Proposed new Liverpool & Manchester Railway

[MarkyT]

So that's a station demolishing the new £20m road link from Bank Quay to the Chester Road, and a new railway across where the £200m Western Link road is supposed to go.

Not showstoppers I think. At their interfaces, the conflicting designs yet to be built can be integrated and compromises made, perhaps meaning the railway must stay elevated for further or the road goes higher or lower in the immediate area. Slutchers Lane overbridge might be removed entirely with the road replaced at a lower level and straighter, avoiding the tight bend at the top of the current ramp. The new line and station would pass over it. The future Western link could prove useful to bring railway-related traffic to the west side of the station where new car parks might be established in the soap factory site, thus avoiding clogging up local roads on the east side of the station, the pedestrian interface to the town centre.

 

[stephen rp]

Yes. I assume it would be cheaper to lower the link road (A49 Widmerpool Queensway), rather than raise the railway viaduct at that point


The Western Link road bridges the Ditton Goods Line. This image shows the intended design of the northbound carriageway bridge. It allows 5.8m above rail level and a 12.8m clear span.

View attachment 159194
Unfortunately, the location of the new bridges will constrain the route of the Ditton Line around the Sankey Bridges, as shown here , which will limit the future speed of the line.
View attachment 159195

Sorry, I'd lost track of all the different vastly more expensive solutions to using the existing route west of Bank Quay. But I guess it's either going to be vastly more expensive and that will affect the cost/benefit analysis, or it's going to be using the existing route which will be so slow it will not save any time Liverpool-Manchester and that will affect the cost/benefit analysis.... of a Liverpool-Manchester route that even with HS2 doing the hard graft into Manchester was judged a poor business case.

 

[Nottingham59]

Sorry, I'd lost track of all the different vastly more expensive solutions to using the existing route west of Bank Quay. But I guess it's either going to be vastly more expensive and that will affect the cost/benefit analysis, or it's going to be using the existing route which will be so slow it will not save any time Liverpool-Manchester and that will affect the cost/benefit analysis.... of a Liverpool-Manchester route that even with HS2 doing the hard graft into Manchester was judged a poor business case.

Yes. It would have cost very little to have include a second bridge in the design of the new road to allow the Ditton Rail Line to be straightened out at a later date. But it looks like the road design has been finalised now.

That's always the way in this country. A city starts to grow economically. All the old railway lands get sold off; development encroaches onto the track beds. As the city grows the traffic jams up and new transport links are needed. But all of the cheap easy options to re-quad lines or whatever are no longer available. It's happened in London, and now it's happening in Manchester, and Warrington and Birmingham.

 

[HSTEd]

That bridge at Sankey Bridges being there is rather annoying, its about 1700m from Warrington Bank Quay, so it will likely constraint train acceleration.

I suppose you could gain a few hundred metres by moving the platforms entirely west of the WCML?

If the platforms were built on the old chemical works and were 400m long you would move the constraint to ~1300m from the stop boards. That would mean the trains would be passing more slowly through the area anyway.
I'm not really sold that these platforms are that useful, there are so many constraints on the route.

 

[Liverbird 1]

I think it's really important that we push for a link from the new NPR line from Liverpool that connects to the WCML going North (6 miles of new track from Rainhill Stoops to Winwick), to enable high speed Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central & Edinburgh Waverley services to operate on that line. This is a pretty smooth alignment below which would allow for a high speed connection.

A new NPR connection west of Warrington Bank Quay to the Runcorn East line to Chester, Llandudno & Holyhead is also very important.



With regard to the Liverpool end, specifically the new plans for Liverpool Central, I see 2 options but there's no reason why both can't be adopted.

OPTION 1

We build a new Liverpool Central High Level terminating station on the footprint of the old high level station, which will have room for 5No new platforms to free up capacity at Lime Street for more long distance services.



Platforms 1 - 4 at the new Liverpool Central High Level station would have a maximum platform length of approx. 175m, with Platform 5 a maximum length of approx. 155m.

This would give Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool Central a combined total of 15No mainline platforms (connected by a 300m tunnel), with medium distance services from Blackpool North, Manchester Airport, Manchester Oxford Road, Stalybridge & Wigan North Western all terminating at Liverpool Central.



The new tunnel portal at the mouth of Liverpool Central would naturally be here.



With a new double track, single bore tunnel heading east towards Edge Hill



With the Eastern Portal of the new tunnel to Liverpool Central coming out here to join the CLC and Chat Moss lines, with two new platforms at Edge Hill (Platforms 5 & 6).



OPTION 2

We redevelop Liverpool Central Low Level and create a new cross river route on the underground network.

Westbound services could use the existing 1830 Wapping Tunnel from Edge Hill, with a new section of tunnel introduced linking into the existing Edge Hill Spur tunnel portal south of Liverpool Central. Westbound services would then use the Paradise Street Junction stock exchange tunnel to carry onto James Street Platform 2, which would become a westbound platform on the new cross-river route.

For Eastbound services, a brand new new single bore tunnel could be introduced from the existing single bore tube from James Street Platform 1 to a new single tube platform at Liverpool Central (like the Wirral line platforms), carrying on east all the way towards Edge Hill, with a new eastbound single tube platform at Falkner Street station.



Looking at the Cavendish Cutting below, Westbound services would use the centre 1830 Wapping Tunnel, with the new westbound station platform at Falkner Street located inside the Wapping Tunnel itself (as it is wide enough for a double track). The new single bore Eastbound tube would be connected to the western end of the existing 1829 Crown Street Tunnel (eastern end is right hand portal below)



This option would mean direct semi-fast services from Manchester Airport and Blackpool North could continue through Liverpool Central and over to the Wirral.

But there's no reason why BOTH the options above couldn't be adopted.

Increasing mainline platform capacity in Liverpool City Centre to 15 platforms would free up capacity at Lime Street for new regular long distance services to Glasgow Central, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Bournemouth & Holyhead; with room for a second service to London Euston as well as all NPR services.

Introducing a new cross-river line would have its obvious benefits too, allowing for new thru-services from West Kirby to Huyton and Hooton to Liverpool South Parkway; as well as hourly semi-fast services from Chester to Blackpool North & Manchester Airport via Liverpool Central, which could be done by re-4-tracking the line from Hooton to Rock Ferry.

It currently takes 45 minutes to travel 15 stops from Liverpool Central to Chester on the Wirral Line. What if this could be done in 7 stops taking 22 minutes!? Think what that can do for the local economy. Implementing this would see a fast service from Liverpool Central to Chester every 30 minutes.

Creating a new fast line from Liverpool to Chester, slashing journey times by half is just as important in the grand scheme of things as Northern Powerhouse Rail and should be included as part of this levelling up strategy.

View attachment LU_P_2030 B_0.jpg

 

[stephen rp]

I think it's really important that we push for a link from the new NPR line from Liverpool that connects to the WCML going North (6 miles of new track from Rainhill Stoops to Winwick), to enable high speed Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central & Edinburgh Waverley services to operate on that line. This is a pretty smooth alignment below which would allow for a high speed connection.

A new NPR connection west of Warrington Bank Quay to the Runcorn East line to Chester, Llandudno & Holyhead is also very important.

View attachment 160198

With regard to the Liverpool end, specifically the new plans for Liverpool Central, I see 2 options but there's no reason why both can't be adopted.

OPTION 1

We build a new Liverpool Central High Level terminating station on the footprint of the old high level station, which will have room for 5No new platforms to free up capacity at Lime Street for more long distance services.

View attachment 160199

Platforms 1 - 4 at the new Liverpool Central High Level station would have a maximum platform length of approx. 175m, with Platform 5 a maximum length of approx. 155m.

This would give Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool Central a combined total of 15No mainline platforms (connected by a 300m tunnel), with medium distance services from Blackpool North, Manchester Airport, Manchester Oxford Road, Stalybridge & Wigan North Western all terminating at Liverpool Central.

View attachment 160201

The new tunnel portal at the mouth of Liverpool Central would naturally be here.

View attachment 160203

With a new double track, single bore tunnel heading east towards Edge Hill

View attachment 160204

With the Eastern Portal of the new tunnel to Liverpool Central coming out here to join the CLC and Chat Moss lines, with two new platforms at Edge Hill (Platforms 5 & 6).

View attachment 160205

OPTION 2

We redevelop Liverpool Central Low Level and create a new cross river route on the underground network.

Westbound services could use the existing 1830 Wapping Tunnel from Edge Hill, with a new section of tunnel introduced linking into the existing Edge Hill Spur tunnel portal south of Liverpool Central. Westbound services would then use the Paradise Street Junction stock exchange tunnel to carry onto James Street Platform 2, which would become a westbound platform on the new cross-river route.

For Eastbound services, a brand new new single bore tunnel could be introduced from the existing single bore tube from James Street Platform 1 to a new single tube platform at Liverpool Central (like the Wirral line platforms), carrying on east all the way towards Edge Hill, with a new eastbound single tube platform at Falkner Street station.

View attachment 160212

Looking at the Cavendish Cutting below, Westbound services would use the centre 1830 Wapping Tunnel, with the new westbound station platform at Falkner Street located inside the Wapping Tunnel itself (as it is wide enough for a double track). The new single bore Eastbound tube would be connected to the western end of the existing 1829 Crown Street Tunnel (eastern end is right hand portal below)

View attachment 160211

This option would mean direct semi-fast services from Manchester Airport and Blackpool North could continue through Liverpool Central and over to the Wirral.

But there's no reason why BOTH the options above couldn't be adopted.

Increasing mainline platform capacity in Liverpool City Centre to 15 platforms would free up capacity at Lime Street for new regular long distance services to Glasgow Central, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Bournemouth & Holyhead; with room for a second service to London Euston as well as all NPR services.

Introducing a new cross-river line would have its obvious benefits too, allowing for new thru-services from West Kirby to Huyton and Hooton to Liverpool South Parkway; as well as hourly semi-fast services from Chester to Blackpool North & Manchester Airport via Liverpool Central, which could be done by re-4-tracking the line from Hooton to Rock Ferry.

It currently takes 45 minutes to travel 15 stops from Liverpool Central to Chester on the Wirral Line. What if this could be done in 7 stops taking 22 minutes!? Think what that can do for the local economy. Implementing this would see a fast service from Liverpool Central to Chester every 30 minutes.

Creating a new fast line from Liverpool to Chester, slashing journey times by half is just as important in the grand scheme of things as Northern Powerhouse Rail and should be included as part of this levelling up strategy.

View attachment 160209

If Liverbirds could fly...

How many miles of new track (and how much in tunnel) before you get to the only six miles of new track from Rainhill Stoops to Winwick?

Seriously, did you make that up, or was it part of some unpublished NPR route before the DfT made them settle on using existing track west of Warrington?

 

[Liverbird 1]

If Liverbirds could fly...

How many miles of new track (and how much in tunnel) before you get to the only six miles of new track from Rainhill Stoops to Winwick?

Seriously, did you make that up, or was it part of some unpublished NPR route before the DfT made them settle on using existing track west of Warrington?

What do you mean? The new NPR route to Liverpool isn't going to be using existing track west of Warrington except from Lime Street to Edge Hill. That's my understanding anyway. Filling in the gap to connect from Liverpool to the WCML towards Wigan as below would be the optimum solution for services heading north, in my opinion.

Why should Manchester have a high speed connection to the North and not Liverpool!?

 

[stephen rp]

What do you mean? The new NPR route to Liverpool isn't going to be using existing track west of Warrington except from Lime Street to Edge Hill.

Oh yes it is.

That's my understanding anyway. Filling in the gap to connect from Liverpool to the WCML towards Wigan as below would be the optimum solution for services heading north, in my opinion.

Why should Manchester have a high speed connection to the North and not Liverpool!?

Do you mean HS2 via the Bamfurlong link?

That's long off the plans.

And at the moment Manchester hasn't got a high speed link anywhere, north south east or west.

 

[The Planner]

Oh yes it is.

They weren't, they follow the same route but not the same alignment.

 

[stephen rp]

They weren't, they follow the same route but not the same alignment.

And you've seen this new alignment?

But it doesn't go anywhere near Rainhill Stoops, which liverbird1 imagined.

 

[Senex]

Why should Manchester have a high speed connection to the North and not Liverpool!?

Even if the proposed east-to-north curve were still on the table it would likely be no improvement on the present route via Bolton. Northbound, neither Liverpool nor Manchester was really going to get anything out of the HS2 plans (less benefot than Birmingham, and even less than was proposed for Leeds across in Yorkshire).

 

[HSTEd]

How much traffic could we get out of a single underground platform on a balloon loop?

Probably cheaper than a whole surface station in a heavily built up area.
And if you engineer the loop properly you could leave space for a second platform.

With Hybrid ETCS, ATO and 30m signal blocks you could have a train at a stand, doors open, most of the time.

 

[Liverbird 1]

And you've seen this new alignment?

But it doesn't go anywhere near Rainhill Stoops, which liverbird1 imagined.

Sorry do you have a link or a map showing where the new NPR line would go between Liverpool and Manchester then if it's not as above? Since the announcement of the formation of the Board a few weeks ago I've not seen anything in way of a route only that it's a £12Billion line which will use the agreed HS2 Phase 2b alignment into Manchester and an underground station at Warrington Bank Quay and run from Liverpool Lime Street.

If you know something we don't please share..

I thought this was pretty much going to be the new alignment, with the black being tunnel sections

 

[The Planner]

And you've seen this new alignment?

But it doesn't go anywhere near Rainhill Stoops, which liverbird1 imagined.

Yes, ive seen the alignment to Ditton.

 

[JamesT]

Sorry do you have a link or a map showing where the new NPR line would go between Liverpool and Manchester then if it's not as above? Since the announcement of the formation of the Board a few weeks ago I've not seen anything in way of a route only that it's a £12Billion line which will use the agreed HS2 Phase 2b alignment into Manchester and an underground station at Warrington Bank Quay and run from Liverpool Lime Street.

If you know something we don't please share..

I thought this was pretty much going to be the new alignment, with the black being tunnel sections

View attachment 160228

Underground station in Warrington? My understanding was the most recent plans (the Integrated Rail Plan), had the existing Warrington Bank Quay low level platforms reinstated for NPR traffic. Which to me implies the approaches would be on the surface.

 

[stephen rp]

Sorry do you have a link or a map showing where the new NPR line would go between Liverpool and Manchester then if it's not as above? Since the announcement of the formation of the Board a few weeks ago I've not seen anything in way of a route only that it's a £12Billion line which will use the agreed HS2 Phase 2b alignment into Manchester and an underground station at Warrington Bank Quay and run from Liverpool Lime Street.

If you know something we don't please share..

I thought this was pretty much going to be the new alignment, with the black being tunnel sections

View attachment 160228

I'd be more interested in where that came from.

It might have been what TfN wanted for NPR but that was thrown out in the (Dis)Integrated Rail Plan for just new line between Warrington and Marsden leaving Liverpool to Warrington on the existing route via Ditton Junction and Fiddlers Ferry. All that's left now is a "high speed" line Liverpool to Manchester no quicker than the existing. All subject to further business case testing (and without HS2 there isn't likely to be one).

 

[Manutd1999]

I think this scheme has a lot going for it but it has to be planned and "marketed" correctly:

- It's all about capacity. Any journey time savings are nice extras but shouldn't drive the design. I.e. everything should be spec'd for 125mph "classic" services unless an overwhelming case can be made otherwise.
- It has to be delivered alongside HS2 Phase 2a. Without that, the capacity cannot be properly utilised.
- It has to include spurs towards Chester, the WCML and maybe even Sheffield. This enable almost all long-distance services to be removed from the existing Manchester network. Enabling creation of a "Manchester metro" is a key selling point for the whole scheme.
- It has to be delivered as a package of works, alongside completion of the TRU and electrification of some existing lines (CLC, Calder Valley etc.). This is both to enable the "Manchester metro" to be delivered and also to give a sense that all regions are benefitting.

Delivery of all of the above by ~2040 would be transformative for rail services across the north. A good project for an incoming Labour government to kick-start IMO

 

[Liverbird 1]

I'd be more interested in where that came from.

It might have been what TfN wanted for NPR but that was thrown out in the (Dis)Integrated Rail Plan for just new line between Warrington and Marsden leaving Liverpool to Warrington on the existing route via Ditton Junction and Fiddlers Ferry. All that's left now is a "high speed" line Liverpool to Manchester no quicker than the existing. All subject to further business case testing (and without HS2 there isn't likely to be one).

I think you're a bit behind the curve here Stephen rp.

There's talk of completely separating the new fast line and not using any of the old freight lines and having a Parkway station just off the Knowsley Expressway by the M62.

One of the big things of building this East - West leg first (apart from its importance) and using the agreed HS2 alignment into Manchester is to further the case for the government to fill in the missing link of HS2a, which will have far more chance of happening when NPR is built from Edge Hill all the way to Manchester on a completely new 225kph alignment. The £12 Billion is already there and earmarked and its my understanding that the Liverpool to Warrington section would cost around £3 Billion and the cash is there.

Like Manutd1999 said above, I think the consensus is that the separated NPR fast line will allow for more stopping services on existing routes, with the endgame of creating a kind of metro and keeping the fast and stopping completely separate.

 

[WAO]

Full marks for imaginative crayoning!
Would the customers on these new railways be additional to those at present or merely abstractions?
If these are abstractions, which present routes would then be at risk?
Is it likely that capital funding on this scale would be forthcoming (when many small schemes on the existing network are deemed unaffordable) even/especially if there is a change of Government?
Would NW taxpayers be willing foot the bill if required?
WAO

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Full marks for imaginative crayoning!
Would the customers on these new railways be additional to those at present or merely abstractions?
If these are abstractions, which present routes would then be at risk?
Is it likely that capital funding on this scale would be forthcoming (when many small schemes on the existing network are deemed unaffordable) even/especially if there is a change of Government?
Would NW taxpayers be willing foot the bill if required?
WAO

You know full well he doesn’t have the answers for those questions, so why ask?

Threads like this provide interesting insight in what’s fundamentally wrong with Britain. Railforums, to its credit, is very very good at saying why something can’t be done, but almost useless in providing any sort of vision for improvement. Those that do are ridiculed for it. What’s the point? I’ve said it before, but railforums should be rebranded as a professional forum for those in the industry. It unfortunately, seems to be moving further away from a rail enthusiasts’ space to congregate and share discussion on what for many, is a passion not a profession.

 

[WAO]

I share that passion, particularly for Merseyside, hence my concern for realistic speculation.
I don't prejudge the answers to my questions and would be pleased if they were positive.
Regards,
WAO

 

[Liverbird 1]

Thanks Sad Sprinter, post something to have a discussion on the topics and just get slagged off for it.. Pointless

 

[HSTEd]

- It's all about capacity. Any journey time savings are nice extras but shouldn't drive the design. I.e. everything should be spec'd for 125mph "classic" services unless an overwhelming case can be made otherwise.

Ultimately 125mph is only a common "top" speed in the UK because the rail regulator has made it the highest speed that can be used with conventional signalling.
It seems highly likely this line will be built with ETCS, so there is little reason to select 125mph more than any other top speed.

I would suggest the favourite top speed of the secondary Shinkansen, 260kph, or the ~249km/h popular in Europe would be better options.

If this is about capacity, we should build a single platform (with provision for a second later) on a balloon loop at Liverpool, then run a single stopping pattern stopping at Warrington, Manchester Airport and then Piccadilly (possibly skipping the airport if we aren't doing that).

Running all trains all stations will maximise capacity, and with modern high performance EMUs would not have that large a time disadvantage.
A large multiple platform terminus is not particularly useful in such a system and would be an enormous expense in central Liverpool.

 

[stephen rp]

Thanks Sad Sprinter, post something to have a discussion on the topics and just get slagged off for it.. Pointless

It was a bit pointless. It might have helped if you had read the thread, or at least the original post.

 

[Krokodil]

A new NPR connection west of Warrington Bank Quay to the Runcorn East line to Chester, Llandudno & Holyhead is also very important.

Why does a Chester spur have to be west of Warrington? Why can't it go from the Mid-Cheshire line to the airport? Yes, the existing service goes via Warrington, but the local traffic and those connecting for Scotland (bearing in mind that Warrington may not have a Scottish service if the HS2 Golborne spur ever gets built) could be catered for with a Chester-Blackpool stopper or whatever.

 

[stephen rp]

£17bn Manchester-Liverpool link in doubt - Place North West

Government funding may not existing for the anticipated railway line, according to reports from Liverpool on Wednesday. Plus: Avanti West Coast is set to continue on its contract.

www.placenorthwest.co.uk

And that sounds like before they looked at the business case.

Some spin in there too. "Plans for the rail link would cut travel times between the two cities by more than half" - maybe between the slowest current service and the fastest with a new line.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems former rail minister Huw Merriman is involved

Former rail minister Huw Merriman has been appointed chair of the Liverpool to Manchester Railway Partnership Board.
Meanwhile, the chair of Shadow Great British Railways has also been announced as West Midlands Combined Authority chief executive Laura Shoaf.

Liverpool to Manchester

The Liverpool-Manchester Railway Partnership Board has been tasked with providing private sector expertise, experience and strategic advice to the development of the proposals, hoping to build the business case for the most ambitious option possible.

The Liverpool to Manchester line will form the first part of the long-proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR). The establishment of the Board followed an announcement from the Department for Transport in March setting out the next steps for NPR.

The formation of the Board was announced at the UK Real Estate Investment and Infrastructure Forum (UKREIIF), in May. Early plans for the railway include transformational investment in city centre stations in Liverpool and a modern, underground station at Manchester Piccadilly - an option that had been highly contested for inclusion in High Speed 2 (HS2) Phase 2, prior to its cancellation.

The new high-speed rail line would run through a new station at Warrington Bank Quay and a new underground station at Manchester Airport, connecting the Investment Zones in Liverpool City Region and Greater Manchester via prime development sites.

Former rail minister Merriman to chair Liverpool to Manc rail board and Shadow GBR chair appointed | New Civil Engineer

Meanwhile, the chair of Shadow Great British Railways has also been announced as West Midlands Combined Authority chief executive Laura Shoaf. Liverpool

www.newcivilengineer.com

 

[HSTEd]

£17bn Manchester-Liverpool link in doubt - Place North West

Government funding may not existing for the anticipated railway line, according to reports from Liverpool on Wednesday. Plus: Avanti West Coast is set to continue on its contract.

www.placenorthwest.co.uk

And that sounds like before they looked at the business case.

Some spin in there too. "Plans for the rail link would cut travel times between the two cities by more than half" - maybe between the slowest current service and the fastest with a new line.

The disconnect is rather incredible.
They claim the benefits for a Shinkansen, but then propose a warmed over victorian railway for cost purposes.

It does appear the facade is falling apart though.

 

[Snow1964]

A new report by Liverpool Combined Authority on proposed new Liverpool Manchester Railway

A new railway connecting Liverpool and Manchester could kickstart a £90bn economic transformation across the North West – and help reshape how major infrastructure is delivered in the UK.

Regional leaders are today setting out proposals for a new Liverpool-Manchester Railway that would deliver jobs, growth and regeneration across the North West, while offering a new, more effective model for building big projects: led locally, delivered faster, and designed around communities.

Mayors Steve Rotheram and Andy Burnham, alongside former Rail Minister Huw Merriman, civic and business leaders from across the North West, are urging the government to work in partnership on the plans. A firm commitment now, they argue, would allow construction to begin in the early 2030s – giving certainty to investors and helping retain the skilled workforce built up through the delivery of HS2.

A report published today outlines the case for the new line, which would run from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly, with stops at a new Liverpool Gateway station, Warrington Bank Quay and Manchester Airport. It estimates that construction of the railway could deliver a £15bn boost to the economy and create 22,000 jobs.

But the impact goes far beyond the route itself and construction benefits. The railway would be one component of the Northern Arc – an emerging economic corridor stretching from the Mersey to the Pennines and beyond. Recent analysis by Metro Dynamics suggests that, as part the Arc, securing the growth trajectory of Greater Manchester, Cheshire and Warrington and Liverpool City Region area could add £90bn in cumulative GVA to the UK economy by 2040 and double the size of the region’s economy in less than 30 years.

Laying the tracks to growth: Liverpool-Manchester Railway plan could unlock £90bn economic boost

<p>The tracks are warming up for Liverpool to Manchester Railway, read more about what to expect</p>

www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is similar to HS2 in that they're perhaps promoting it for the wrong reasons. It won't be substantially quicker than the present fast services. However what it will do is allow fast services to be removed from Chat Moss and the CLC lines, allowing these to finally have the Merseyrail style 4tph service they deserve. That is the real benefit, and what should be being sold - it's about giving places around Manchester and Liverpool the commuter service they deserve but have never had because of fast trains needing to take up paths on these routes.