Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[Goldfish62]

But presumably smaller vehicles produce smaller profits.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Profit is simply the difference between the price you sell something and the cost of manufacture. If there's less competition then you might able to bump the price up, more competition and you may need to adopt keener pricing to maintain and grow your market share.

Plus of course there's the all-important quality of the product!

Currently, now that Optare look to be on the way out ADL appear to have the non-van-derived EV midibus to themselves.

 

[MotCO]

That doesn't necessarily follow. Profit is simply the difference between the price you sell something and the cost of manufacture. If there's less competition then you might able to bump the price up, more competition and you may need to adopt keener pricing to maintain and grow your market share.

But it is easier to charge a profit of £10,000 on a vehicle costing £400,000 (2.5% markup), than it is on a vehicle costing £150,000 (7% markup), particularly in competitive market. Edit: indicative values only to stress the point; I would expect actual prices are greater than this.

Currently, now that Optare look to be on the way out ADL appear to have the non-van-derived EV midibus to themselves.

But Wrightbus have their Rightech derivatives in 6m and 9m form, and does the Mellor / Higer Sigma range still exist?

 

[Energy]

NFI being the parent group / owner of ADL.

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With double deckers from China reportedly being 25% cheaper than the price of UK produced double deckers, the Yutong coaches picking up orders from many operators and no Plaxton coaches being produced, and Wrightbus securing a 1000 bus order with Go-Ahead the outlook for ADL looks challenging. The ADL100 has few direct competitors, so might be a salvation, but presumably smaller vehicles produce smaller profits.

Sources: https://www.route-one.net/news/byd-aims-to-make-battery-electric-viable-with-bd11-double-decker/

The E200EV has been struggling. All four batches for Stagecoach have gone to Yutong because ADL could not meet delivery times [source].

ADL poorly handled the BYD partnership towards the end, leaving them with no single-deck electric vehicles for a long time since the E200EV integral wasn't ready. Yutong's foot in the door at many operators (e.g. Stagecoach) is them being unable to wait for ADL.

When Wrightbus was having problems, ADL had the market to itself, so it's expected that ADL would lose market share. I think operators have wised up and realised that they don't have to put up with the ADL rattles when they go elsewhere.

 

[Goldfish62]

But it is easier to charge a profit of £10,000 on a vehicle costing £400,000 (2.5% markup), than it is on a vehicle costing £150,000 (7% markup), particularly in competitive market.

There is no way that such a price difference exists between a 8.5m bus and a longer one with essentially the same drive train. In the diesel market there's barely any difference. In the EV market obviously battery size will be a more significant factor, but not to that extent. And good luck finding a small coach-built EV for £150k!

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With double deckers from China reportedly being 25% cheaper than the price of UK produced double deckers,

I am quote sceptical of this quote. My experience from a couple of years ago (so it may be out of date) was that deck prices were very similar irrespective of whether the manufacturers were British, European or Chinese. What tipped the balance were other just as important things which affect the whole-life cost, eg general build quality and reliability, delivery timescales, battery performance and life, and warranties, as well as the after-sales network and availability of parts.

What BYD offer now is claimed unparalleled range with their Blade batteries. I don't know how claimed battery life and warranties stack up, but all these give a competitive advantage if the upfront capital price is no different from other manufacturers.

 

[MotCO]

There is no way that such a price difference exists between a 8.5m bus and a longer one with essentially the same drive train. In the diesel market there's barely any difference. In the EV market obviously battery size will be a more significant factor, but not to that extent. And good luck finding a small coach-built EV for £150k!

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I should have been clearer that these were only indicative numbers , although I would be surprised if a midibus was not around half / two thirds of the cost of a double decker.

 

[Goldfish62]

I should have been clearer that these were only indicative numbers , although I would be surprised if a midibus was not around half / two thirds of the cost of a double decker.

My reference to the profit margin was specifically in respect of small and large versions of essentially the same product.

You'd be surprised at how little difference there is. I'm referring to proper buses, not for example a Mellor Strata.

Ultimately though, there's no set "list price" as such. Manufacturers will quote and negotiate what they think they can get away with at the time, depending on the client.

 

[nick291]

When Wrightbus was having problems, ADL had the market to itself, so it's expected that ADL would lose market share. I think operators have wised up and realised that they don't have to put up with the ADL rattles when they go elsewhere.

I do find it funny how Streetdecks have aged a lot better with time when Wright worked out the kinks whilst every ADL MMC bus I've been on lately old or new has more rattles than a garden shed. I'm curious to see how Yutong's and BYD's hold up in 5-10 years in terms of build quality though.

 

[Richard Scott]

I do find it funny how Streetdecks have aged a lot better with time when Wright worked out the kinks whilst every ADL MMC bus I've been on lately old or new has more rattles than a garden shed. I'm curious to see how Yutong's and BYD's hold up in 5-10 years in terms of build quality though.

The Yutongs I've had misfortune to go on already rattle. One had most horrendous shunt in driveline when moving off from a standing start. Can't say I was impressed with any of them. The 23 year old Trident that's still in the fleet (or whatever it was called in 2002) is a much better bus!

 

[Mrwerdna1]

Just to get this clear, is ADL in any significant trouble? I thought their Enviro400EVs were doing quite well?

 

[Great_Western]

I do find it funny how Streetdecks have aged a lot better with time when Wright worked out the kinks whilst every ADL MMC bus I've been on lately old or new has more rattles than a garden shed. I'm curious to see how Yutong's and BYD's hold up in 5-10 years in terms of build quality though.

The oldest Yutong EV in UK service, YK66 CBC, is already nearing it's 10th birthday and has held up absolutely fine. It still must have decent range too, as today it did a full 12 hour shift on Newport city routes, including a 35 mile plus round trip on the X74 to Chepstow and back.

As with all products coming from China, build quality has come on significantly in the last 15 years. Any bus built there now from a reputable manufacturer will be just as good, if not better than anything the UK, US or Europe can make, even in the long term.

 

[Mikey C]

It does feel that Wrightbus are on a roll, expanding production and their workforce, and investing in new product. The Streetdeck and GB Kite electrics are doing every well in London, whereas ADL have slightly shot themselves in the foot with the lateness of the integral E200EV and E400EV, and dumping the BYD partnership.

Indeed part of the problem is that their previous partnership with BYD gave operators plenty of experience with BYD chassis, and that after the divorce, many of them will stick with BYD.

 

[nick291]

It does feel that Wrightbus are on a roll, expanding production and their workforce, and investing in new product. The Streetdeck and GB Kite electrics are doing every well in London, whereas ADL have slightly shot themselves in the foot with the lateness of the integral E200EV and E400EV, and dumping the BYD partnership.

Doesn't help that they've decided to pause Plaxton coach building in Scarborough either.

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The Yutongs I've had misfortune to go on already rattle. One had most horrendous shunt in driveline when moving off from a standing start. Can't say I was impressed with any of them. The 23 year old Trident that's still in the fleet (or whatever it was called in 2002) is a much better bus!

Can't beat a Trident! But I was referring to the Enviro MMC specifically, none I've been on around my way has held up particularly well and it feels like one bump could just make the body disintegrate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2025 ==

The oldest Yutong EV in UK service, YK66 CBC, is already nearing it's 10th birthday and has held up absolutely fine. It still must have decent range too, as today it did a full 12 hour shift on Newport city routes, including a 35 mile plus round trip on the X74 to Chepstow and back.

As with all products coming from China, build quality has come on significantly in the last 15 years. Any bus built there now from a reputable manufacturer will be just as good, if not better than anything the UK, US or Europe can make, even in the long term.

The few Yutong's I have been on in service have been excellent in terms of ride quality. Maybe didn't like the hard seats too much but that could be down to the individual operator more than anything.

 

[Mollman]

Just to get this clear, is ADL in any significant trouble? I thought their Enviro400EVs were doing quite well?

They are not in significant trouble, however the owner NFI obviously feels that there are adjustments to be made to help longer term sustainability

 

[Goldfish62]

The few Yutong's I have been on in service have been excellent in terms of ride quality. Maybe didn't like the hard seats too much but that could be down to the individual operator more than anything.

Unfortunately with Yutong, like Mercedes, you have to have their seat. That's not the case with BYD, where I believe the usual options are available.

 

[Hyebone]

I thought their Enviro400EVs were doing quite well?

The ones we've had at Chesterfield depot have been nothing short of shocking. From critical brake failure to the front end being far too low.

 

[EnviroExplorer]

Unfortunately with Yutong, like Mercedes, you have to have their seat. That's not the case with BYD, where I believe the usual options are available.

There has been a few exceptions with Yutong with different seats. Newport Bus have theirs with Civics and TrawsCymru have some with coach style seating. I was under the impression seats were installed here in the UK at the Pelican facility too.

 

[Goldfish62]

There has been a few exceptions with Yutong with different seats. Newport Bus have theirs with Civics and TrawsCymru have some with coach style seating. I was under the impression seats were installed here in the UK at the Pelican facility too.

Interesting, thanks. First Bus are using Yutong seats in all their buses, despite their current standard seat being the Isri Civic V3. Same with Stagecoach, who would normally opt for Lazzerini or Kiel.

 

[Fin447]

I travelled onboard a new Stagecoach Yutong electric the other day, I found they had different, more comfortable, seats and better placed bells than the older 2021-2023 Leicester Yutongs. I'm not sure if that's just a difference in operator spec or a change by Yutong.

 

[Goldfish62]

I travelled onboard a new Stagecoach Yutong electric the other day, I found they had different, more comfortable, seats and better placed bells than the older 2021-2023 Leicester Yutongs. I'm not sure if that's just a difference in operator spec or a change by Yutong.

I've just had a look at the Yutong website and under the specification it specifically lists Yutong high back seats as the only choice so I think that's all you get now. Certainly the First Bus one at the NEC in November had pretty comfy seats.

 

[Snow1964]

I've just had a look at the Yutong website and under the specification it specifically lists Yutong high back seats as the only choice so I think that's all you get now. Certainly the First Bus one at the NEC in November had pretty comfy seats.

Yutong supply most UK buses without seats, to their partner Pelican (in Castleford) who then fit seats in the UK that the Operator chooses. I think some other options eg floor coverings, sound systems and displays are often fitted in UK too depending on operator preference.

To some extent it is supplied to UK as a fully working bare shell, sort of bus equivalent of an unfurnished home.

 

[GusB]

There has been a few exceptions with Yutong with different seats. Newport Bus have theirs with Civics and TrawsCymru have some with coach style seating. I was under the impression seats were installed here in the UK at the Pelican facility too.

This is correct - installation of seats and other gubbins is done at Castleford. See this page on Pelican's website:

Completed in the UK

pelicanyutong.co.uk

Completed in the UK
All Yutong buses are meticulously completed in the UK by Pelican. While the main structure of each vehicle is constructed at Yutong, Pelican takes charge of sourcing and fitting high-value components in the UK.

These components include:
Seating: Designed for optimum comfort and durability.
Passenger Information Systems: State-of-the-art systems for real-time updates.
Destination Displays: Reliable and clear signage for destinations.
CCTV: Comprehensive surveillance systems for enhanced safety.
Fire Suppression Systems: Additional safety measures for fire protection.
Vehicle Commissioning: Final checks and approvals to ensure the vehicle is ready for service in the UK.

 

[joieman]

Unfortunately with Yutong, like Mercedes, you have to have their seat. That's not the case with BYD, where I believe the usual options are available.

Nottingham City Transport's examples have Lazzerini seats.

The examples on order for Kinchbus are supposed to have cantilever seats.

 

[PG]

This is correct - installation of seats and other gubbins is done at Castleford. See this page on Pelican's website:
https://pelicanyutong.co.uk/completed-in-the-uk/

Fire Suppression Systems: Additional safety measures for fire protection.

Is this a legal requirement?

Bus operators are notorious for not buying additional kit if they don't have to, and AFAIK diesel buses aren't fitted with fire suppression systems.

 

[Goldfish62]

Is this a legal requirement?

Bus operators are notorious for not buying additional kit if they don't have to, and AFAIK diesel buses aren't fitted with fire suppression systems.

TfL-spec diesels have had fire-suppression equipment fitted for the past couple of decades, both new buses and retrofits.

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Nottingham City Transport's examples have Lazzerini seats.

The examples on order for Kinchbus are supposed to have cantilever seats.

Thanks.

 

[mm3309219x]

The Yutong single deckers can definitely be fitted with the operator's choice of seats, however all their currently delivered double deckers are fitted with the "stock" Yutong seats so I'm not certain if it's either the operator's choice or if they can not be customised.

While their single deckers are decent vehicles overall, I feel like there's still some room for improvement for their double decker, it's based on an older design and I feel like they have made too many compromises on the interior, the lower deck is quite cramped towards the rear like the BYD E400EV and there's a small step towards the rear of the upper deck as well.

 

[joieman]

While their single deckers are decent vehicles overall, I feel like there's still some room for improvement for their double decker, it's based on an older design and I feel like they have made too many compromises on the interior, the lower deck is quite cramped towards the rear like the BYD E400EV and there's a small step towards the rear of the upper deck as well.

A step at the back upstairs, how very peculiar!

 

[GusB]

Is this a legal requirement?

Bus operators are notorious for not buying additional kit if they don't have to, and AFAIK diesel buses aren't fitted with fire suppression systems.

I don't know if it's a legal requirement, or even if it's fitted as standard. It could be that it's just an option.

 

[dmncf]

A step at the back upstairs, how very peculiar!

The Yutong U11DD double decker doesn't have spiral staircase, but nor is it a fully straight staircase: it has a diagonal step near the top of the staircase. I'm sure this is among the reasons that there are none in TfL service.

 

[Goldfish62]

The Yutong U11DD double decker doesn't have spiral staircase, but nor is it a fully straight staircase: it has a diagonal step near the top of the staircase. I'm sure this is among the reasons that there are none in TfL service.

Plus the shape of the front, which is completely non-compliant.

 

[joieman]

Plus the shape of the front, which is completely non-compliant.

Does that go for Yutong's single-deckers as well?