They couldn't have sent them to Southeastern anyway, the DC equipment was long gone and would have been far too expensive to be worth adding back.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement
- Thread starter Robski
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Still a shame they scrapped them after only just finishing the refurbishments 5 years earlier. That would be like if SE scrapped the /9s in 2010.
brad465
Established Member
The 365s biggest problem was their relatively low fleet size. 40 units (41 before Potters Bar) were relatively easy to bin off and also made no sense being spread over 2 operators. Had 80+ 365s existed, with 40 at each of GN and SE, the SE ones could well have survived longer and made the 465/9 conversion unnecessary. What's helped the Networker fleet survive as long as it has, despite issues with reliability and for some poor quality interiors, has been a combination of their vast fleet size and a number of short-term franchise extensions. With 147x 465s and 43x 466s produced, all SE have been able to do is chip away at it until a large new order gets approval, they can't just bin them all off and carry on with virtually no direct replacement, like GN and other operators did during covid for 365s, 455s and 456s.
Aside from the large amount of trains they have, is another reason for why SE have stuck with the Networkers is because the trains were made specifically for them and their routes? (As opposed to the 365s which were shuffled across the NSE successors to Great Northern)
That makes it sound like they have lasted longer than expected, which they haven't yet, being only in their early 30s.
Don't get too hung up on the fleet size being odd or even, there will always be a number on scheduled maintenance or otherwise stopped that renders that theoretical equation irrelevant. As it happens, the current remaining active fleet is 122* 465s and 25 466s (* 50 465/0s, 47 465/1s, 25 465/9s).
As regards the formation you saw, yes it does happen occasionally. It could be a non-critical defect that means the cab concerned needs to be non-driving (so an 'inside' cab), or simply practicalities and available time given the shunting involved in making up the formation for the day. Hope that helps.
Mikey C
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 7,609
If they had been given a proper mid life update like the 455s were, or the related 165s at Chiltern and GWR, then I doubt anybody would be talking about them as if they were ancient.
I often see people hate on the 465s a lot for having broken seat covers or dirty interiors but I never see that on the metro routes. Is this mostly a main line thing?
How can you not see it! I was on one this morning which was as normal seen in a grotty state. Look around the floors, fittings, grills, heating etc. Looks like a clean hasn't been undertaken for years. The 465/0 and /1s are by far the worst though.
Maybe I've just been on them for so long that the "dirty" state they are in is what I'm used to. I don't want to give the seats a tap though any time soon though!
Also I've noticed a lot more older people putting feet on the seats nowadays. What's worse is that one woman I saw kept her feet on the seats during rush hour in a busy carriage. Some people have no sense nowadays.
SEtrains
Member
Sadly more networkers off for scrap on Thursday. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K37058/2025-06-19/detailed
brad465
Established Member
I can't work the system out; last week the drag went in last minute, this week it's in right at the start of the week.
I'm assuming one reason Kingsbury has been used recently is the closure of the Severn Tunnel is reducing capacity to Newport (and the route via Chepstow is more congested as a result).
720_Aventra
Member
Not running from what was said on the Anglia Gen on Facebook (from somebody from ROG said it).
Last edited:
bramling
Veteran Member
The 465/9s were essentially a slam-door replacement. Rather than fully replace the VEP fleet like-for-like with new trains, Connex decided to order some new metro trains instead (the class 376), and refurbish a number of 465/2s for outer-suburban use. Only sufficient numbers were refurbished for that purpose, hence the class 466 and the remaining 465/2s weren’t touched.
brad465
Established Member
SE ordered 36x 376s, and the number of 9s refurbished was 34. The 466s were probably unnecessary hassle to refurbish and alternated between metro and mainline a lot more than the 465/9s did, plus only being 2-cars meant a first class area would have been a waste of space, especially when coupled to a /9 which provided this. I believe Connex worked out the Networker acceleration made them ideal on certain mainline routes with frequent stops (e.g. Maidstone East line), but didn't go to the trouble of platform extensions at many places, limiting their length to 6-car on a number of routes.
The VEPs went 38 years before they ended service. As of right now the (earlier) 465s have spent 33 years in service. 5 years really doesn't seem that long for both SE's mystery train order to be fulfilled and for the Networkers to go away. I wonder if someone will make an EMU heritage railway somewhere in London one day for them.
Assuming 1 train is made up of 4 carriages, this is 87 to 160 new trains, which I really can't see being built in 5 years, although given its not been announced which companies are taking the offer up it will be a shorter time period.
Speaking of platform extensions, I have yet to see a 12 car train stop on the Hayes line despite there being 12-car markers. Are they there just in case?
brad465
Established Member
There are two things restricting 12-car formations in this context: firstly not enough Networker units exist to make a large number of 12-car formations, second, Charing X P4-6 (except with SDO) and some stabling points can't take 12-cars. These days 12-car diagrams can be found on most Sevenoaks-CHX stoppers and a few morning DFD-CHX via Bexleyheath services. 12-cars on other routes will usually be in last-minute/engineering work cases.
Last edited by a moderator:
Robin Edwards
Member
- Joined
- 1 Dec 2013
- Messages
- 527
Today's Class 37 from Derby to Ely is showing cancelled so this Gen seems to be correct.
99009
Member
Network Rail have sent out this press release today.
www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk
Of interest to this thread is the quote that there are plans to "modernise the rolling stock on the Metro service to deliver more accessible and passenger-focused journeys."
I quote this because modernise doesn't necessarily mean new trains, so it leaves the door open entirely to additional cascaded stock from elsewhere (instead of new build), presumably in addition to the already cascading 377/1's.
Great British Railways in action – passengers benefit from track and train being united on South Eastern Railway
Southeastern and Network Rail unite to operate under a single, more efficient leadership team known as South Eastern Railway Under public ownership Southeastern are delivering some of the lowest cancellation rates nationally and have forecast a £50m reduction in taxpayer subsidy South Eastern...
www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk
Of interest to this thread is the quote that there are plans to "modernise the rolling stock on the Metro service to deliver more accessible and passenger-focused journeys."
I quote this because modernise doesn't necessarily mean new trains, so it leaves the door open entirely to additional cascaded stock from elsewhere (instead of new build), presumably in addition to the already cascading 377/1's.
As most of us know, the 376s are being fitted with a new livery (which has gone shockingly quick considering I have not seen a yellow one anymore for a month!) new seats, LED lights and USB ports that are very likely to be gummed up or mangled by 2026. I assume this is just an interim measure for a few years before the new trains (whatever they may be) start to be introduced.Network Rail have sent out this press release today.
Great British Railways in action – passengers benefit from track and train being united on South Eastern Railway
Southeastern and Network Rail unite to operate under a single, more efficient leadership team known as South Eastern Railway Under public ownership Southeastern are delivering some of the lowest cancellation rates nationally and have forecast a £50m reduction in taxpayer subsidy South Eastern...
Of interest to this thread is the quote that there are plans to "modernise the rolling stock on the Metro service to deliver more accessible and passenger-focused journeys."
I quote this because modernise doesn't necessarily mean new trains, so it leaves the door open entirely to additional cascaded stock from elsewhere (instead of new build), presumably in addition to the already cascading 377/1's.
Maybe they plan on something to do with the Alstom Aventra platform (given it's the Electrostar's successor)? A third rail, 5-car unit train does already exist as the Class 701/5.
Robski
Member
- Joined
- 15 May 2016
- Messages
- 228
Personally I think it would be odd having two types of metro fleet for Southeastern.
Well they have it now with 3 trains! The 465, 376 and 707. All very different.
Yes and its not a particularly sensible approach.
At least with the 376s there is commonality between the long-distance Electrostars SE has. The 707s may be nice trains but I have no clue why they would adopt such a different train whilst still using the other two. (and only 15 full 10-car trains???)
With the weather this week my biggest wish for 376s is air conditioning. It's amazing how those windows seem to create no air flow even when the train is moving. The windows didn't seem that much bigger on networkers but I'm sure they didn't get as stuffy as the 376 has been this week.
I won't get my hopes up though...
I won't get my hopes up though...
D365
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 29 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 12,258
Alstom will not be building any more Aventras after the additional ten units for Elizabeth Line. Whatever gets offered for Northern, Southeastern etc will be a new ”low floor” concept, likely under the ’Adessia’ moniker.
The networkers didn’t and still don’t get anything like as stuffy. The 376s are the worst trains on the network for hot weather because the Electrostar body shell was designed for air conditioning. There’s no realistic prospect of that being fitted, however.
They still manage to generate a horrendous noise from the ventilation system despite no actual air cooling taking place.
Ah that explains it! How is it generating so much noise (which is very noticeable as you mention) without any airflow? Is it more realistic that proper ventilation can be installed, assuming actual cooling is too expensive?