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European Defence spending and strategy

Giugiaro

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I know this is a bit of a touchy subject to talk about on a forum, but I wanted to check other people's views on how defence expenditure should be allocated.
LISBON, Jan 27 (Reuters) - NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte urged member states of the alliance on Monday to step up defence spending beyond their common goal of 2% of national output set a decade ago, saying this was now too low because of new challenges.
Rutte spoke in Lisbon alongside Portuguese Prime Minister Luis Montenegro, who reiterated his country's pledge to meet the 2% goal by 2029. In 2023, Portugal spent 1.5% of its gross domestic product (GDP) on its NATO commitments.
Today I read the news of the Portuguese Prime Minister, Luís Montenegro, promising to Mark Rutte that Portugal would try to anticipate its 2029 goal of meeting the 2% GDP expenditure on defence.
(The fact we struggle to even get to 1,5% and lie about our real expenditure is already very concerning)

Portugal is equipped with aging F-16s and there's already pressure from all sides to upgrade our fighter fleet, which would easily increase the expenditure to the 2% or above target.
But the aircraft touted as the replacement is the F-35, which is met with plenty of criticism, particularly that it is a very expensive American-made product that, technically, the US could disable at will if it so desired.

So the question is: Going ahead with increasing our expenditure on defence, should we instead focus on European solutions over whatever the US already has available or is developing?
Should Portugal, for instance, opt to enter the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) or the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) and skip straight to a European sixth-generation fighter, instead of spending on a ready-made fifth-generation American fighter?
 
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edwin_m

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Interesting thought. But I wonder if, like Storm Shadow and other things, the FCAS or GCAP actually contains enough American content that they could veto its use if they wanted to.
 

DarloRich

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The UK meet the 3% of GDP NATO contribution required don't we?

If so all other members should do the same. NATO is what keeps us safe. We might have taken that for granted for decades but we have to be serious now.
 

JamesT

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The UK meet the 3% of GDP NATO contribution required don't we?

If so all other members should do the same. NATO is what keeps us safe. We might have taken that for granted for decades but we have to be serious now.
No, we haven't spent 3% of GDP for 30 years. We have managed to keep above the old 2% target, which most of Europe hasn't. I believe the government has expressed an aspiration to get to 3%, but no timescale has been provided.
 

DarloRich

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No, we haven't spent 3% of GDP for 30 years. We have managed to keep above the old 2% target, which most of Europe hasn't. I believe the government has expressed an aspiration to get to 3%, but no timescale has been provided.
thanks -I clearly hadn't paid enough attention to the press statements!
 

Magdalia

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I have only recently started to think seriously about this. That was prompted by hearing Paul Mason on the radio. He is a left wing economist who advised Corbyn and McDonnell, and had been off my radar for quite a while.

Mason was advocating increased defence spending from an economic perspective, rearmament has a good track record for delivering economic growth. Arms manufacture can be high wage high productivity growth, and is often located in places that would benefit a lot from that. Mason mentioned Barrow in Furness, and now I have an Elvis Costello Shipbuilding earworm.

But the things I would be investing in are drones, protecting undersea cables and cybersecurity, not big boys toys like planes and warships.

I think there is a defence review as part of the UK government's full spending review.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Trump seems to want 5% of GDP on defence to keep his interest in NATO, as well as the US taking Greenland for "strategic" reasons.
The rest of the economy would buckle under that sort of pressure.
 

edwin_m

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Arms manufacture can be high wage high productivity growth, and is often located in places that would benefit a lot from that.
Equally well the spending might go overseas, particularly to the US ironically enough. If the sole objective was stimulating the economy (which it isn't), there would be better ways of spending the same money.

I think among Trump's outpourings there was a mention of nuclear powers UK and France spending more than others. This presumably comes from some thinking that the amount spent on the deterrent does not count towards the conventional defence capability - interesting discussion whether its use would be threatened in the event of an incursion into say Finland or Estonia.
 

ainsworth74

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Equally well the spending might go overseas, particularly to the US ironically enough. If the sole objective was stimulating the economy (which it isn't), there would be better ways of spending the same money.
Some of certainly will but then that's the nature of modern logistics and production techniques isn't it? Very few, if any, complex product is entirely "home grown" anymore. Even in the US they import all sorts of knick-knacks and do-dads for all sorts of things by military and civilian (this of course being one of the reasons Trumps vaunted tariffs are likely to be a disaster for the US if they go ahead).

Taking the F-35 mentioned above, for instance, whilst the F-35 is not a UK built jet we are still responsible for around 15% of what goes into each F-35 from the ejection seat, life support, bits of the rear fuselage, electronics and all sorts. So every F-35 purchased by anyone makes a not insubstantial contribution to the UK. The Eurofighter Typhoon whilst having, I believe, a higher UK content (including final assembly in the UK) is still chock full of kit from all over the world. It's just the way of the world. Type 26, has (I believe) German diesel generators, it has a Danish navigation radar, and a US vertical launch system for some of its missiles.

Whilst I think it would be unwise to justify increased defence spending just on economic grounds I don't buy that it wouldn't have a significant positive economic impact on the UK even if reasonable chunks of the money spent also went abroad.

So the question is: Going ahead with increasing our expenditure on defence, should we instead focus on European solutions over whatever the US already has available or is developing?
I think the thing that has been shown by Trump II is that Trump I and the bullying of erstwhile allies was not a one off aberration never to be repeated. But instead potentially a pattern.

I reckon the only logical response that Europe can make is to firstly increase the amount we spend on our defence on which, to be fair, significant progress has been made. We've gone from just six NATO countries meeting the 2% commitment in 2021 to twenty-three countries in 2024 (out of thirty-two). Lots of work still to be done by those who are still below 2% and the reality is that many of those that have hit 2% now need to hit 3% (including us!). But then whilst we're all doing more to strengthen our defences in the face of an aggressively revanchist Russia and a disinterested (indeed downright hostile US) the way we spend that money probably does need to focussed on growing European production capabilities and industry.

I don't think it's possible (nor sensible) to decouple European defence procurement entirely from the United States. But it seems clear to me that attempting to do as much as we can to "buy European" has got to be the way to go. In that we are relatively lucky that, whilst it's atrophied to a tremendous degree, there is still just about the the remains (on a continent wide basis) of an industrial capability of building basically anything required.

That being said considering how pathetically slow the ramp-up to support Ukraine has been I'm not holding out all that much hope. I think the EU finally hit it's million artillery shell delivery target for Ukraine in November 2024 having originally supposed to have achieved it in March 2024. We'll ignore that the war had been raging since March 2022 and two full years later it still was a struggle to reach a million shells.

Should Portugal, for instance, opt to enter the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) or the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) and skip straight to a European sixth-generation fighter, instead of spending on a ready-made fifth-generation American fighter?
I reckon Portugal probably has time to play with when it comes to replacing it's fighter fleet. Portugal isn't exactly a front-line combatant and the F-16s it has, whilst old, have been modernised and so can still present a potent threat in the hands of a well trained pilot (indeed I'd focus more on how much money Portugal spends on training for its pilots, how much time do they get flying? How much simulator time? Etc etc). So they can probably safely skip straight to whatever comes next after the current generation of aircraft. If Portugal really did feel pressure to get a new fighter in service and wanted to avoid the F-35 (though I think it would be a sensible buy) then Eurofighter's are probably a decent shout.

Though if I was a NATO planner I'd be asking Portugal to focus more on their navy than their air force. How about a couple of extra submarines or frigates? That's probably a more useful contribution to NATOs defence than an extra couple of dozen modern fighters, most of which will probably be needed to protect Portugal (and Spain)!
 

Giugiaro

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Though if I was a NATO planner I'd be asking Portugal to focus more on their navy than their air force. How about a couple of extra submarines or frigates?

The most recent investment was the NRP D. João II, a helicopter and drone carrier commissioned by Damen Shipyards.
Along with it are six patrol ships by West Sea Shipyard (former Estaleiros Navais de Viana do Castelo) and two replenishment oilers by STM (Savunma Teknolojileri Mühendislik ve Ticaret A.Ş.).

There was a corruption scandal from the acquisition of the two submarines built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH in the 2010s.

All five frigates are from the 1990s, the two corvettes are from the 1970s, and the existing four ocean-faring patrol vessels were bought second-hand in the 2010s.

The maintenance of these vessels is, allegedly, very poor, with 24 million euros worth of non-executed maintenance budget every year.
The lack of maintenance of the ocean patrol vessel NRP Mondego led to four sergeants and nine privates refusing to board on the 11th of March, 2023, failing to follow a Russian warship crossing the Portuguese exclusive economic zone.
 

Yew

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Equally well the spending might go overseas, particularly to the US ironically enough. If the sole objective was stimulating the economy (which it isn't), there would be better ways of spending the same money.
Indeed, defence spending isn't bad for stimulation, particularly if it is spent domestically, but it doesn't compare to building bridges and bypasses.
 

Three-Nine

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Regards Portugal, there are a couple of alternatives to F-35 if they don’t want stealth capability. The Gripen-E, for example (though a common criticism of “Eurocanards” is that they often don’t cost much less, and sometimes more, than the F-35 due to production scale savings among other factors). South Korea also makes a “light fighter” (I forget the exact designation) which Poland is acquiring and which depending on how much you’re prepared to pay can approach a good degree of the capability of a F-16.
 

DarloRich

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Portugal is equipped with aging F-16s and there's already pressure from all sides to upgrade our fighter fleet,
The F16 is still a decent second rank aircraft surely? They are in use in Ukraine. You have to ask what the Portuguese Airforce is there to do as part of NATO and use the aircraft to meet that need surely? Is the key duty not maritime patrol and protection thereof?
 

gg1

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South Korea also makes a “light fighter” (I forget the exact designation) which Poland is acquiring and which depending on how much you’re prepared to pay can approach a good degree of the capability of a F-16.
FA-50, a development of the T-50 advanced trainer, it's roughly half the cost of an F-16.
 

Three-Nine

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That’s the one, thanks!

Regards the F-16s - not all F-16s are created equal. Very simply, as well as the main variants (the original A, the later C) there are various upgrades usually referred to as “Blocks” (Block 15, 30, etc).For example, the F-16s the Saudis have are I think somewhat more modern than the current Block USAF F-16Cs. If Portugal is planning to get another fighter, its F-16s could be a fairly early version thats getting on a bit. It’s worth bearing in mind that the baseline F-16 dates back to the 70s, with a design lineage going back to the late 60s.
 

JamesT

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That’s the one, thanks!

Regards the F-16s - not all F-16s are created equal. Very simply, as well as the main variants (the original A, the later C) there are various upgrades usually referred to as “Blocks” (Block 15, 30, etc).For example, the F-16s the Saudis have are I think somewhat more modern than the current Block USAF F-16Cs. If Portugal is planning to get another fighter, its F-16s could be a fairly early version thats getting on a bit. It’s worth bearing in mind that the baseline F-16 dates back to the 70s, with a design lineage going back to the late 60s.
I believe Portugal have put their ones through the Mid-Life Update so have equivalent to Block 50/52
 

Giugiaro

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You have to ask what the Portuguese Airforce is there to do as part of NATO and use the aircraft to meet that need surely? Is the key duty not maritime patrol and protection thereof?
The Portuguese Air Force participates in foreign NATO missions, namely the Baltic Air Policing, NATO Assurance Measures, and Operation Sea Guardian.
Four F-16 and one P-3 Orion are currently deployed to the Baltic Air Policing.

There are also EU missions for Frontex, ATALANTA (Somalia), and EUTM (Mali, Somalia, and Central African Republic), as well as ONU missions for MINUSMA (Mali), MINUSCA (Central African Republic), and UN Verification Mission (Colombia).

Finally, there are bilateral defence agreements with former Portuguese overseas colonies, under the CCD program.
 

Ediswan

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Do the US sell fully-specified euipment to their allies, or do they follow the Soviet practice of export-models with the same designation, but inferior equipment ?
 

JamesT

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Do the US sell fully-specified euipment to their allies, or do they follow the Soviet practice of export-models with the same designation, but inferior equipment ?
As I understand it, most of the variations in models exported has been due to the customer wanting their own specification of kit to support local industry, rather than the US. Though you could argue the F35 is the inferior equipment, as they won't export the F22 to anyone.
 

Three-Nine

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There was a bit of a kerfuffle over access to the source code for the F-35 for partner nations a little while back, but with the exception of the F-22 as far as I’m aware if the customer wants it they’ll get the “full-fat” US version, substituting whatever they may need for local requirements/equipment. There was an attempt to market a downgraded F-16 with a J79 engine back in the day but no-one wanted it.

Edit: just remembered, it can depend - the US supplied Iraq with F-16s but only supplied AIM-7 Sparrow missiles with them rather than the more advanced AMRAAM. It may depend on how close the ally is and if its likely to cause political issues.
 

AM9

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Indeed, defence spending isn't bad for stimulation, particularly if it is spent domestically, but it doesn't compare to building bridges and bypasses.
Actually, defence is a quite potent export driver. Just as many in the UK see procuring expensive capital defence equipment from the US as a capitulation to the US's global grip on products, there are administrations of smaller (but equally advanced countires) that see the UK and other major European nations as competant suppliers preferable to the US. Major consortia led equipment programmes such as Tornado and Typhoon. What isn't always appreciated is the international contributions to the structure of the prime system being supported by advanced on-board weapons and avionics sub-systems that also reflect the collaborative working of the partner nations. In some ways, this can closely match the interoperability of deplioyed resources within NATO and any other joint campaigns.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There was a bit of a kerfuffle over access to the source code for the F-35 for partner nations a little while back, but with the exception of the F-22 as far as I’m aware if the customer wants it they’ll get the “full-fat” US version, substituting whatever they may need for local requirements/equipment. There was an attempt to market a downgraded F-16 with a J79 engine back in the day but no-one wanted it.

Edit: just remembered, it can depend - the US supplied Iraq with F-16s but only supplied AIM-7 Sparrow missiles with them rather than the more advanced AMRAAM.
That's often the case, - remember not all 'partners' are equal in US eyes, (and with their current government, that can change from week to week).
 
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The Ham

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Whilst Trump's first term comments about NATO did ensure (although the invasion of Ukraine was a significant factor) that more countries meet the target in not sure that it would have the same impact this time around.

Also there's been suggestions that if the US pulls out of NATO that it would result in Europe spending more on non US kit.

There's also the question, given that the US has a lot of presence in the Pacific, been asked by some quarters as to if it's reasonable to count all the US spending as being in the defence of NATO?

Personally I think that's potentially divisive (as much as over playing the need for more spending), however (both do this) it does highlight that it's not always clear-cut as to what the right amount is.

For example how much if a difference is it going to make if Luxembourg isn't spending 2%?

The extra $0.7bn isn't really going to get you a lot of kit, even where Portugal is about double that in shortfall isn't that much.

Now whilst it would be preferable if they were meeting their targets, we also don't want them just buying (say) F16's to let the rust just so they meet their target.
 

Giugiaro

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That's often the case, - remember not all 'partners' are equal in US eyes, (and with their current government, that can change from week to week).

Portugal got a soft embargo on the import of AI acceleration chips by the Biden administration.
It gives the idea that Portugal isn't trustworthy from the point of view of US intelligence and defence, despite being a NATO founding member.

That begs the question: Would the US even be eager to sell the F-35 to Portugal? Or does the country have something akin to Turkey and its acquisition of a Russian-made air defense system?
 
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AM9

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Portugal got a soft embargo on the import of AI acceleration chips by the Biden administration.
It gives the idea that Portugal isn't trustworthy from the point of view of US intelligence and defence, despite being a NATO founding member.

That begs the question: Would the US even be eager to sell the F-35 to Portugal? Or does the country have something akin to Turkey and its acquisition of a Russian-made air defense system?
The US, (and any other arms producing country) will vary what is released to any particular customer based on:
that country's geographical importance in any international defence strategy​
that country's political stance​
the likelihood of leakage of the seller's classified product or its capability to an enemy​
the current administration of the selling country (think of the difference between Trump and previous presidents)​
All of those issues can play with arms trading between NATO members.
 

Gaz67

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Looks like defence review has been kicked down the road again, end of year now. My humble guess is HMG doesn't want to order any more Typhoons to keep line and skills at Warton viable for a few years. Again just my guess work but they are hoping that Turkey will do job for us, latest strongish rumour on this is 20 Typhoon s from Germany to Warton for conversion for Turkish Air Force with 20 new builds following on. Hope there is still an order for RAF but don't see it personally. Anyway important Warton stays open or that's us out of the fast jet game.
 

JonasB

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Portugal is equipped with aging F-16s and there's already pressure from all sides to upgrade our fighter fleet, which would easily increase the expenditure to the 2% or above target.
But the aircraft touted as the replacement is the F-35, which is met with plenty of criticism, particularly that it is a very expensive American-made product that, technically, the US could disable at will if it so desired.

So the question is: Going ahead with increasing our expenditure on defence, should we instead focus on European solutions over whatever the US already has available or is developing?
Should Portugal, for instance, opt to enter the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) or the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) and skip straight to a European sixth-generation fighter, instead of spending on a ready-made fifth-generation American fighter?
I'm not an expert on military matters at all. But given the current attitude from the US it's my opinion that the F35 is the wrong choice. It might be developed together with a couple of European countries, but it is a mostly American plane. But there are European alternatives, like the Gripen (built in Sweden) and the Rafaele (built in France). If the US really turns hostile, we need to make sure we have a European defence industry.

After some problems during WWII, Sweden's strategy during the cold war was to make sure as much military equipment as possible is built within Sweden (which is why there still is a lot of military equipment built in Sweden). And I think it might be a good idea now to have a similar strategy from a European point of view.
 

Randomer

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Do the US sell fully-specified equipment to their allies, or do they follow the Soviet practice of export-models with the same designation, but inferior equipment ?

It's a very mixed bag and dependent on how "reliable" an ally you are judged to be. Especially after post-revolution Iran got a lot of very high end kit to play with including fully functioning models of what was probably the best all round US fighter at the time the F14.

Sometimes things like armour packages for tanks are downgraded e.g. Egyptian M1 Abrams don't have the full capability depleted uranium composite armour package but the ones being built for Australia currently do (the old Australian M1A1's didn't). Other areas like F16 to bring us back to topic have had large upgrades funded by foreign users where they have effectively the most advanced F16's available at the time e.g. the AESA radars the United States Air Force are now retrofitting to its fleet were first developed and fielded for the UAE Block 60's.

As to the original question as a smaller country you have two questions from my point of view:
1) Are you under direct threat e.g. the Baltic States such as Estonia. If so potentially spend money (and frankly your personnel's lives) when you can to make it likely for you to have allies later. To use Estonia as an example they deployed as a proportion of its military more people than we did to Helmand province in Afghanistan integrated with the UK armed forces. The UK armed forces now have an ongoing commitment with troops forward deployed to Estonia. Otherwise spend as much as you can on conventional land based deterrence. See NATO doing the Baltic Air Policing mission allowing the Baltic States to spend more on ground forces.
2) Not under direct threat. Find a niche role e.g. Luxembourg hosts the NATO E3 AWACS force and pays a lot for its maintenance. The obvious thing for Portugal is naval support to NATO operations, potentially in a niche area like counter mine warfare where the US itself doesn't have a huge capability and others e.g. the UK have decreased our ability in the past decade.
 

GusB

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I'm not an expert on military matters at all. But given the current attitude from the US it's my opinion that the F35 is the wrong choice. It might be developed together with a couple of European countries, but it is a mostly American plane. But there are European alternatives, like the Gripen (built in Sweden) and the Rafaele (built in France). If the US really turns hostile, we need to make sure we have a European defence industry.

After some problems during WWII, Sweden's strategy during the cold war was to make sure as much military equipment as possible is built within Sweden (which is why there still is a lot of military equipment built in Sweden). And I think it might be a good idea now to have a similar strategy from a European point of view.
This is a difficult one. Developing military aircraft is an expensive business and a multi-national agreement is no bad thing as long as the goals of the participating countries are aligned. The UK has proved that it's capable of being involved in such arrangements (Jaguar, Tornado and Typhoon), but we also used to be rather good at developing our own aircraft, as well as exporting them around the world.

I'm not comfortable with the US being in charge of a particular project. The F35 and its use by Israel is a contentious issue.

Perhaps this should be a topic for a separate thread, but I'm not all that convinced that NATO has much relevance these days, especially when Tango Man Trump has hinted that action against a fellow NATO member (Denmark) might be on the cards.

U.S. President-elect Donald Trump on Tuesday refused to rule out invading Greenland or Panama when asked if the U.S. could use military force to acquire the Arctic island or the canal in the Central American country.
Asked if he would rule out economic or military coercion to gain control of Greenland and the Panama Canal, Trump said, “I’m not gonna commit to that. No. It might be that you’ll have to do something.”
“I can’t assure you — you’re talking about Panama and Greenland — no, I can’t assure you on either of those two,” Trump said in response to the question at a press conference. “But I can say this: We need them for economic security.”
 

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