Anti-social behaviour between Bristol and Taunton

[jonb]

What kind of issues are they causing?

Not sure unfortunately, just noticed it in a log item created earlier in the day

 

[Ashley Hill]

What kind of issues are they causing?

Bridgewater station currently has no windows. Digby & Sowton waiting shelter smashed (yes they travel too), break into IET kitchens and trolley stores, verbally abuse and intimidate passengers and staff, let off fire extinguishers, pull passcoms/egresses and carry on in gay abandon knowing they are too young to be arrested or charged. Oh ,and they don’t pay. The list is not exhaustive. And that’s just on the railways.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Bridgewater station currently has no windows. Digby & Sowton waiting shelter smashed (yes they travel too), break into IET kitchens and trolley stores, verbally abuse and intimidate passengers and staff, let off fire extinguishers, pull passcoms/egresses and carry on in gay abandon knowing they are too young to be arrested or charged. Oh ,and they don’t pay. The list is not exhaustive. And that’s just on the railways.

Don't BTP get staff on the trains if there are known times when there is likely to be trouble? In some areas they do this - one particular train out of Leeds on a Friday evening a few years ago always had BTP on it to stop anything kicking off.

The age of criminal responsibility is 10, so if they are over that then they can be charged.

 

[Gostav]

The age of criminal responsibility is 10, so if they are over that then they can be charged.

In practice, minors are likely to be imprisoned only if the crime is serious enough, such as murder or arson causing serious property damage.

 

[Towers]

This is, regretfully, just the inevitable realisation of the society that we have built for ourselves (as a nation, collectively) - no authority, no deterrent, no respect. It is mercifully rare for it to manifest itself quite so persistently in one place for quite so long, but of course the railway is a vast and open playground for anyone so inclined. I believe somebody has already made mention of the similar ‘Guildford youths’ of pre-Covid infamy, which was exactly the same thing.

The railway will always find these types gravitating towards it, for various reasons. Arguably the existing levels of protection and enforcement need re-examination at an industry level, assuming the nation doesn’t plan to do anything else in the meantime to sort out our societal issues.

 

[contrex]

This is, regretfully, just the inevitable realisation of the society that we have built for ourselves (as a nation, collectively) - no authority, no deterrent, no r

Crime and misbehaviour on the railways has been striking horror into the souls of 'respectable' people since railways began.

19th century crime at railway stations

Wednesday 2 May 2018, 14:00 Britain on film: Railways Horatio Holland was only ten years old when he received 12 strokes of the birch on his bare back in 1867. This was not some bullying incident at an inner city school: it was justice as seen by Borough Justices Joseph Bateson and Edwin Erwin...

blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk

 

[bramling]

Don't BTP get staff on the trains if there are known times when there is likely to be trouble? In some areas they do this - one particular train out of Leeds on a Friday evening a few years ago always had BTP on it to stop anything kicking off.

The age of criminal responsibility is 10, so if they are over that then they can be charged.

The latter is a bit of a joke unfortunately. The police aren’t really interested in young people causing problems on transport.

So you’re essentially left with “what are you going to do?”, or else staff take matters into their own hands, at which point there would no doubt be a flood of posts on here about how awful it is for staff to be “assaulting” children once the inevitable video appears on TikTok.

 

[Benjwri]

Vandalism also obviously isn't just a transportation thing. Plenty of stolen signs and broken windows everywhere else.

 

[sheff1]

The police aren’t really interested in young people causing problems on transport.

So, again, why are we continually being told if we “Say it” it will be “Sorted” if the police are not interested in sorting it.

 

[fgwrich]

So, again, why are we continually being told if we “Say it” it will be “Sorted” if the police are not interested in sorting it.

So, again. Your being asked to report it which will help the police build a big picture about what is happening, where it is happening and what time it is happening. Just because you don’t see as many officers on the ground doesn’t mean to say something isn’t being worked on behind the scenes. And I refer you back to my previous comments - some stations have to run on a minimum (usually about 4). A place like Temple Meads will have to be staffed 24/7 unless something big comes in, so it could result in 1 or 2 being available to go elsewhere. You want more BTP, then you need to accept that fare rises would be part of the course.

Like many incidents where the public sees their side of it, it doesn’t mean to say that the Police and associated partner agencies aren’t interested in it not coming up with a spoliation to tackle it. Every call builds a bigger picture.

 

[Benjwri]

So, again. Your being asked to report it which will help the police build a big picture about what is happening, where it is happening and what time it is happening. Just because you don’t see as many officers on the ground doesn’t mean to say something isn’t being worked on behind the scenes. And I refer you back to my previous comments - some stations have to run on a minimum (usually about 4). A place like Temple Meads will have to be staffed 24/7 unless something big comes in, so it could result in 1 or 2 being available to go elsewhere. You want more BTP, then you need to accept that fare rises would be part of the course.

Like many incidents where the public sees their side of it, it doesn’t mean to say that the Police and associated partner agencies aren’t interested in it not coming up with a spoliation to tackle it. Every call builds a bigger picture.

No matter how well funded BTP was, within reason, this would be difficult to sort by uniformed presence. We can’t have officers at every station, and they’ve shown to be a mobile group targetting multiple locations. Station officers at Bridgwater and they’ll just go somewhere else, and then you’ve pulled officers away from bigger hotspots for crime for no reason. This would always be something that requires more ‘back office’ work, and we simply do not know what’s being done.

 

[fgwrich]

No matter how well funded BTP was, within reason, this would be difficult to sort by uniformed presence. We can’t have officers at every station, and they’ve shown to be a mobile group targetting multiple locations. Station officers at Bridgwater and they’ll just go somewhere else, and then you’ve pulled officers away from bigger hotspots for crime for no reason. This would always be something that requires more ‘back office’ work, and we simply do not know what’s being done.

Exactly so. This is why such an issue needs a joint multi agency approach and not solely a BTP approach. The same individuals will likely be known to organisations in each town (potentially ASB etc) and therefore positioning a BTP officer at the station would just end up in the issues being driven into town.

 

[bramling]

So, again, why are we continually being told if we “Say it” it will be “Sorted” if the police are not interested in sorting it.

To be fair, this isn’t just down to the police, but the whole justice system. When we have situations where you can have a 15-year-old girl throwing beer over other passengers and the BTP response is merely to take the said girl home, then there really isn’t much point in anything.

 

[nanstallon]

Crime and misbehaviour on the railways has been striking horror into the souls of 'respectable' people since railways began.

19th century crime at railway stations

Wednesday 2 May 2018, 14:00 Britain on film: Railways Horatio Holland was only ten years old when he received 12 strokes of the birch on his bare back in 1867. This was not some bullying incident at an inner city school: it was justice as seen by Borough Justices Joseph Bateson and Edwin Erwin...

blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Perhaps the birch should be brought back; it is all that these idiots understand. But I have long ago given up on Britain.

 

[sheff1]

So, again. Your being asked to report it which will help the police build a big picture about what is happening, where it is happening and what time it is happening.

The post to which I replied said that the police were not interested in such things. If so, they are hardly likely to be spending time building a big picture.

To be fair, this isn’t just down to the police, but the whole justice system. When we have situations where you can have a 15-year-old girl throwing beer over other passengers and the BTP response is merely to take the said girl home, then there really isn’t much point in anything.

My point exactly, why keep pointlessly telling us it will be “Sorted” when evidence shows it won’t be.

 

[bramling]

The post to which I replied said that the police were not interested in such things. If so, they are hardly likely to be spending time building a big picture.

Agreed. They can build as bigger picture as they want, but reality is this isn’t going to help solve this sort of thing. A lot of this antisocial behaviour is likely to involve minors from problematic backgrounds, which unfortunately becomes a minefield when anyone tries to deal with it. It’s only when someone gets seriously hurt does it become something that the system is actually able to effectively deal with, and even then it remains a minefield.

What might be seen as unfortunate is that if someone gives these people some kind of hiding, you’re more likely to find action being taken about that. Hence why it just gets left in the “too difficult” box.

My point exactly, why keep pointlessly telling us it will be “Sorted” when evidence shows it won’t be.

The whole see it say it sorted thing is more aimed at security than crime. Whether it’s any more effective on that score is a matter for debate.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The post to which I replied said that the police were not interested in such things. If so, they are hardly likely to be spending time building a big picture.


My point exactly, why keep pointlessly telling us it will be “Sorted” when evidence shows it won’t be.

The endless whining about "See it. Say it. Sorted" is more tiresome than the announcements themselves.

BTP, like all police forces, will use reports of crime to build up a bigger picture and make decisions on how and where to deploy their limited resources. Just because something isn't sorted first time, doesn't mean it never will be.

 

[Quincy]

Went through Bridgewater station this weekend end it was all bordered up, apparently some kids went through and smashed all the windows, surely something needs to be done if it’s this bad. Also i noticed surrounding stations had security guards… which isn’t exactly something you’d expect at a train station

 

[GoneSouth]

I think what we need to do is gather up all these young people and give them all one hell of a motivational speech, then take them on an adventure holiday of a lifetime, take them back home to mum and dad and tell them what a cracking job they’ve done at parenting and then promise the kids there’ll be a nice new build house waiting for them when they’re ready to leave the parents. Tell them not to worry about working for a living, that’s somebody else’s problem. When they go too far, maybe put them in prison hotel for a couple of weeks where they can learn lots of new tricks and ways not to fit into society and then hit repeat for 30 years before they become rehabilitated and become the ones doing the motivational speaking to the next generations of lost souls.

Edit: Oops, got the parenting bit wrong, obviously there’s no dad involved, they’ve usually cleared off long before the teenage crime spree so I conclude that dads are blameless in this scenario.

 

[nanstallon]

What a pathetic country Britain is. Maybe the do-gooders are the main problem.

 

[TPO]

I think what we need to do is gather up all these young people and give them all one hell of a motivational speech, then take them on an adventure holiday of a lifetime, take them back home to mum and dad and tell them what a cracking job they’ve done at parenting and then promise the kids there’ll be a nice new build house waiting for them when they’re ready to leave the parents. Tell them not to worry about working for a living, that’s somebody else’s problem. When they go too far, maybe put them in prison hotel for a couple of weeks where they can learn lots of new tricks and ways not to fit into society and then hit repeat for 30 years before they become rehabilitated and become the ones doing the motivational speaking to the next generations of lost souls.

Edit: Oops, got the parenting bit wrong, obviously there’s no dad involved, they’ve usually cleared off long before the teenage crime spree so I conclude that dads are blameless in this scenario.

Whilst I recognise this is tongue-in-cheek, there's some truth in there.

In the late 1970's and early 1980's, my dad was an outdoor instructor/teacher, part of a team that took kids from the toughest schools in Tyneside to the Lake District on Outward Bound courses.

It was tough love- clear boundaries, strict discipline, boys only- and a range of physically challenging activities. Many of the toughest kids got the most out of it, begged to come back again and again. For the first time in their lives they had clear boundaries and a proper place where they could pitch their physical masculinity. (No surprise that historically the infantry in the army had a large proportioon of lads from the toughest northern estates).

Couldn't do that now, and that's the issue. Young males with bubbling testosterone need a combination of clear boundaries (and proper consequences if they breach them) and the opportunity to "prove" themselves as men- often physically. Traditional societites tend ot managethis better than we do, and if it's not happening in society, they will find another way..... remember the original Boy Scouts was built on the tendency for young lads to want to belong to peer groups (gangs- became the prototype patrols) and the whole underpinning concept of Scouting was to channel and direct the natural impulses in a healthy way and encourage growth- phycial, mental and spiritual.

Also we need a place where such youth can go to work- learn their place in and respect from society as productive part of it (The Alex Glasgow song "The Tyne Rolls By" come to mind) and also be able to use physical abilities- and have respect for such work- rather than doing desk work..... I am not sure that closing old "loss-making" heavy industry actually was sensible given the long-term costs in unemployment and crime that follow.

We also live in an era where the concept of boundaries and consequences of breaching them are effectively absent, and there's no real channel for male physicality. Bring back and enforce behavioural boundaries, reintroduce unfashionable ideas such as "chivalry" (i.e. the strong defend the weak rather than preying on them) and we'd be on the way to sorting the problems.

Consequences; it's all about consequences. And in defence of the BTP, what point in the apprehending the miscreants when even if the case goes to court, there will be little consequence on their actions. Perhaps smashing up an equivalent value of the miscreants possessions as punishment (starting with their phone) would be far more educational than probation or prison .

TPO

 

[Gloster]

Whilst I recognise this is tongue-in-cheek, there's some truth in there.

In the late 1970's and early 1980's, my dad was an outdoor instructor/teacher, part of a team that took kids from the toughest schools in Tyneside to the Lake District on Outward Bound courses.

It was tough love- clear boundaries, strict discipline, boys only- and a range of physically challenging activities. Many of the toughest kids got the most out of it, begged to come back again and again. For the first time in their lives they had clear boundaries and a proper place where they could pitch their physical masculinity. (No surprise that historically the infantry in the army had a large proportioon of lads from the toughest northern estates).

Couldn't do that now, and that's the issue. Young males with bubbling testosterone need a combination of clear boundaries (and proper consequences if they breach them) and the opportunity to "prove" themselves as men- often physically. Traditional societites tend ot managethis better than we do, and if it's not happening in society, they will find another way..... remember the original Boy Scouts was built on the tendency for young lads to want to belong to peer groups (gangs- became the prototype patrols) and the whole underpinning concept of Scouting was to channel and direct the natural impulses in a healthy way and encourage growth- phycial, mental and spiritual.

Also we need a place where such youth can go to work- learn their place in and respect from society as productive part of it (The Alex Glasgow song "The Tyne Rolls By" come to mind) and also be able to use physical abilities- and have respect for such work- rather than doing desk work..... I am not sure that closing old "loss-making" heavy industry actually was sensible given the long-term costs in unemployment and crime that follow.

We also live in an era where the concept of boundaries and consequences of breaching them are effectively absent, and there's no real channel for male physicality. Bring back and enforce behavioural boundaries, reintroduce unfashionable ideas such as "chivalry" (i.e. the strong defend the weak rather than preying on them) and we'd be on the way to sorting the problems.

Consequences; it's all about consequences. And in defence of the BTP, what point in the apprehending the miscreants when even if the case goes to court, there will be little consequence on their actions. Perhaps smashing up an equivalent value of the miscreants possessions as punishment (starting with their phone) would be far more educational than probation or prison .

TPO

The Tyne Slides By? “…but pensions by God.”

 

[Ashley Hill]

Young males with bubbling testosterone need a combination of clear boundaries (and proper consequences if they breach them) and the opportunity to "prove" themselves as men- often physically.

The Bridgewater group also contains many teenage girls.

 

[TPO]

The Tyne Slides By? “…but pensions by God.”

That's the one.

The Bridgewater group also contains many teenage girls.

Doesn't help, can make it worse, males of the species showing off to the females. The station gathering being their lek* in this case.

Perhaps if we admitted our closeness to the rest of the animal kingdom, these things would be easier to understand and address!

TPO

*lek: A lek is an aggregation of male animals gathered to engage in competitive displays and courtship rituals, known as lekking, to entice visiting females which are surveying prospective partners with which to mate (Wikipedia)

 

[Towers]

Crime and misbehaviour on the railways has been striking horror into the souls of 'respectable' people since railways began.

19th century crime at railway stations

Wednesday 2 May 2018, 14:00 Britain on film: Railways Horatio Holland was only ten years old when he received 12 strokes of the birch on his bare back in 1867. This was not some bullying incident at an inner city school: it was justice as seen by Borough Justices Joseph Bateson and Edwin Erwin...

blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk

They have, but most of that was simple theft back in those days. That’s a rather different landscape from orchestrated antisocial behaviour being carried out by gangs of feral youths.

 

[sh24]

Groups of feral kids are not a new phenomenon and they are not unique to "pathetic" Britain. Society has always had this issue, it's just that social media helps promote and give visibility to their actions.

 

[contrex]

Groups of feral kids are not a new phenomenon and they are not unique to "pathetic" Britain. Society has always had this issue, it's just that social media helps promote and give visibility to their actions.

Hansard, 29 May 1876:

CRIMINAL LAW—THROWING STONES AT RAILWAY TRAINS.—QUESTION.​

HL Deb 29 May 1876 vol 229 cc1341-21341

§EARL DE LA WARR
asked, Whether the attention of Her Majesty's Government had been directed to the report of a case in the Salford Borough Police Court, which case was heard on Thursday, May 18? The case was that of a boy who was convicted of having thrown a stone at a railway train. The stationmaster, in his evidence, stated that the company to which the train belonged had received continual complaints that stones were thrown at the trains, that the carriage windows had frequently been broken, and passengers injured in some cases as a result of those acts. Officials, he added, had been specially engaged to apprehend the boys, but had not succeeded in capturing any offender until the present case. The detective superintendent stated that the mischievous practice of throwing stones at railway trains had become very common, and that on the London and North Western and the Lancashire and Yorkshire lines injuries to passengers had resulted. Having heard that evidence, the magistrate inflicted a penalty of half-a-crown, which he thought their Lordships would regard as very inadequate to the offence. If this sentence were to remain unnoticed he feared there would be no protection against a repetition of the offence, which might be attended with serious—perhaps fatal—consequences. He trusted Her Majesty's Government would not allow the inadequacy of the penalty to pass unnoticed.

 

[Chriso]

This depressing story really shows what an absolute s**tshow the BTP and quite frankly the UK is . All these cameras and all probably known by name by the officers yet they continue to get away unpunished. This a disgrace to the poor staff who have to work the route

Shame on you again BTP you really are not worth the investment

 

[Benjwri]

This depressing story really shows what an absolute s**tshow the BTP and quite frankly the UK is . All these cameras and all probably known by name by the officers yet they continue to get away unpunished. This a disgrace to the poor staff who have to work the route

Shame on you again BTP you really are not worth the investment

BTP do what they can with an extremely limited budget. Tackling this kind of thing is extremely hard for any police force, especially in a public way. We have no way of knowing what is being done behind closed doors. As with a lot of things the true blame lies in a lack of funding.

 

[Krokodil]

The other aspect is that things have to get really bad before youth justice will send anything near a court. Even assaults on staff aren't enough.