Reading Buses and Thames Valley

[Roger1973]

I just about remember the 90 (I think it was) from Bracknell to Reading, in terms of 2000s First Berks, but I didn't regularly go east out of Reading except to London until around 2015.

It depends when - it all changed a number of times in the 2000s / 2010s before First withdrew.

Early to mid 2000's, there were a group of routes on the Reading - Wokingham corridor -

190 was Reading - Bracknell (this may just have been evening and Sunday) reasonably direct (and I seem to remember Courtney did the Sunday service at one point - possibly under contract to Wokingham Council, and that may just have been Reading - Wokingham.)

191 was Reading - Bracknell - Ascot - Windsor - Slough

192 was Reading - Bracknell - Ascot (think there may have been some journeys - possibly round school times - through to Sunningdale)

193 was Reading - Wokingham - Camberley, buses generally worked a cycle of 193 Reading - Camberley then 194 Camberley - Bracknell and vice versa, so that drivers got back to Bracknell for breaks / change overs.

They ran as a regular (on paper at least) 20 minute headway at the Reading end.

The routes between Winnersh and Bracknell varied, with one serving Emmbrook, and at least one went in to Bracknell via Binfield, I think another went round some of the 'southern estates' in Bracknell. These in turn provided part of an even headway with a town service. I can't remember the exact details now, and don't have anything to hand with the detail.

I believe at a slightly earlier stage one or two of the routes got even further east, including to Heathrow (presumably via Slough) I have seen photographs of this but don't remember it (my involvement with the area started in the early 00's)

Then at some point the 190 was re-launched (with refurbished ex First London double deckers) as just Reading - Bracknell with a standard route, some areas lost their direct bus to Reading, some areas gained one (at the price of a convoluted 190 route) as the 190 also replaced a local service (196?) that didn't run west of Wokingham. 191 and 192 were cut back so as not to run west of Bracknell.

Then a bit later - after having made an effort to market the 190 as a brand - it turned in to the 90, and at one stage had two different lines of route (both under route number 90) between Wokingham and Bracknell - these turned in the 4 / X4 under Reading Buses, although I think the 4 now does a shorter loop in south Bracknell than it did at one time.

 

[nctd2306]

Although I think the 4 now does a shorter loop in south Bracknell than it did at one time.

Indeed, an Eastbound bus leaving Great Hollands now follows the 194 route into Bracknell, rather than following the 172 round Crown Wood on the longer way round.
The X4 has also, as of this year, been renamed the 4a.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It depends when - it all changed a number of times in the 2000s / 2010s before First withdrew.

Early to mid 2000's, there were a group of routes on the Reading - Wokingham corridor -

190 was Reading - Bracknell (this may just have been evening and Sunday) reasonably direct (and I seem to remember Courtney did the Sunday service at one point - possibly under contract to Wokingham Council, and that may just have been Reading - Wokingham.)

191 was Reading - Bracknell - Ascot - Windsor - Slough

192 was Reading - Bracknell - Ascot (think there may have been some journeys - possibly round school times - through to Sunningdale)

193 was Reading - Wokingham - Camberley, buses generally worked a cycle of 193 Reading - Camberley then 194 Camberley - Bracknell and vice versa, so that drivers got back to Bracknell for breaks / change overs.

They ran as a regular (on paper at least) 20 minute headway at the Reading end.

The routes between Winnersh and Bracknell varied, with one serving Emmbrook, and at least one went in to Bracknell via Binfield, I think another went round some of the 'southern estates' in Bracknell. These in turn provided part of an even headway with a town service. I can't remember the exact details now, and don't have anything to hand with the detail.

I believe at a slightly earlier stage one or two of the routes got even further east, including to Heathrow (presumably via Slough) I have seen photographs of this but don't remember it (my involvement with the area started in the early 00's)

Then at some point the 190 was re-launched (with refurbished ex First London double deckers) as just Reading - Bracknell with a standard route, some areas lost their direct bus to Reading, some areas gained one (at the price of a convoluted 190 route) as the 190 also replaced a local service (196?) that didn't run west of Wokingham. 191 and 192 were cut back so as not to run west of Bracknell.

Then a bit later - after having made an effort to market the 190 as a brand - it turned in to the 90, and at one stage had two different lines of route (both under route number 90) between Wokingham and Bracknell - these turned in the 4 / X4 under Reading Buses, although I think the 4 now does a shorter loop in south Bracknell than it did at one time.

Yep, I only remember the 90 and not the precursors at all. That Reading to Camberley via Wokingham sounds interesting.
Did it head through Finchampstead and Sandhurst between Wokingham and Camberley? Can't think of anything recently that would have replicated that route.

The 194 Bracknell-Camberley provides the main north south link in that sort of area.

 

[Bread & cheese]

That Reading to Camberley via Wokingham sounds interesting.
Did it head through Finchampstead and Sandhurst between Wokingham and Camberley?

At one time Reading to Camberley was route 3.
There's a publication on Timetable World, listed as:
Berkshire public transport Reading 1976-06 [Great Britain]
Which includes a map.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Yep, I only remember the 90 and not the precursors at all. That Reading to Camberley via Wokingham sounds interesting.
Did it head through Finchampstead and Sandhurst between Wokingham and Camberley? Can't think of anything recently that would have replicated that route.

The 194 Bracknell-Camberley provides the main north south link in that sort of area.

The Camberley to Reading 193 and Camberley to Bracknell 194 each ran hourly alongside each other Camberley - The Meadows - Owlsmoor - Sandhurst - Crowthorne, offering a combined half-hourly frequency over that section. At the top of Crowthorne High Street, where the 194 turns right towards Bracknell, the 193 turned left along Dukes Ride.

From there, alternate 193s either carried on along Dukes Ride past Crowthorne Station then right up Lower Wokingham Road, with the others turning right half way along Dukes Ride to run up New Wokingham Road and then left along Nine Mile Ride. The two 193 routings met up again shortly afterwards at the Queensmere Roundabout (where Lower Wokingham Road and Nine Mile Ride meet), with all 193s then running along Nine Mile Ride to California Crossroads, then north along Finchampstead Road into Wokingham. From Wokingham, they continued on to Reading via Emmbrook and the A329 through Winnersh and Earley.

When the 193 was withdrawn in the first half of the 2000s, the 194 was doubled to half-hourly to compensate for the 193s loss between Camberley and Crowthorne, as well as offering a higher frequency from there into Bracknell.

Attached is a timetable from 2000.

 

[AlastairFraser]

At one time Reading to Camberley was route 3.
There's a publication on Timetable World, listed as:
Berkshire public transport Reading 1976-06 [Great Britain]
Which includes a map.
View attachment 178153

Interesting, thank you. It's a long while since places like Tidmarsh have had a regular bus on that map, although I feel that most of the places in rural Berks that lost their services will regain them soon as that's what the trend seems to be.

The Camberley to Reading 193 and Camberley to Bracknell 194 each ran hourly alongside each other Camberley - The Meadows - Owlsmoor - Sandhurst - Crowthorne, offering a combined half-hourly frequency over that section. At the top of Crowthorne High Street, where the 194 turns right towards Bracknell, the 193 turned left along Dukes Ride.

From there, alternate 193s either carried on along Dukes Ride past Crowthorne Station then right up Lower Wokingham Road, with the others turning right half way along Dukes Ride to run up New Wokingham Road and then left along Nine Mile Ride. The two 193 routings met up again shortly afterwards at the Queensmere Roundabout (where Lower Wokingham Road and Nine Mile Ride meet), with all 193s then running along Nine Mile Ride to California Crossroads, then north along Finchampstead Road into Wokingham. From Wokingham, they continued on to Reading via Emmbrook and the A329 through Winnersh and Earley.

When the 193 was withdrawn in the first half of the 2000s, the 194 was doubled to half-hourly to compensate for the 193s loss between Camberley and Crowthorne, as well as offering a higher frequency from there into Bracknell.

Attached is a timetable from 2000.

View attachment 178154

Thank you from this, another blast from the past with Mothercare mentioned! It's interesting that there was no Sunday service, given the proximity to California Country Park. I suspect it fell through as the demographics of the population of the villages between Sandhurst and Wokingham have always been heavily skewed towards those who own at least one car, and Reading's attractiveness as a place to shop has declined significantly over the years.

 

[nick291]

Reading buses have anounced their open day for June 29th. I might go as the last time I went was in 2018 and things have obviously changed since then!

 

[cactustwirly]

Reading Buses is starting to replace the Yellow 26 fleet with EVs:

Eight extra electric buses heading for Reading | Reading Borough Council News

Government funding of £1.3m announced for eight more zero-emission buses to run on Reading – Calcot route Funding on top of £4.7m already secured for fleet of 24 electric buses on routes 17 and 21 Investment supports Council’s aims of encouraging public transport use, reducing carbon emissions...

media.reading.gov.uk

This is my local route, well overdue the current buses are completely clapped out

 

[crablab]

well overdue the current buses are completely clapped out

Entirely agree. They're also the failed hybrids that were converted back to full diesel, so that can't have helped matters.
Summer 2026 is a long time to wait...

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Entirely agree. They're also the failed hybrids that were converted back to full diesel, so that can't have helped matters.
Summer 2026 is a long time to wait...

It was suggested at the time of the order for E400EVs that the converted hybrids were for the chop when they arrive - certainly they are among the oldest deckers in the fleet now.

 

[cactustwirly]

Entirely agree. They're also the failed hybrids that were converted back to full diesel, so that can't have helped matters.
Summer 2026 is a long time to wait...

They had a nice refurb, but mechanically they are not good. Some are very slow indeed, hopefully they'll cling on

It was suggested at the time of the order for E400EVs that the converted hybrids were for the chop when they arrive - certainly they are among the oldest deckers in the fleet now.

This will be the 15/16 and 23/24 buses plus the spares
My initial thought was the Claret E400 MMCs would be cascaded to the 26 when the 21 gets the EVs

 

[crablab]

What's happening to the 17s that are being displaced? Or are the EVs the route is getting supplementing, rather than replacing ?

 

[buslad1988]

It was suggested at the time of the order for E400EVs that the converted hybrids were for the chop when they arrive - certainly they are among the oldest deckers in the fleet now.

They might not be the best mechanically but they’ll surely be snapped up quickly when sold on. They’ve had tough lives in Reading.

They’re well spec’d internally, have good capacity and are decent looking vehicles. Ideal replacements for some of the aging stock in places like Ipswich or Stephensons of Essex?

What's happening to the 17s that are being displaced? Or are the EVs the route is getting supplementing, rather than replacing ?

You’d imagine they’d go onto the Sky Blue or the Oranges.

The Streetdecks are an anomaly in the fleet so maybe they’d want to standardise on ADL and shift them on whilst they’re still a good value?

Whilst I’m looking forward to the new EV’s and they sound like they’ll be to a really nice spec I’m still not a fan of the social seating but it sounds like that’s what Reading are wanting as a feature in all their new ADL’s. The ex Warrington E200MMC’s now at Arriva Yorkshire with this style rear seating look so scruffy and worn out, and they’re only 7 years old.

 

[cactustwirly]

They might not be the best mechanically but they’ll surely be snapped up quickly when sold on. They’ve had tough lives in Reading.

They’re well spec’d internally, have good capacity and are decent looking vehicles. Ideal replacements for some of the aging stock in places like Ipswich or Stephensons of Essex?



You’d imagine they’d go onto the Sky Blue or the Oranges.

The Streetdecks are an anomaly in the fleet so maybe they’d want to standardise on ADL and shift them on whilst they’re still a good value?

Whilst I’m looking forward to the new EV’s and they sound like they’ll be to a really nice spec I’m still not a fan of the social seating but it sounds like that’s what Reading are wanting as a feature in all their new ADL’s. The ex Warrington E200MMC’s now at Arriva Yorkshire with this style rear seating look so scruffy and worn out, and they’re only 7 years old.

The 17s will be converted to single doors and put on the Sky Blue and Berry routes

No plans to replace the streetdecks

 

[buslad1988]

The 17s will be converted to single doors and put on the Sky Blue and Berry routes

No plans to replace the streetdecks

Interesting, thanks! I’m surprised they’re going to the expense of removing centre doors - surely easier just to leave them. Routes like the Sky Blue are surely busy enough to warrant them.

 

[crablab]

The 17s will be converted to single doors and put on the Sky Blue and Berry routes

Reading needs more double doors in my experience, not fewer!

Dwell times can be poor at some of the busier stops, which isn't helped by disembarking having to be serialised with boarding.
In general, I wish there was a focus on speeding things up. With TOTO rolled out, we should perhaps be looking to completely remove the 'buy a ticket onboard' option.

Routes like the Sky Blue are surely busy enough to warrant them.

Agreed.

Side note: are they ever going to increase capacity on the 2/2A? Those are some of the busiest buses I see, and they are single decker too (why?).

 

[GW4117]

This is my local route, well overdue the current buses are completely clapped out

Mine as well, can they extend all services to IKEA, plus maybe an hourly service back to Theale, since the Arlington Business Park services have been cancelled.

 

[Beemax]

Entirely agree. They're also the failed hybrids that were converted back to full diesel, so that can't have helped matters.
Summer 2026 is a long time to wait...

Agree. I was following 218 on a 15 up Dee Road the other day. I could have overtaken it walking.

 

[nctd2306]

Side note: are they ever going to increase capacity on the 2/2A? Those are some of the busiest buses I see, and they are single decker too (why?).

I could be wrong but isn't there a low bridge somewhere on the route that double deckers can't fit under?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Reading needs more double doors in my experience, not fewer!

Dwell times can be poor at some of the busier stops, which isn't helped by disembarking having to be serialised with boarding.

Problem is that no one uses them where they have been introduced. People default to alighting at the front because they are used to it, sadly.

In general, I wish there was a focus on speeding things up. With TOTO rolled out, we should perhaps be looking to completely remove the 'buy a ticket onboard' option.

I don't think that this would be a good idea, there's plenty of people who wish to pay with cash, and it would be silly to be reliant solely on TOTO (not a super mature technology yet).

One alternative would be to install ticket machines at all stops on the most frequent routes (I'd say 5/6/6a/17/20/21 initially) and make them buy before boarding a la Belfast Glider. That way, you can save boarding time and also protect the driver from the risk of robbery.

 

[Deerfold]

Problem is that no one uses them where they have been introduced. People default to alighting at the front because they are used to it, sadly.

I don't think that this would be a good idea, there's plenty of people who wish to pay with cash, and it would be silly to be reliant solely on TOTO (not a super mature technology yet).

One alternative would be to install ticket machines at all stops on the most frequent routes (I'd say 5/6/6a/17/20/21 initially) and make them buy before boarding a la Belfast Glider. That way, you can save boarding time and also protect the driver from the risk of robbery.

Unless the machines are card only, they become a target instead.

If they're card only, you might as well have an app for locals and somewhere to buy day/week tickets in the city centre for anyone else.

 

[crablab]

you might as well have an app for locals and somewhere to buy day/week tickets in the city centre for anyone else.

Which is the situation as it stands right now.

I don't think that this would be a good idea, there's plenty of people who wish to pay with cash, and it would be silly to be reliant solely on TOTO (not a super mature technology yet).

Increasingly diminishing, anecdotally.
Why would that be silly? It's perfectly mature, just not widely used in the UK until recently.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Unless the machines are card only, they become a target instead.

If they're card only, you might as well have an app for locals and somewhere to buy day/week tickets in the city centre for anyone else.

You can empty them using secure vans, instead of transferring the risk onto drivers on routes heading through some of the sketchiest parts of Reading though.
An app ticket still needs to be scanned to avoid fraud (so no real boarding time reduction) and having somewhere in the town centre would be useless for someone coming in from the fringes.

Increasingly diminishing, anecdotally.
Why would that be silly? It's perfectly mature, just not widely used in the UK until recently.

Because the technology relies on Ticketer machines (often reliant on a half-decent internet connection) and sometimes overcharges people, which is fiddly to sort out. Ticket machines would 1) provide somewhere with a constant and stable internet connection to buy a ticket (not always easy in a hilly town like Reading if you're relying on mobile internet) and 2) you could tap on/tap off at the stop within a reasonable time of the bus departure/arrival and just get on/get off when it arrives/departs.
Try the system in Belfast one day - really works well, and I know a lot about the issues with the super frequent routes like the 17 because I used to use them quite frequently.

 

[AB93]

You can empty them using secure vans, instead of transferring the risk onto drivers on routes heading through some of the sketchiest parts of Reading though.

Don't Reading's standard services/buses have cash vaults so the drivers don't handle cash anyway?

Because the technology relies on Ticketer machines (often reliant on a half-decent internet connection)

Not required - they work offline.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Don't Reading's standard services/buses have cash vaults so the drivers don't handle cash anyway?

Yes, although ticket machines off-bus would be a good deterrent to stop the scrotes of Newtown/Oxy Road/Whitley from causing issues with your valuable human capital

Not required - they work offline.

Doesn't that pose issues with fare recovery later on when funds are taken from empty bank accounts?

 

[wiltshirebloke]

You can empty them using secure vans, instead of transferring the risk onto drivers on routes heading through some of the sketchiest parts of Reading though.
An app ticket still needs to be scanned to avoid fraud (so no real boarding time reduction) and having somewhere in the town centre would be useless for someone coming in from the fringes.

It's a lot of infrastructure and running cost outlay though. You'd have to pay for the points to be installed, running cost of the internet connection and finally the running of the cash in transit service, and ultimately still run the risk of someone ramming the machine over for a quick buck.

 

[Deerfold]

You can empty them using secure vans, instead of transferring the risk onto drivers on routes heading through some of the sketchiest parts of Reading though.

I'm not sure how you empty them stops the machines being a target.

An app ticket still needs to be scanned to avoid fraud (so no real boarding time reduction) and having somewhere in the town centre would be useless for someone coming in from the fringes.

Do the tickets from these hypothetical machines not need to be scanned?

 

[crablab]

An app ticket still needs to be scanned to avoid fraud (so no real boarding time reduction)

Significant boarding time reduction versus the time taken to faff around with buying tickets.
It's noticeable how much quicker everything is at at Mary's Butts going back out when people have tickets to scan, compared to all the tickets being bought on the way in.

Doesn't that pose issues with fare recovery later on when funds are taken from empty bank accounts?

tl;dr: no. I've explained this elsewhere on the forum before.

provide somewhere with a constant and stable internet connection to buy a ticket (not always easy in a hilly town like Reading if you're relying on mobile internet)

This really is not an issue in practice. I refer you to the Ofcom coverage maps.

you could tap on/tap off at the stop within a reasonable time of the bus departure/arrival and just get on/get off when it arrives/departs.

Or you could just do what the whole of London does, not faff around with more fixed & vulnerable infrastructure, and just get people to tap on as they board...

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, although ticket machines off-bus would be a good deterrent to stop the scrotes of Newtown/Oxy Road/Whitley from causing issues with your valuable human capital

Is it really an issue? Those areas are hardly inner city Birmingham or London

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's a lot of infrastructure and running cost outlay though. You'd have to pay for the points to be installed, running cost of the internet connection and finally the running of the cash in transit service, and ultimately still run the risk of someone ramming the machine over for a quick buck.

Which is why I'd only initially trial it on the 17 and perhaps 5/6/21 afterwards.
With the 17, they've upgraded frequency, introduced the red route parking restrictions, and this would be the next step to improve the route (especially journey times) before any sort of proper BRT/tram system.

I'm not sure how you empty them stops the machines being a target.

It doesn't stop the machines becoming a target, it stops the drivers becoming a target. Cash in transit services are run by professionals who are trained how to deal with those seeking to commit robbery, drivers are not.

Do the tickets from these hypothetical machines not need to be scanned?

Not necessarily.

Significant boarding time reduction versus the time taken to faff around with buying tickets.
It's noticeable how much quicker everything is at at Mary's Butts going back out when people have tickets to scan, compared to all the tickets being bought on the way in.

Imagine if all tickets on the 17 at least were purchasable off bus though. Imagine how much time you'd save in the travel peak.

tl;dr: no. I've explained this elsewhere on the forum before.

Fair enough

This really is not an issue in practice. I refer you to the Ofcom coverage maps.

Whether signal actually functions or not in plenty of areas covered by the Ofcom maps is debatable.

Or you could just do what the whole of London does, not faff around with more fixed & vulnerable infrastructure, and just get people to tap on as they board...

Reading isn't London though, and it runs a mix of routes with lots of different fare types (unless you're advocating a tap-on/no tap-off flat fare system with a single set somewhere between £1.50 and £1.75, similar to London, which would be a fair compromise).

Is it really an issue? Those areas are hardly inner city Birmingham or London

Whitley and Oxy Road in particular are hubs for crackheads who will do anything to get their next fix. I wouldn't take my wallet out beforehand anywhere near those areas for that reason. Your average crackhead can't ram raid a ticket machine luckily.