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Yet that will lead to a significant price increase for people travelling on paper tickets.
Idk about the WCML or Thameslink but the Anytime fares on the GWML are very expensive it would be an overnight doubling of fares via the back door if you harmonised the restrictions, which is grossly unfair
I know the restrictions aren't the easiest, but most people understand that Elizabeth line is unrestricted Vs GWR expresses which are in the evening peak
Seems fairly clear that's not something the government would countenance without extra increases though, because it's saving some journey types a substantial amount of money.
In another thread I was really quite surprised to find that the Liz fares on the route towards Reading are not "Ovalled", i.e. paper tickets are priced and restricted totally differently from contactless.
It would be a bit of a shift, but should these be moved to an Oval style single fare priced structure with the contactless and paper fares the same? It seems strange this wasn't done as part of Liz "go live".
Obviously as with anything else some would pay less and some more, just like the rest of the Oval changes. However it strikes me that this is a genuine simplification and this is therefore worthwhile "collateral damage" as it has been on the WCML.
I can see the logic, but if you extend to Reading, why not Reading West.
It's a question of boundaries, and if you extend one line to 50 miles from London, then what about places like Basingstoke, Haslemere etc. probably would be better to have a definitive boundary of say 20 miles and publicise it that way, rather than extensions on some lines, and others not treated same way.
The only reason to go with a per line system, is historic locations of where trains from London reverse, and most of these locations date back decades from the days of fare rates per mile, so would be very unfair to use these inconsistent locations for new boundaries if they vary in distance from London.
In another thread I was really quite surprised to find that the Liz fares on the route towards Reading are not "Ovalled", i.e. paper tickets are priced and restricted totally differently from contactless.
It would be a bit of a shift, but should these be moved to an Oval style single fare priced structure with the contactless and paper fares the same? It seems strange this wasn't done as part of Liz "go live".
Obviously as with anything else some would pay less and some more, just like the rest of the Oval changes. However it strikes me that this is a genuine simplification and this is therefore worthwhile "collateral damage" as it has been on the WCML.
How was the Ovalisation done?
Did they get rid of peak restrictions or add it to everything
For years and years, slow trains in the evening have been off peak and faster ones peak. This is assuming the ticket is a Return or Travelcard from Reading/Maidenhead to London etc
Take the 1706 from Paddington, off peak tickets can be used, but not on the 1700 etc.
You get into more anomalies, as a ticket to Twyford would be peak and one to Theale would be off peak etc
Does contactless extend to Reading West? If so yes, if not no. The principle is just that in all areas where TfL contactless is accepted, the Oval fares harmonisation should take place.
(TfL contactless probably should reach Reading West at some point though!)
Does contactless extend to Reading West? If so yes, if not no. The principle is just that in all areas where TfL contactless is accepted, the Oval fares harmonisation should take place.
(TfL contactless probably should reach Reading West at some point though!)
I can only comment on the WCML, but we previously had three steps (Anytime, Off Peak which had morning but not evening restrictions and Super Off Peak which had swingeing restrictions (roughly not towards London before 1300 and not from it between 1600-1900, including Saturdays - thus pretty useless apart from evenings out and Sundays).
It was changed to two steps, Anytime and Off Peak. Off Peak has morning restrictions (not before 0930) and evening restrictions away from London only (not between 1600 and 1859, if I recall). It isn't perfectly aligned with contactless for practical reasons (paper is based on departure time, contactless is based on tap-in time, and the restrictions don't quite work the same way if crossing London) but it's as close as it can reasonably get aside from the "0630 anomaly" - i.e. for contactless if you tap in before 0630 you get off peak, whereas for paper it's 0430. I suspect this needs fixing (and will be fixed) on contactless because very large numbers of longer distance commuters do tap in before 0630 - presently this is undercutting season tickets!
Because the Off Peak lost some validity (just going back to what we had pre London Midland, FWIW) it was reduced to a price roughly in between the former Off Peak and Super Off Peak and single fare priced by setting the singles to half the relevant return.
Overall I quite like it. Sometimes I pay more, but some things are utterly bargainous - particularly if going away for more than one day where the old Off Peak Return was quite expensive. And give or take the small anomalies that are hard to fix due to the difference between the two methods of payment, it is genuinely pretty simple compared to what went before.
I've long been aware of this and found it ridiculous given that the short DMUs running the local services were far more overcrowded than the HSTs and later 80x, despite the whining of the Reading mob.
It makes even *less* sense for the Liz to have different restrictions to the entirety of the rest of TfL's network.
Take the 1706 from Paddington, off peak tickets can be used, but not on the 1700 etc.
You get into more anomalies, as a ticket to Twyford would be peak and one to Theale would be off peak etc
For years and years, slow trains in the evening have been off peak and faster ones peak. This is assuming the ticket is a Return or Travelcard from Reading/Maidenhead to London etc
Take the 1706 from Paddington, off peak tickets can be used, but not on the 1700 etc.
You get into more anomalies, as a ticket to Twyford would be peak and one to Theale would be off peak etc
It's a question of boundaries, and if you extend one line to 50 miles from London, then what about places like Basingstoke, Haslemere etc. probably would be better to have a definitive boundary of say 20 miles and publicise it that way, rather than extensions on some lines, and others not treated same way.
So you would get rid of Project Oval despite its obvious benefits? It is clearly going to roll out eventually to most of the former Network SouthEast area.
There are fares to and from Reading to and from a number of stations in the first phase of Project Oval which are 'Ovalised' for Reading and not for Reading West (or Tilehurst typically in the Reading cluster). For those destinations, there are no longer fares to 'Reading Stations'.
Look up fares from Reading and Reading West to Hemel Hempstead for example.
So you would get rid of Project Oval despite its obvious benefits? It is clearly going to roll out eventually to most of the former Network SouthEast area.
No, I would extend it out, but extend in concentric rings, not on line by line basis.
I don't really buy into different pay as you go schemes for London area, West Country, East Midlands, Bristol area etc. Either roll it out nationally so can start and finish anywhere, or don't keep extending non compatible different schemes.
I don't really buy into different pay as you go schemes for London area, West Country, East Midlands, Bristol area etc. Either roll it out nationally so can start and finish anywhere, or don't keep extending non compatible different schemes.
Assuming a direct train (there are complexities regarding changing, as there always would be) yes. Oval restrictions are purely based on when you tap in.
Assuming a direct train (there are complexities regarding changing, as there always would be) yes. Oval restrictions are purely based on when you tap in.
For a direct train the only restriction that applies is the departure of the train. There are no arrival based restrictions on the south WCML Oval fares.
If you have to change in London the paper fares and the contactless ones work slightly differently, which is a bit of an anomaly but again hard to fix (without a million different restriction codes) because of how each system works - it's as close as it reasonably can be.
However, you effectively can't change trains in the evening peak period via London on longer journeys on 'Ovalised' 'paper tickets', which journey planner based ticket purchasing doesn't work well with.
However, you effectively can't change trains in the evening peak period via London on longer journeys on 'Ovalised' 'paper tickets', which journey planner based ticket purchasing doesn't work well with.
Yes, that's because of a classic case of the common "a connecting train may be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" not actually being implementable, and rather than taking the WMT line of accepting the planners miselling higher fares for connecting journeys at certain times they have aligned the two in the only way possible without having a different restriction code for each station.
I would be delighted if the single fares could be reduced to half the current day return, and one could then choose between tickets or PAYG (one may give an off-peak fare and the other not, depending when you're travelling, and sadly TfL have still not solved the problem of PAYG and Network and Two Together Railcards generally, or of PAYG and other Railcards west of West Drayton where Oyster can't be used).
Almost but not quite. On the Didcot semi-fasts, it only becomes peak when it’s first-stop-Maidenhead. There’s one at 16-something that calls at Slough and remains off-peak despite the general restriction coming into force at 1600.
Currently living on this line, I also support @Bletchleyite’s proposal for Ovalisation, as long as it extends to the branches as well. It’s annoying having to remember to tap in if only going one-way (for the single pricing) but buy a paper ticket if coming back (for railcard discount) - and for those less rail-geeky than me, it’s downright confusing.
The answer is, as ever, to check the restriction code where GWR helpfully itemise every departure the ticket is not valid on.
If the service is not listed, the ticket is valid on it.
It would be a bit of a shift, but should these be moved to an Oval style single fare priced structure with the contactless and paper fares the same? It seems strange this wasn't done as part of Liz "go live".
Personally, I have no interest in Oval until TfL's backend can cope with Railcard discounts.
As has been pointed out above, the issue is where do you stop? Tilehurst is in Reading, although it's not part of the group. Same with Reading Green Park.
But if you include them, why wouldn't you include Pangbourne? Or all the way to Basingstoke?
And I don't know how you'd then cope with the evening restrictions, other than just disallowing off-peak entirely (rather than via EL, as is now) which would be pretty retrograde. The way this is generally expressed on departure boards is "off-peak tickets to stations before Swindon are not valid" (Incorrect, but simple).
Worth noting that, despite GWR's protestations, there are lots of Off Peak/Super Off Peak long-distance fares priced to Reading which are valid on GWR departures from Paddington during the evening peak.
Do you have some examples of flows to show where this would improve things?
And I don't know how you'd then cope with the evening restrictions, other than just disallowing off-peak entirely (rather than via EL, as is now) which would be pretty retrograde.
Oval will come with a full evening peak 1600-1900 restriction from Paddington when it is applied, just as applies with Contactless, and the fares from Project Oval origins, now (although Contactless is actually based on first touch in, so travelling for example from Shoeburyness to Reading on Contactless that peak window from Paddington would shift somewhat and a passenger would be better advised to break the Contactless journey somehow).
The Ovalised 'paper' off-peak day single from Hemel Hempstead to Reading is blanket cannot board at any location between 1600 and 1900, without the Elizabeth Line easement and list of Paddington departures.
Yup; hence 'retrograde'.
The 3hr 'evening peak' out of Paddington is a little odd; many of the barred trains are far less busy than the morning equivalents & alternative EL route, so one suspects it's purely a revenue raising scheme.
Yup; hence 'retrograde'.
The 3hr 'evening peak' out of Paddington is a little odd; many of the barred trains are far less busy than the morning equivalents & alternative EL route, so one suspects it's purely a revenue raising scheme.
It is just standardisation based on the 3 hour peak band defined by TfL, which has been a feature of the Oyster / Contactless system almost since it was established. (Initially it was peak 0700-1900 but that soon was abandoned.)
I think, but happy to be corrected, that the theory for off-peak travellers on Contactless, but not the equivalent paper tickets, is that a return journey after 0930 to London does, in practice, get capped at the rate of the relevant off-peak cap, but that cap is Zone 1 centric.
So people in Berkshire on local journeys are now beholden to a cap which is set at a ceiling for journeys inside central London? Doesn't seem to make a lot sense.
Why should people in Berkshire care about a TfL fare band? The Elizabeth Line is a NR TOC - it is not a "tube".
So people in Berkshire on local journeys are now beholden to a cap which is set at a ceiling for journeys inside central London? Doesn't seem to make a lot sense.
This is the sort of thing that happens when the Ministry of Housing and Local Government decides your county doesn't exist anymore (but, oddly, the district of West Berkshire does).
For the same reason the same peak times have been used for the south WCML - because that's what you have to do if you want to go onto the TfL contactless system, of which there are more benefits than downsides.
For the same reason the same peak times have been used for the south WCML - because that's what you have to do if you want to go onto the TfL contactless system, of which there are more benefits than downsides.
That's not really an answer, just reiterating the status quo.
TfL, having been awarded a substantial contract to implement this contactless charging system, seem distinctly uninterested in supporting anything which doesn't fit into 'their model'. For example, Railcards and local zone capping.
Indeed, if you look at the lack of proper DR on the EL and the derisory 'alternative routes' provision during disruption on the Western side, you'd be forgiven for thinking TfL aren't really interested in anything that isn't tube-like and in Greater London.
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