Yep just got another train I think the carriage was 3566( not certain though). The interior had the same paint/chemical smell but was a bit graffitied. A tag was noticeably scrapped from a layer of paint.
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Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair
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I agree. What is needed as well as the cleaning is proactive law enforcement. Start nicking them and the Courts making them pay compensation for all of the cleaning.
The 3rd photo on the previous page looks awful, what with this, and the viral clips of people jumping the barriers, it just gives off the impression of the London Underground being lawless and run down. TFL shouldn’t have allowed this to happen, do they not realise these clips and photos go around the world and may result in tourists either not visiting, or not using the underground if they do visit.
The idea that people will put off visiting London from people looking at clips of tagged trains and people jumping barriers is frankly nonsense. People visit other cities which have much worse graffiti on their transport system.
Russel
Established Member
Even so, it still contributes to the 'Lawless London' rhetoric...
Including on rail forums...
Agreed.
We should remember that TfL are being subjected to this mindless vandalism*, and yet the consistent theme of this thread is that it's somehow their fault that they are being targeted! (Everyone seems to abhor shoplifting, but I haven't seen headlines asking why Tesco are making it so easy for shoplifters to steal from them.)
I read a lot here that 'it seems they [TfL] don't care'. Having a cursory glance at the internal TfL chat boards shows me that graffiti is a concern for staff as well, with responses from Service Control Managers and the Head of Service Control acknowledging the problem and outlining some of the measures they use to combat the graffiti, but removal is not as simple as it is sometimes made out to be - certainly not as simple as a 30 second TicTock - and as alluded to in previous posts, it will take a multi-disciplinary team to reduce the vandalism to a maintainable level. This includes TfL Security, Network Rail, and BTP, amongst others. Staff are being encouraged to keep reporting incidents of graffiti via internal systems and obviously members of the public also report constantly.
I also read about the broken window theory here, and wonder how it could be applied to the Bakerloo line - if we applied it vigorously today for example, there wouldn't be a single Bakerloo line train running. At the moment, wet graffiti (including acid) and offensive graffiti will get the train immediately removed from service. At what point should TfL leave a train in service? Should a single tag mean 'Out of Service' as the broken window theory suggests? It's a big ask and draws more criticism from passengers about unreliable services. Or maybe it should be 5 tags and take the train out? Or 10?
And what is offensive anyway? A swastika is universally regarded as offensive I would say - would a single 5cm swastika warrant immediately taking a train out of service? Or is that more a 'in service to the nearest depot' situation? What about homophobic/racist/or other hate speech or symbols? Anti Jewish graffiti? I personally find Donald Trump highly offensive, should pro Trump graffiti mean a train is taken out of service? It's so nuanced there's no easy answer.
Lastly, I can't believe I need to say this, but I can confirm there is no grand conspiracy to let the trains deteriorate to "force the government's hand" to buy TfL some new trains.
*Lets not kid ourselves that this graffiti is anything other than mindless vandalism, there is no artistic value in any of these tags.
(edited for spelling)
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Snow1964
Established Member
It's not about those that visit other cities, I think the comment was pointing out it will discourage those who have a choice of cities to visit.
London has become very soft on low level crime, not enforcing the basics. Wouldn't get this sloppy attitude in places like Oslo, Helsinki, Beijing, Singapore etc
jumble
Established Member
- Joined
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- 1,277
I agree
I have been told last week by a PCSO in Rayners Lane that there was a lot of phone snatching.
The Police apparently caught one person and the problem disappeared and I suspect that there is a very small number of idiots causing the issue
Why the authorities cannot act as they did in the Mark Duggan riots against looters who thought there were no consequences by catching a few and giving them 6 months as a guest of His Majesty which stopped the looting dead in its tracks is anyone's guess
Probably because the prisons are already so full that they are having to let people out early. That's down to a sustained period of underinvestment (sound familiar in a TfL context) by successive governments and can't easily be solved in the short-term.
That requires space in the courts, which are suffering a long running backlog. It also requires a level of enforcement that may not be within the powers of the courts - and would require Westminster to legislate upon.
Simply cleaning the graffiti will make a significant difference as it won’t be exhibited.
It's a vicious cycle and a no win situation because if it would a lot worse if the Bakerloo Line had to close temporarily because there wasn't any trains available due to being them being out of service, likewise the Central Line.
I do think TfL needs to be stop being as political football by all sides and perhaps have a working solution to deal with the vandalism.
I do think TfL needs to be stop being as political football by all sides and perhaps have a working solution to deal with the vandalism.
Russel
Established Member
All very well, but the fact remains that TFL have allowed the level of graffiti on the Bakerloo to build up, it's now becoming endemic so it's no longer a case of just cleaning it up and it goes away.
TFL Know that if you allow graffiti to linger, it encourages others, yet that's exactly what has happened.
bramling
Veteran Member
What it points to is TFL not having a functioning relationship with the BTP. Whilst clearly it should be being cleaned off promptly, given the scale this is happening it can’t be that hard for the perpetrators to be caught, especially given as posted elsewhere it’s highly likely to be a small number of people responsible for most of it.
There’s a prolific pickpocket who uses the same tactic daily, in the same locations, been going on for months yet nothing effective seems to have happened to deal with it.
jamesst
Established Member
Find me any Toc that does have a functioning relationship with the BTP, they're not the easiest force to work with sometimes
So if TfL don’t have the budget to deal with the problem what do you suggest? You appear to be blaming TfL for the actions of criminals.
I'm not sure that's necessarily true, or fair.
On the ground, I've always found the BTP to be excellent, but they are also stretched to the absolute bare bones, suffering from the same diabolical levels of funding as so many of the UK's services.
I'm quite sure they must be thinking, "Shall we investigate this sexual offence, or shall we investigate some graffiti? We don't have the manpower or resources for both." Well, that's a no-brainer isn't it.
There is of course also the fact that a lot of the worst grafitti takes place within depots and sidings, which ultimately are the train operator’s responsibility to adequately secure, or as in the case of the Bakerloo and (I think?) Central lines is happening on trains which lack any sort of basic CCTV coverage on board (which, frankly, is appalling in this day and age on a network like LUL, for all sorts of reasons).
Whilst that doesn’t make it any less of a criminal offence, aspects like that are unlikely to encourage BTP to direct their scant and massively overstretched resources towards the issue, when there are obvious steps that the train operator themselves are unwilling to take.
The BTP may well be the railway’s police force but, just as with fare evasion, there is an expectation that ‘the railway’ will take reasonable measures of its own to help mitigate some of the most common issues, rather than rely on BTP to police everything. They simply cannot do that.
5 Central line trains in a row covered in both internal and external graffiti at Stratford this evening. Could have been more after but had to catch my train home. Been reading these comments, but didn’t realise it was this bad! So sad to see.
Mldaureol
Member
There was also an article on BBC tv London news last night regarding the graffiti and state of the trains on the system.
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jon81uk
Member
Some discussion on the Bakerloo Line issues in London Centric this week https://www.londoncentric.media/i/166139652/whats-actually-behind-the-tube-graffiti-outbreak where they have informally spoken to some of the maintenance depot staff
Also on the vigilante cleaners last week https://www.londoncentric.media/p/looking-for-growth-bakerloo-line-graffiti-dominic-cummings
Doesn't seem worth adding CCTV to the older trains really and do need the government funding for replacement soon.
Also on the vigilante cleaners last week https://www.londoncentric.media/p/looking-for-growth-bakerloo-line-graffiti-dominic-cummings
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I don't know why London Centric keep spinning this lie that there won't be new Bakerloo Line trains.
jon81uk
Member
Doesn’t say there won’t be trains, just that the funding hasn’t been agreed yet, which as far as is known it hasn’t been confirmed for the Bakerloo.
Nym
Established Member
Also that they were introduced in 1972, there’re mostly Mk.IIs which were later.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Not much later, the last came into service in 1974.
They are saying there isn't any funding in place for the new trains. Which is true. There isn't.
The external graffiti takes place in the depot and sidings, but the internal graffiti takes place whilst the trains are on the move in public service.
The fundamental issue is that the area north/west of Queens Park has always been extremely rough. Back in the 80s and 90s you wouldn't hang around some stations- Harlseden and Stonebridge Park in particular- after dark unless you really really wanted to get mugged. St Raphael's Estate, right next to Stonebridge Park, is extremely deprived, probably one of the worst estates in London.
I don't think CCTV would make a huge amount of difference. Wear a bandana across your face and spray the lens as soon as you board; job done.
What is needed is feet on the ground. Back in the 90s that section of line was pretty much lawless, especially on Silverlink. This article, about a chap called Simon Wheatley who photographed the North London Line in those days, gives a flavour of it (and he's taken some pretty good photos): https://www.huckmag.com/article/simon-wheatley-london-life-along-the-silverlink-photography
Overground changed things with refurbished stations and- crucially- a hell of a lot more staff on the ground. Staffing levels have since whittled away, first with Boris Johnson's "reforms" and then more recently as a result of TfL's Covid-related financial difficulties. And as the staff have retreated, the criminals have moved back in.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
As I have said before , the North London Line and the Watford DC came off badly under privatisation as the "race to the bottom" intensified with winning franchise bids rewarded by lowest cost / higher premium which explains why that pair of services had from memory 51 staff to look after the station retail etc.
Having said that efforts were made to reduce graffiti and tagging especially - in service at Watford Jct and to an extent at Richmond where there were cariage cleaners who were enocouraged to remove fresh scrawls as much as possible - sometimes helped by personal management attention and overnight train washing at Camden Sidings was rigerously enforced. LUL at the time was badly hit on some lines - noteably the Metropolitan line. Interestingly the NLR 321 fleet was never really bothered by these criminal vandals , bar some attempts at Northampton Riverside sidings. In my view , management attention to detail was incredibly important.
Looking back at various NYC subway books ,in particular Steve Zabel who was a conducter , later motorman who took thousands of photos of the trains from the early 1970's , you can see how ignored minor graffiti and some ill advised media attention by arty liberals encouaraged even more damage , such that in a few years the system was covered and was not recovered properly till the late 1980's at great cost and effort.
Urban inner North London could be very challenging - !
Having said that efforts were made to reduce graffiti and tagging especially - in service at Watford Jct and to an extent at Richmond where there were cariage cleaners who were enocouraged to remove fresh scrawls as much as possible - sometimes helped by personal management attention and overnight train washing at Camden Sidings was rigerously enforced. LUL at the time was badly hit on some lines - noteably the Metropolitan line. Interestingly the NLR 321 fleet was never really bothered by these criminal vandals , bar some attempts at Northampton Riverside sidings. In my view , management attention to detail was incredibly important.
Looking back at various NYC subway books ,in particular Steve Zabel who was a conducter , later motorman who took thousands of photos of the trains from the early 1970's , you can see how ignored minor graffiti and some ill advised media attention by arty liberals encouaraged even more damage , such that in a few years the system was covered and was not recovered properly till the late 1980's at great cost and effort.
Urban inner North London could be very challenging - !
Although I think a lot of the issue is down to the decision to not fund TFL by raising fares in line with inflation I do have sympathy with the graffiti issue for the following reasons:
- When a service has been outsourced, you are tied into a specification for a time period unless you want to pay to change it and change is rarely cheap
- Graffiti vandals are clever - they understand their materials and are often one step ahead of the cleaners
- Recent media publicity, although fair, does provide oxygen to the vandals and arguably encourages them
- Dedicated teams (or contractors) purely for graffiti removal with specialist equipment so that effective removal does not impact regular cleaning - these would have robust incentives to carry out their tasks and leave the trains to a specified standard that is acceptable (not perfect)
- A call line for graffiti to be reported which would be publicised across the network
- Obliteration techniques (especially for external graffiti) where it is covered up so a train is in service until it can be removed without the appearance of the graffiti. Vinyl or obliteration paint may work outside windows which have to be cleaned
- Locking out individual carriages so that they can be cleaned while the rest of the train is in use (off peak of course) as a short term compromise
- Longer term, work with coating and paint suppliers on coatings to prevent future graffiti or ease its cleaning
BurtonM
Member
This isn't Northern Rail!
jon81uk
Member
Or the decision not to fund TfL properly from taxation, as most other metros are in the world.
It's noticeable that the Overground fleet travels through the same dodgy areas as the Bakerloo but is pretty much graffiti free. Is it really just internal CCTV that's to thank? Walk through carriages? Seems more likely there's a fundamentally different management approach at play.