborgt]

Back to the real world with a bump. Geneva Cornavin has the benefit of extant border control facilities for platforms 6 & 7.

That will all disappear with the rebuild of the Geneva station.

 

[BahrainLad]

What I don’t understand is why, with the existing layout of St Pancras, certain arriving services - ie those inbound from places without juxtaposed controls - couldn’t be funneled to do passport control in London.
The airlines have to collect advance passenger information, submit it to the UK border in advance, match name and photo ID to ticket when boarding and as a result there are very few ‘unwanted’ arrivals at UK airports. Indeed, the airlines suffer hefty fines if they bring in these passengers and they would be reluctant to take the risk if the system could be easily played.
Surely this could be something Eurostar &c could explore? You’d still need an outbound check from Schengen and a security check, but that could be done with local staff and wouldn’t involve posting UKBA staff all around Europe. Eurostar already collect APIS!

 

[Krokodil]

The UK will never join Schengen, it has never wanted to and will never. We have to navigate with the actual situation.

At the moment it seems to be difficult enough keeping existing members in Schengen. I'm quite used to delays when entering Germany from all directions now while the police sweep the train.

 

[Bald Rick]

The airlines have to collect advance passenger information, submit it to the UK border in advance, match name and photo ID to ticket when boarding and as a result there are very few ‘unwanted’ arrivals at UK airports. Indeed, the airlines suffer hefty fines if they bring in these passengers and they would be reluctant to take the risk if the system could be easily played.

The usual reason given is that it is rather easier to alight from a Eurostar in the UK before you get to St Pancras than it is to alight an A320 in UK airspace before you get to an airport. And indeed there were examples of the former happening in the early days.

 

[signed]

What I don’t understand is why, with the existing layout of St Pancras, certain arriving services - ie those inbound from places without juxtaposed controls - couldn’t be funneled to do passport control in London.

Outside of the security aspect, it would basically remove any advantage a E* service has, the main selling point being that you are out in minutes of the station.

This is why US Preclearance is also quite popular, it is MUCH easier and faster to clear US Preclearance in Dublin than at New York where you can take hours to clear out.

 

[Krokodil]

than it is to alight an A320 in UK airspace

Top tip for would-be parachutists: use a Boeing, you're more likely to be able to get a door open!

 

[BahrainLad]

The usual reason given is that it is rather easier to alight from a Eurostar in the UK before you get to St Pancras than it is to alight an A320 in UK airspace before you get to an airport. And indeed there were examples of the former happening in the early days.

But I suppose that’s the point, APIS should mean that every passenger on the train has had at least some degree of clearance otherwise they’d never be able to board in the first place. EITAS or whatever our equivalent will be could add another layer.
Doors can be locked. Trains don’t trundle through Kent like they used to. &c.

Outside of the security aspect, it would basically remove any advantage a E* service has, the main selling point being that you are out in minutes of the station.

This is why US Preclearance is also quite popular, it is MUCH easier and faster to clear US Preclearance in Dublin than at New York where you can take hours to clear out.

Is that really the main selling point? I would have thought it’s city centre to city centre without interruption compared to flying. A Geneva London direct rail service could be ~6 hours so a 15 minute wait on arrival isn’t very long cf an arrival from Paris.

Incidentally, it’s funny we’re discussing Geneva as GVA is the only airport where I’ve come extremely close to missing a flight on more than one occasion due to the absolute ****show that is (was?) their outbound immigration setup.

I suppose my overall point is that for airports a physical immigration check on arrival *should* be almost cursory as it’s the last step in a very long chain that tries to ensure passengers who won’t be able to enter the country never even get on board the aircraft. That’s why as a Global Entry holder in the US I can just walk through immigration without stopping. US CBP have an extremely good idea of who is arriving because the airlines tell them well in advance.

I would have thought with a bit of work inbound train travel to the UK (which has the advantage of always coming from the EU) could be the same.

 

[Bald Rick]

Doors can be locked. Trains don’t trundle through Kent like they used to. &c.

Trains can be stopped, and doors opened, mid journey. As has happened with eurostar on the high speed line.