French gov issues tender for new night train stock to replace the 50 year old Corail stock

[andersj]

Le Train (A prospective OA in the country's west) has S-107 (Avril) on order

I haven't seen a confirmation of this order from Talgo yet.

 

[nwales58]

I haven't seen a confirmation of this order from Talgo yet.

Indeed. Still a 'development agreement' in the most recent press release on Talgo's site:

https://www.talgo.com/en/le-train-signs-an-agreement-with-talgo-for-the-development-of-a-fleet-of-high-speed-trains

Even if Le Train were ready with everything else, committing financially to an order before Talgo Avril is fully approved in France would be courageous, and lenders presumably want to know therer are no obstacles before lending.

 

[signed]

before Talgo Avril is fully approved in France would be courageous

Some trial runs have definitely taken place in France (I have spotted a Renfe-livered Avril a few months back in Britanny), whether it is primarily for Le Train or Renfe's OA efforts, is unknown however). But I fully agree otherwise

 

[signed]

I haven't seen a confirmation of this order from Talgo yet.

That will probably never come

SNCF has been awarded the tender to continue operating the Nantes-Bordeaux and Nantes-Lyon daytime classic line services (as if it wasn't unexpected), with the existing Alstom Coradia Liners, neither Le Train and Renfe (the other bidders) have been choosen.

Nantes-Bordeaux et Nantes-Lyon : l’État ne prend pas « Le Train » et renouvelle le bail de SNCF Voyageurs

L’État a choisi SNCF Voyageurs (« Intercités ») pour poursuivre l’exploitation des deux lignes ouvertes à la concurrence. Les offres de la Renfe espagnole et de la société bordelaise Le Train ont été rejetées

www.sudouest.fr

Exit Le Train. The Bordeaux-based company has not been chosen to operate the Nantes-Bordeaux and Nantes-Lyon lines, two regional balance trains (TET) open to competition. SNCF Voyageurs has been awarded the contract, announced the French Transport Minister on Tuesday January 28. The Spanish company Renfe, the third candidate in this call for tenders, was not selected either.

 

[nwales58]

Mods: worth pulling post 31 onwards into the Le Train thread as we’ve wobbled off the sleeper order suppliers?

That will probably never come

SNCF has been awarded the tender to continue operating the Nantes-Bordeaux and Nantes-Lyon daytime classic line services (as if it wasn't unexpected), with the existing Alstom Coradia Liners, neither Le Train and Renfe (the other bidders) have been choosen.

I was under the impression that Le Train was both a) an open access operator proposing competing services, later b) bidding for the TET services.

Have they now given up trying for open access on these routes too? Their web site is unchanged.

We know the chances of the open access startups actually running are low but that’s adifferent avenue.

 

[signed]

The tender has started for the night train stock

It consists of a long term lease (15 years with a maximum of 18 years) of both all-new 27 bi-mode locos, with options for a further 15, and 180 carriages with options for a further 160.

Détail d'un avis | boamp.fr — boamp.fr

www.boamp.fr

Le marché, objet de la présente consultation, est un marché de fournitures tel que défini à l'article L.1111-3 du code de la commande publique. Seront notamment confiées au titulaire de chaque lot les prestations suivantes : Conception, construction et financement associé du matériel roulant ferroviaire et gestion des commandes et de leur exécution avec le ou les constructeurs ; Mise à disposition directe du matériel roulant ferroviaire auprès du ou des exploitant(s) ferroviaire(s) en charge du service de TET de nuit ; Maintenance lourde des matériels roulants ferroviaires à mettre à disposition du ou des exploitant(s) ferroviaire(s). La consultation comporte deux lots : LOT 1 "Locomotives" et LOT 2 "Voitures".

The contract, the subject of this consultation, is a supply contract as defined in article L.1111-3 of the French Public Order Code. In particular, the contractor for each lot will be entrusted with the following services: Design, construction and associated financing of railway rolling stock and management of orders and their execution with the manufacturer(s); Direct provision of railway rolling stock to the railway operator(s) in charge of the night TET service; Heavy maintenance of railway rolling stock to be provided to the railway operator(s). The consultation comprises two lots: LOT 1 "Locomotives" and LOT 2 "Coaches".

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Offer deadline on March 21st

 

[Giugiaro]

Probably seeing these being bought by CP sometime in the following months, as the Portuguese Government is currently pushing to relaunch the Sud Express and Lusitânia by July/August.

Right now the rumors point towards trains fully composed of 1st Class Intercidades coaches. The 10.000 and 9.600 coaches bought from Spain are still months or years away from being intervened at the current rate, and they're not enough to do the Sud, let alone both the Sud and the Lusitania.

 

[signed]

Probably seeing these being bought by CP sometime in the following months, as the Portuguese Government is currently pushing to relaunch the Sud Express and Lusitânia by July/August.

Right now the rumors point towards trains fully composed of 1st Class Intercidades coaches. The 10.000 and 9.600 coaches bought from Spain are still months or years away from being intervened at the current rate, and they're not enough to do the Sud, let alone both the Sud and the Lusitania.

I think you misposted in this thread

 

[Giugiaro]

I didn't. I already submitted the documentation of the currently existing Intercités de Nuit to my superiors.

But I am still lacking some crucial details, like the electrical supply voltage these coaches take, among other things.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The electrical supply for Corail cars seems to be 380 V AC only.

File:J21 126 Bf Cerbère, Corail-Liegewagen.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Probably seeing these being bought by CP sometime in the following months, as the Portuguese Government is currently pushing to relaunch the Sud Express and Lusitânia by July/August.

Right now the rumors point towards trains fully composed of 1st Class Intercidades coaches. The 10.000 and 9.600 coaches bought from Spain are still months or years away from being intervened at the current rate, and they're not enough to do the Sud, let alone both the Sud and the Lusitania.

Ooh - interesting - worthy of a new thread perhaps? It is such a pain to get to Portugal by rail at the moment. Presumably it will be an all CP operation - COVID gave RENFE an excuse to get out. Has the electrification between Salamanca and Vilar Formoso been completed?

 

[danchester]

Some more details have been published: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lancement-de-la-procédure-du-renouvellement-matériel-des-soncarrieu-8ynle/

Après une phase de déclin depuis les années 1980, la demande de trains de nuit s’est accélérée ces dernières années. Ainsi, malgré des circulations rendues difficiles voire impossibles sur différentes lignes et à certaines périodes du fait des travaux (toutefois indispensables pour régénérer le réseau), le nombre de voyageurs des trains de nuit TET a augmenté de près de 24 % entre 2023 et 2024 et a approché en 2024 la barre du million (950 000 voyageurs). L’État accompagne depuis plusieurs années la relance des trains de nuit, avec notamment l’ouverture de Paris-Nice en mai 2021, Paris-Tarbes en décembre 2021 et Paris-Aurillac en décembre 2023, la rénovation en 2021-2023 des voitures actuelles pour 106 M€, ainsi qu’une aide au démarrage de Paris-Vienne/Berlin depuis décembre 2023. Continuer de moderniser les trains de nuit suppose des investissements à la fois sur les infrastructures et sur le matériel roulant. Il s’agit d’un projet nécessitant du temps et de l'argent.

Aujourd’hui intervient une étape très concrète avec le lancement de l’avis d’appel public à concurrence (AAPC) pour un marché de location du nouveau matériel des TET de nuit qui comprend deux lots, d’une part les locomotives, et d’autre part les voitures.

L’Etat souhaite que les voitures proposent une gamme élargie de niveaux de confort : des compartiments lits privatifs ; des compartiments couchettes collectifs ; des mini-cabines couchettes individuelles ; des sièges inclinables. Le matériel comprendra des places spécifiques pour les voyageurs en fauteuil roulant, lits ou sièges inclinables, avec accès à des sanitaires adaptés. 8 places pour le transport des vélos équipées de prises électriques existeront pour chaque tranche de TET de nuit. Une attention particulière sera apportée à la conception et construction durables de ce matériel.

Ce projet s’ajoute aux 4 Md€ déjà engagés par l’Etat pour le matériel roulant et les installations de maintenance depuis 2013, afin de moderniser le matériel roulant des lignes TET et des lignes TET reprises par les régions en 2018-2020.

After a phase of decline since the 1980s, demand for night trains has accelerated in recent years. Thus, despite traffic being made difficult or even impossible on various lines and at certain times due to works (which are nevertheless essential to regenerate the network), the number of passengers on TET night trains increased by almost 24% between 2023 and 2024 and approached the one million mark in 2024 (950,000 passengers). The State has been supporting the revival of night trains for several years, including the opening of Paris-Nice in May 2021, Paris-Tarbes in December 2021 and Paris-Aurillac in December 2023, the renovation in 2021-2023 of the current carriages for €106 million, as well as start-up assistance for Paris-

Vienna/Berlin since December 2023. Continuing to modernize night trains requires investments in both infrastructure and rolling stock. This is a project that requires time and money.

Today, a very concrete step is being taken with the launch of the public call for competition (AAPC) for a rental market for new night TET equipment, which includes two lots: the locomotives on the one hand, and the cars on the other.

The State wants the cars to offer a wider range of comfort levels: private sleeping compartments; collective sleeping compartments; individual mini-sleeper cabins; reclining seats. The equipment will include specific places for wheelchair users, reclining beds or seats, with access to adapted toilets. 8 places for transporting bicycles equipped with electrical outlets will exist for each night TET period. Particular attention will be paid to the sustainable design and construction of this equipment.

This project is in addition to the €4 billion already committed by the State for rolling stock and maintenance facilities since 2013, in order to modernise the rolling stock of the TET lines and the TET lines taken over by the regions in 2018-2020.

Includes mention of private sleepers, couchettes, mini-cabins and reclining seats. Promising!

 

[signed]

Some more details have been published: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lancement-de-la-procédure-du-renouvellement-matériel-des-soncarrieu-8ynle/




Includes mention of private sleepers, couchettes, mini-cabins and reclining seats. Promising!

I am very interested in who would be chosen

The whole thing, sounds just like they want the same stock as Nightjet new Generation. But that seems quite unrealistic as the whole system of Intercités de Nuit runs on split-running and Nightjet new generation are fixed-formation.

 

[popeter45]

I am very interested in who would be chosen

The whole thing, sounds just like they want the same stock as Nightjet new Generation. But that seems quite unrealistic as the whole system of Intercités de Nuit runs on split-running and Nightjet new generation are fixed-formation.

there is nothing stopping NJNG like stock from being ordered as reformable like CZ's comfortjet carriages that are of the same Family
the bigger issue here is if SNCF is willing to order from Siemens

 

[signed]

the bigger issue here is if SNCF is willing to order from Siemens

This tender is from the central gov and has nothing to with SNCF.

I know the favouritism of Alstom will probably strike, though they don't have anything nearly suitable on the market, a Siemens-Alstom joint-venture sounds likelier.

 

[43096]

The tender has started for the night train stock

It consists of a long term lease (15 years with a maximum of 18 years) of both all-new 27 bi-mode locos, with options for a further 15, and 180 carriages with options for a further 160.

Détail d'un avis | boamp.fr — boamp.fr

www.boamp.fr

Offer deadline on March 21st

The term "bi-mode" suggests electro-diesel locos, but may just simply mean a multi-system (25kV AC and 1500V DC) electric loco. Presumably maximum speed is 200km/h, which would seem to make an electro-diesel a challenge. Alstom's TRAXX would seem a likely contender given France's penchant for ignoring EU procurement law and going for home manufactured - I'd lay odds on Belfort assembling rather than the normal TRAXX manufacturing location of Kassel.

 

[30907]

I am very interested in who would be chosen

The whole thing, sounds just like they want the same stock as Nightjet new Generation. But that seems quite unrealistic as the whole system of Intercités de Nuit runs on split-running and Nightjet new generation are fixed-formation.

27 locos and 180 coaches would be consistent with a NJ-style operation, maybe with shorter formations for the likes of Aurillac and Rodez.
AFAIK there are no 3-way splits in the IC de Nuit workings, and given the spec, you would need at least 4 vehicles, probably 5, per destination.

 

[signed]

The term "bi-mode" suggests electro-diesel locos, but may just simply mean a multi-system (25kV AC and 1500V DC) electric loco

In French bi-mode refers to diesel-electric (like the B82500 TERs nicknamed Bi-Bi) for a multi-system electric loco, you would use bi/tri/quadri-tension. It very much seems to me that they want a electro-diesel locomotive.

 

[43096]

To run on French classic lines you need both 1.5kV and 3kV DC, if you want to have LGV capabilities add 25kV AC. In French bi-mode refers to diesel-electric, for a multi-system, you would use bi/tri/quadri-tension

French classic lines you need 25kV AC and 1.5kV DC, as the Sybics etc have. If you want to run internationally, add 3kV DC and/or 15kV AC.

If they are wanting a 200km/h electro-diesel that would seem to be struggle - closest you get is something like the Stadler EuroDual but that is 6-axle and probably a 160km/h max.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

There is no 3kV DC electrification in France. Classic lines in northern France are electrified at 25kV AC while the south has 1.5kV DC.

 

[signed]

There is no 3kV DC electrification in France. Classic lines in northern France are electrified at 25kV AC while the south has 1.5kV DC.

I am dumb indeed, thanks. The rest of my point stands though

 

[popeter45]

I am dumb indeed, thanks. The rest of my point stands though

on the flip side 3kV would be useful for potential international routes to either belgium or Italy (return of Paris-Milan sleeper would be nice)

 

[signed]

If they are wanting a 200km/h electro-diesel that would seem to be struggle - closest you get is something like the Stadler EuroDual but that is 6-axle and probably a 160km/h max.

Don't think 200kph is really warranted for those applications, the schedule is already massively padded, especially on the Pyrenees sleepers (where you stay 3 to 4h in Toulouse station sidings), but we don't have more information so this is speculative.

on the flip side 3kV would be useful for potential international routes to either belgium or Italy (return of Paris-Milan sleeper would be nice)

Not going to happen sadly, this is a purely non-commercial operation and tender. If this comes back one day it's probably going to be NJ.

 

[Giugiaro]

3kV DC is also necessary to run in the Spanish conventional network although it's gatekept by a broader gauge.
Unless they're planning to use the 3rd rail dual gauge track from Figueres to Barcelona in place of the high-speed line.
I'm assuming they might have a national interest in extending to Barcelona the Intercité de Nuit bound for Cèrbere.

the bigger issue here is if SNCF is willing to order from Siemens

From what I read, the contract is for nineteen years and six months and includes the manufacture and provision of rolling stock.
So this is very clearly a leasing contract, not an acquisition contract. As long as the train is made in Europe, does it matter to the French if they're borrowing a train from a German manufacturer?

I mean, from what I've witnessed on the Siemens booth at Innotrans they seem to be very keen on providing trains as a service as opposed to providing them as a product. And for that, the tender seems to be tailor-made for Siemens.
Unless Alstom is also planning to go down the "big tech" ideology of you will own nothing and you will be happy and also propose to build then lease a fleet of locomotives and night trains to the French government.

 

[signed]

Unless Alstom is also planning to go down the "big tech" ideology of you will own nothing and you will be happy and also propose to build then lease a fleet of locomotives and night trains to the French government.

Siemens will likely be chosen for the carriages, there are no other night train carriages currently off-the-shelves at the big 2 and choosing either CAF or Talgo is a reciepe for disaster.

But the loco-situation is trickier as discussed up-thread. I do not discount seeing a Alstom-Siemens joint-venture.

 

[popeter45]

Siemens will likely be chosen for the carriages, there are no other night train carriages currently off-the-shelves at the big 2 and choosing either CAF or Talgo is a reciepe for disaster.

But the loco-situation is trickier as discussed up-thread. I do not discount seeing a Alstom-Siemens joint-venture.

if thats the case as they would need to certify for France i wonder if that could lead to NJNG stock on the Paris NJ service in a few years?

 

[signed]

if thats the case as they would need to certify for France i wonder if that could lead to NJNG stock on the Paris NJ service in a few years?

Probably not in the ÖBB form, as the Paris NJ service is combined at Mannheim with the Brussels service and NJNG stock being fixed-formation.

This is discounting any future demand factor that would warrant a whole set up to Vienna, also the fact that NJ has better use of NJNG elsewhere than to Paris, in the near future.

But, as mentioned up-thread it appears that there is a possibility that type of carriages could be made free-formation for the French lease which could change the above.

 

[Trainbike46]

Probably not in the ÖBB form, as the Paris NJ service is combined at Mannheim with the Brussels service and NJNG stock being fixed-formation.

This is discounting any future demand factor that would warrant a whole set up to Vienna, also the fact that NJ has better use of NJNG elsewhere than to Paris, in the near future.

But, as mentioned up-thread it appears that there is a possibility that type of carriages could be made free-formation for the French lease which could change the above.

While the new generation night jet is 7-car fixed-formation, some trains using it do split, because the consist of 2 NJNG rakes together, with a locomotive, to give a 14-car+locomotive train
As long as you don't want/need more than a 2-way split, this isn't a problem. Whether that would be sufficient to meet the needs for the French network, or whether it would be necessary or desirable to acquire free-formation cars instead, is a separate question

 

[43096]

Siemens will likely be chosen for the carriages, there are no other night train carriages currently off-the-shelves at the big 2 and choosing either CAF or Talgo is a reciepe for disaster.

Stadler say hello...

They will do bespoke designs (see plenty of Swiss metre gauge examples) and have won order for sleeper vehicles in the past.

 

[signed]

Stadler say hello...

They will do bespoke designs (see plenty of Swiss metre gauge examples) and have won order for sleeper vehicles in the past.

Indeed, but reading #42 really sounds like Siemens' plate (especially with the mention of mini-cabins). Bonus point is that it would be nearly fully off-the-shelf, tried and tested.

But Stadler can indeed rock the ship, as they already have a electro-diesel loco on the market so they may win the loco part.
For the carriage part, in my opinion, that will not happen, the order is far from bespoke carriage stock. But I would be very happy to be surprised.