Jumping Barrier Incident

[matthewjohnson]

At Birmingham New Street earlier. Scanned my ticket to go through to catch a train and before I had even moved to go through, this bloke barges through the other way. Taken aback, and after giving him a mouthful for getting in my way, it took me a few seconds to realise what he was doing, when I immediately informed the staff on the barrier, who must have seen it as there was only me, him and another woman there. Nothing we can do, was the response. So there you go, if you want to fare dodge, Birmingham New Street is apparently a free for all.

 

[stadler]

At Birmingham New Street earlier. Scanned my ticket to go through to catch a train and before I had even moved to go through, this bloke barges through the other way. Taken aback, and after giving him a mouthful for getting in my way, it took me a few seconds to realise what he was doing, when I immediately informed the staff on the barrier, who must have seen it as there was only me, him and another woman there. Nothing we can do, was the response. So there you go, if you want to fare dodge, Birmingham New Street is apparently a free for all.

This sort of thing is very common. It is not just a Birmingham New Street thing. It happens all over the country. Go to any major London Underground station or any major National Rail station in the London area and you will see dozens of people just force the barriers open. Some just push through with other people who have already put their ticket in but most just force the barriers open. I never see staff challenge them even when they are standing there and witnessing it. I think staff are told not to intervene or challenge them. I suppose there is a risk of these people being aggressive so it is best to just ignore it and let them fare evade.

 

[RJ]

At Birmingham New Street earlier. Scanned my ticket to go through to catch a train and before I had even moved to go through, this bloke barges through the other way. Taken aback, and after giving him a mouthful for getting in my way, it took me a few seconds to realise what he was doing, when I immediately informed the staff on the barrier, who must have seen it as there was only me, him and another woman there. Nothing we can do, was the response. So there you go, if you want to fare dodge, Birmingham New Street is apparently a free for all.

A lot of the network is a free for all, with an enforcement by consent system in place. What do you expect the barrier staff to do? Chase these people, physically apprehend them? It’s quite sensible for them not to take the risk.

Without support from the police there isn’t much that can be done - that’s something that’s up to the TOCs to arrange. In the meantime don’t let it bother you.

 

[saismee]

I suppose there is a risk of these people being aggressive so it is best to just ignore it and let them fare evade.

It is not worth it for gateline staff to risk their lives for (very close to) minimum wage. The people shoving/hopping are the ones who have no shame in being seen, so are more likely to lash out at staff. The staff are trained to avoid conflict for this reason. While I'd say I don't see the point of staff if they don't do anything to stop fare evaders, the barriers themselves must certainly do a good job of it and the staff have to be there to keep the gateline safe to use. I still think more stations should have consistent RPI/BTP presence, but there just isn't enough funding to cover it.

 

[aftv]

Had someone try to do this to me on one of the Mainline gatelines at Euston once. Luckily there was a proactive member of gateline staff who stopped me and thus stopped someone tailgating me. It did make me think I'd done something wrong until they explained the situation :0

 

[jamesst]

We live in a world where the staff are told not to intervene and if they did the toc and btp would go after the staff member not the jumper.

 

[virgintrain1]

I know unpopular opinion but as a society we all need to challenge criminal behaviour. Gateline staff have the legal powers to use force. I appreciate exiting a station is harder to challenge/police but anyone entering a station should 100% be challenged and if you are unable to physically stop them you follow them to the train to alert the guard. It's a lot easier in my experience to defend people boarding my train rather than having to physically remove them off once already sat down etc. I'm lucky my TOC backs it's staff to make sensible risk assesments with each situation rather than one that explicitly prevents it's staff from using their legal powers.

Maybe given gateline are never generally single staffed we should have one regular gateline member paired with one security guard. Florence Station in Italy the gateline staff were backed up with security with Glocks.

It's the same as some shop security not physically stopping shop lifters. If everyone feels they can't challenge just in case xyz it's Broken Windows Theory.

We live in a world where the staff are told not to intervene and if they did the toc and btp would go after the staff member not the jumper.

Can you provide any evidence of the latter?

 

[Snow1964]

Without support from the police there isn’t much that can be done - that’s something that’s up to the TOCs to arrange. In the meantime don’t let it bother you.

That's the problem it annoys and bothers those who have paid their fares as they see it as not clamping down on crime, and nothing being done.

It's a if they are blatantly allowed to get away with it, then why should I pay too irritation. Bad for morale of the law abiding customer.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is not a criticism of the staff, who aren’t paid enough to put up with the potential violence of challenge, but we really do live in a demoralised society which is very vulnerable now to wholesale reactionary change.

 

[Mawkie]

Some people obviously have very short memories. It's not even 6 months ago that Jorge Ortega was attacked and killed on the gateline at Illford Station and passengers are still asking "Why don't you do something about xxx?"

The answer is a simple one: I'm not getting murdered for a few pounds of someone else's money!

 

[jon0844]

Travel safe officers can stop people entering a station but not leaving. The key is to have more of them who can block a path or even physically remove offenders.

Only by doing this more frequently might we see a change in attitude and less TikTok videos brazenly telling people just push through because staff won't stop you (likewise telling people they can steal from shops on the same basis).

TSOs wear protective clothing and are suitably trained, but there is of course a risk. But it has to happen before society entirely breaks down.

 

[3RDGEN]

At Birmingham New Street earlier. Scanned my ticket to go through to catch a train and before I had even moved to go through, this bloke barges through the other way. Taken aback, and after giving him a mouthful for getting in my way, it took me a few seconds to realise what he was doing, when I immediately informed the staff on the barrier, who must have seen it as there was only me, him and another woman there. Nothing we can do, was the response. So there you go, if you want to fare dodge, Birmingham New Street is apparently a free for all.

The gateline is likely to have CCTV coverage so make a note of time and date then text BTP the details, make comment that the ticket barrier staff where advised. BTP are unlikely to do anything but at least you have done what you can.

 

[357]

Can you provide any evidence of the latter?

I recently was assaulted by someone trying to push through a staff gate as I was closing it, and the BTP officers present weren't interested, after I sarcastically said "thanks for your help" they treated me as a security risk as I didn't have my lanyard on (but was in full uniform).

I made a formal complaint to BTP about the incident, and after initial resistance to even deal with the issue, if transpired that strangely neither of the two officers involved or the Sargent who I later spoke to recorded any of the interaction on their body-worn cameras.

They then NFA'd my allegation of assault as they didn't have the right email for me - however they were able to find my email address to tell me they won't do anything about my complaint or even apologise as there's no evidence of what was said.

It's one of the many reasons I along with many other staff have absolutely no time for BTP.

Maybe given gateline are never generally single staffed

Lol what? Where are you traveling?

 

[pitdiver]

As an ex LUL station supervisor I would never stand in the way and I would tell my staff to do the same. I knew of an incident where a member of LUL chased a fare evader out of the station and round the corner only to be confronted with the evader wielding a knife.
We weren't paid to put our lives on the line (pardon the pun).

 

[jon0844]

Staff should be counting the number of push throughs and reporting, then letting others work out a strategy on how to deal with the issue - either with specialist staff (like TSOs) or a block with BTP in attendance.

There's also the hope that someone pushing through is dealt with on a train - where it is more likely possible to arrange for the police to meet a train if they're not cooperative. Police rarely want to arrest but the threat of arrest can at least result in details being given for prosecution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some people obviously have very short memories. It's not even 6 months ago that Jorge Ortega was attacked and killed on the gateline at Illford Station and passengers are still asking "Why don't you do something about xxx?"

The answer is a simple one: I'm not getting murdered for a few pounds of someone else's money!

The railway needs to employ people specifically to take that risk. There's a huge industry of them; every nightclub has at least one.

This is not a criticism of the staff, who aren’t paid enough to put up with the potential violence of challenge, but we really do live in a demoralised society which is very vulnerable now to wholesale reactionary change.

I totally agree. Since COVID we have been rapidly transitioning into a low trust society, and the only way I think we can get back where we should be is strict zero tolerance enforcement. Sad to say it but the Merseyrail approach needs rolling out across the network urgently, with prosecutions for even the most minor antisocial behaviour.

I didn't think that even a couple of years ago, but it is now beyond a joke, having moved on from young lads trying it on to genuine, true maliciousness.

 

[Sonic1234]

details being given for prosecution.

Details of a "friend" or a non existant person, or for some of the people I see pushing through barriers they probably don't have details to give. A lot of these people are bold enough to even give false details to police, or to run away. Physical strength and speed does not tend to be something they lack (hence reinforcing barriers does very little). A criminal record is unlikely to be a threat either.

It's the middle class compliant student who let their railcard expire that's at risk on the railway. Aggressive or sneaky behaviour is rewarded.

 

[Bensonby]

I posted a thread about this from a police-perspective a few years ago: I was off duty on the way home from work when someone tried to double up behind me. I identified myself as a police officer and detained the individual and presented him to rail staff asking what they wanted done, such as whether they wanted to charge him a (penalty) fare, or wanted to take his details for their prosecution team. They weren't interested in the slightest - so I wondered why I bothered putting myself on offer off-duty if the staff don't want anything done if I do take action.

 

[Sonic1234]

They weren't interested in the slightest - so I wondered why I bothered putting myself on offer off-duty if the staff don't want anything done if I do take action.

A lot of the gateline staff are agency staff. They have been told to avoid conflict and not put themselves at risk. It's not their money they're protecting, or even their direct employer's money. Why bother for a £2 Oyster fare? There's no motivation for anything that poses a little bit of difficulty.

 

[43066]

Travel safe officers can stop people entering a station but not leaving. The key is to have more of them who can block a path or even physically remove offenders.

Only by doing this more frequently might we see a change in attitude and less TikTok videos brazenly telling people just push through because staff won't stop you (likewise telling people they can steal from shops on the same basis).

TSOs wear protective clothing and are suitably trained, but there is of course a risk. But it has to happen before society entirely breaks down.

Really it would he better if the BTP presence could be beefed up. TOC staff detaining people is less than ideal, and law enforcement should be undertaken by the appropriate agency.

It's the middle class compliant student who let their railcard expire that's at risk on the railway. Aggressive or sneaky behaviour is rewarded.

The fact some people are brazen and push through barriers isn’t really a reason not to enforce rules when it is possible to do so, though.

I posted a thread about this from a police-perspective a few years ago: I was off duty on the way home from work when someone tried to double up behind me. I identified myself as a police officer and detained the individual and presented him to rail staff asking what they wanted done, such as whether they wanted to charge him a (penalty) fare, or wanted to take his details for their prosecution team. They weren't interested in the slightest - so I wondered why I bothered putting myself on offer off-duty if the staff don't want anything done if I do take action.

The gate line staff aren’t in a position to do anything. You’ll notice that BTP tend to work with revenue inspectors in coordinated revenue blocks to prevent people leaving without giving details.

Why bother for a £2 Oyster fare? There's no motivation for anything that poses a little bit of difficulty.

Not just “a little bit of difficulty” - the very real risk of being verbally abused, assaulted or worse. Absolutely not worth it for a bunked fare, as you say.

 

[zwk500]

The railway needs to employ people specifically to take that risk. There's a huge industry of them; every nightclub has at least one.

I don't think Nightclub bouncers are signing up for corrosive substance attacks. However the railway is obviously well aware of the security industry given how regularly people with the armbands appear around stations.

Fare dodging isn't the only place there's been a complete free-for-all though. You can see it in road use, shoplifting, and so on. The police don't have the resources and society as a general seems to have got a lot more entitled.

 

[RJ]

It's the middle class compliant student who let their railcard expire that's at risk on the railway. Aggressive or sneaky behaviour is rewarded.

What's compliant about using a discount one isn't entitled to? Plenty of people are let off under discretion and sometimes aggressive people are out of luck and do get done.

 

[saismee]

Staff should be counting the number of push throughs and reporting, then letting others work out a strategy on how to deal with the issue - either with specialist staff (like TSOs) or a block with BTP in attendance.

Statistics might just be one of the best solutions here. Proving that its an issue by recording the time of each incident will provide the necessary information to allocate BTP or revenue staff to stations that currently don't have any consistent revenue protection.

 

[Sonic1234]

What's compliant about using a discount one isn't entitled to

Compliant as in obeyed the requests of the RPI, didn't try to run off, didn't get abusive or aggressive, gave correct details when asked.

 

[jon0844]

Statistics might just be one of the best solutions here. Proving that its an issue by recording the time of each incident will provide the necessary information to allocate BTP or revenue staff to stations that currently don't have any consistent revenue protection.

Many TOCs do just that. People could report every incident individually, but that takes a lot of time. Some now just ask how many people pushed through in any given hour, shift, day or whatever. That gives the same data with a lot less fuss.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I am slightly surprised that barriers don’t somehow record when they have been ‘forced’ when no valid ticket has been detected.

Some relatively general software (I.e. applicable at multiple stations) might time-stamp the local CCTV recording. Soon be able to pick up patterns of time of day or appearance of individuals if it’s a regular thing.

Everyone seems to be talking about ‘harnessing AI’ these days. Seems like an ideal application.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am slightly surprised that barriers don’t somehow record when they have been ‘forced’ when no valid ticket has been detected.

An alarm generally sounds if you do.

 

[Edsmith]

I see this sort of thing regularly at many locations around London, they know they'll get away with it.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I’ve been walking behind individuals at one particular LU/Overground station and can reasonably accurately predict the ‘pushers’. On one occasion, somebody sped up in order to be right behind me for a tailgate ride, so I just said ‘if you’re in a rush, go ahead’. He then forced his way through the gate, of course.

 

[BJames]

I see this sort of thing regularly at many locations around London, they know they'll get away with it.

Me too - although there was a revenue block on at Seven Sisters the other week (with a lot of revenue staff) and my pass didn't even get checked because each inspector was tied up with a fare evader! Admittedly quite satisfying to see what seemed to be a successful block with security and BTP there, although it is interesting to hear of the lack of effectiveness of the BTP above. I think Seven Sisters is a bit of a hotspot - just anecdotally but a majority of days that I travel through there, I see someone pushing the barriers, and a member of staff working at the station told me once that it's just completely crime-ridden.