Fare evasion on railtours.

[sad1e]

Feel free to move this to another Board if this is in the wrong place.

Earlier I was having a talk with a few of my friends and wondered if there has ever been any incident involving people boarding a railtour without proper ticketing.

What has / would happen if that person was caught. Do railtour operators have the ability to issue a penalty fare or any form of railway prosecution ?

 

[PP57601]

I guess it would depend on whether the person was a deliberate fare evader or accidentally travelling.

Bizarrely, some years ago, I part organised a charter utilising the historic ‘Queen of Scots’ coaches.

After departing Worcester Foregate Street a ticket check was carried out and it was discovered we had picked up a young couple who thought it was the Centro service to Birmingham?

God only knows how they confused a six-coach historic set of vehicles, for a 2/3car bright green multiple unit.

If memory serves correct, we made a special stop at Droitwich to drop them off.

 

[Watershed]

A Penalty Fare couldn't be issued as railtour operators do not have their logos listed on Penalty Fare warning posters.

In theory a prosecution could be brought under section 5(3)(a) for anyone who boards without a ticket and refuses to pay, but I doubt this would happen in practice.

They would probably be told, in strong terms, to get off and the train might be held until they do so.

 

[Oxfordblues]

A few years ago we arrived at Fort William on the Highland Sleeper, destined Inverie (for The Old Forge, the UK mainland's most-remote pub). On the opposite platform was The Jacobite, about to depart for Mallaig, whence we would board the afternoon ferry. So we got on, expecting to have to pay a supplement at least. But nobody challenged us and we didn't have to pay any extra.

 

[Shrop]

They would probably be told, in strong terms, to get off and the train might be held until they do so.

Is this a good idea? Imagine a group of badly behaved and bored youngsters taking it upon themselves to sit on a train without valid tickets, just to see what happens. Train staff would presumably not be allowed to make any physical contact with them, which the offenders could enjoy using to their advantage. Such behaviour (albeit perhaps not on trains) was commonplace during Covid in some areas. Think of the costs to the train operator of having a stationary train blocking the tracks for lengthy periods ...

 

[Gwr12345]

I was on a charter last year, and fare evasion seemed more innocent than anything. I.e. We had someone try to board at Manchester Victoria where we were stopped for pathing, assuming it was their train. The steward just stopped them, and that was that.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This was rife in the 1980s when rare locos turned up. Usually the operator RCTS/RESL etc especially Dale Fickes just asked for a couple of quid. I was next to him when he did that for The Plant Invader

 

[Sun Chariot]

Bizarrely, some years ago, I part organised a charter utilising the historic ‘Queen of Scots’ coaches.

After departing Worcester Foregate Street a ticket check was carried out and it was discovered we had picked up a young couple who thought it was the Centro service to Birmingham?

I've an image of an Ozzy Osborne sounding chap piping up:
"Shar-ron. I said I want to go to West ***ing Bromwich, not the West ****ing Highlands"

 

[Spartacus]

I've known the BTP be called to charters when someone's got on with no intention of paying, as well as for other issues. The limited stop nature making them easier than is often the case to arrange the train to be met by them before any miscreants leave. On the other hand I've got on ones before, as a little unbooked move home, with every intention of paying whatever sup was required, though it hasn't always been asked for one reason or another.

 

[LowLevel]

Is this a good idea? Imagine a group of badly behaved and bored youngsters taking it upon themselves to sit on a train without valid tickets, just to see what happens. Train staff would presumably not be allowed to make any physical contact with them, which the offenders could enjoy using to their advantage. Such behaviour (albeit perhaps not on trains) was commonplace during Covid in some areas. Think of the costs to the train operator of having a stationary train blocking the tracks for lengthy periods ...

Yes, because unlike most service trains railtours often set off in unexpected directions with a long distance between stops. Dropping some scrotes from the West Midlands in Scotland would be quite funny in many ways but has the potential to go rather wrong for obvious reasons. BTP will attend to chartered trains if they really have to.

In any case it doesn't tend to happen. Occasionally members of the public end up on railtours by mistake (no, the steam engine on ancient carriages isn't the 0825 local to Stourbridge Junction) and they're dropped off where practical.

As an aside we need to put an end to the position we've found ourselves in whereby people misbehaving can have any complaint about rough handling in preventing them from doing so. There's been many a railway worker saved from harm by the simple threat of a heavy torch.

 

[The exile]

In any case it doesn't tend to happen. Occasionally members of the public end up on railtours by mistake (no, the steam engine on ancient carriages isn't the 0825 local to Stourbridge Junction) and they're dropped off where practical

There has of course been at least one occasion where the rail tour has doubled as a service train.

 

[xotGD]

I'm sure that there have been plenty of cranks who have made out that they are normals who have "accidentally" boarded a charter.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'm sure that there have been plenty of cranks who have made out that they are normals who have "accidentally" boarded a charter.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever about that!

 

[notverydeep]

This was rife in the 1980s when rare locos turned up. Usually the operator RCTS/RESL etc especially Dale Fickes just asked for a couple of quid. I was next to him when he did that for The Plant Invader

On F&W and later Pathfinder tours in the 1980s and early 1990s, especially those with lots of freight locos, the charging of 'part fares' for short hops standing in the corridor just to get one or two of the locos seemed pretty standard. The stewards would soon find you or you found them first and asked how much to wherever, and almost all would know an amount to charge and would be expecting to collect it. I rarely saw attempts to evade these part fare as they tended to be reasonable.

They would also help genuine cases of getting on the wrong train resume their intended journeys where they could, though these were rare in my experience.

There has of course been at least one occasion where the rail tour has doubled as a service train.

I can remember coming back on a class 37 hauled excursion from the Severn Beach line stations to Pwllheli (in the late 1980s I think). Seats in the first two coaches were kept empty on the way back and it turned out that the train was planned to be a service train (calling at all stations) back to Machynlleth. Presumably, no extra path for the excursion had been available for an extra train, so the two were simply combined!

 

[The exile]

I can remember coming back on a class 37 hauled excursion from the Severn Beach line stations to Pwlheli (in the late 1980s I think). Seats in the first two coaches were kept empty on the way back and it turned out that the train was planned to be a service train (calling at all stations) back to Machynlleth. Presumably, no extra path for the excursion had been available for an extra train, so the two were simply combined!

The one I was thinking of originally would have treated “normals” to a 20 or Sarah Siddons on the Chesham branch - though it may just have been that one branch working was cancelled to give us a path.

 

[notverydeep]

The one I was thinking of originally would have treated “normals” to a 20 or Sarah Siddons on the Chesham branch - though it may just have been that one branch working was cancelled to give us a path.

I don't remember that happening - probably before my first time on Steam On The Met, but I do remember Sarah Siddons doing a number of return trips between in service Baker Street and Uxbridge at the very end of the 1990s - possibly 1999? This included the 4-TC cab leading - the only occasion I have seen that on LU tracks. It was a weekday and I think a minor anniversary of the Uxbridge branch. There were a few stewards, I was one, but it served all of the stations and anyone could travel on a normal ticket! [Which I guess makes this anecdote off topic sorry.] There were some confused looks from some of the passengers...

 

[The exile]

I don't remember that happening - probably before my first time on Steam On The Met, but I do remember Sarah Siddons doing a number of return trips between in service Baker Street and Uxbridge at the very end of the 1990s - possibly 1999? This included the 4-TC cab leading - the only occasion I have seen that on LU tracks. It was a weekday and I think a minor anniversary of the Uxbridge branch. There were a few stewards, I was one, but it served all of the stations and anyone could travel on a normal ticket! [Which I guess makes this anecdote off topic sorry.] There were some confused looks from some of the passengers...

“The Metro Gnome” in (I think) 1994.

 

[xotGD]

I've done the pair of 37s on the Scarborough Spa Express between Skipton and Shipley, or the reverse, several times. Just checked it was OK to board, and paid a tenner. Actually, the first time it was only a fiver.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

A fiver for a pair of required siphons sounds good value to me.

 

[MrJeeves]

The Class 313 farewell tour picked up a passenger from Three Bridges, I think, and we made a special stop at Haywards Heath to dispose of them.

That, however, seemed accidental! They were trying to head north (or maybe Arun Valley...).

 

[james_the_xv]

I can remember coming back on a class 37 hauled excursion from the Severn Beach line stations to Pwllheli (in the late 1980s I think). Seats in the first two coaches were kept empty on the way back and it turned out that the train was planned to be a service train (calling at all stations) back to Machynlleth. Presumably, no extra path for the excursion had been available for an extra train, so the two were simply combined!

Wouldn't happen nowadays with PRM requirements. They just cancel the service train that was planned to run if whichever decision maker thinks it's a better use of the path.

 

[xotGD]

A fiver for a pair of required siphons sounds good value to me.

I only needed one of them - rip off!

I used to get them for 5p back in the day...

 

[nanstallon]

Around 2000, I needed to get from Taunton to Kingswear in order to get home. There was a handy steam train going there at just the right time. There was no barrier control so I found a steward on the steam train. It was fully booked, but for a modest sum I was allowed to stand by a door. I would have done that anyway, and we were all happy! These jobsworth 'elfansafety' days, it would be out of the question for various reasons.

 

[Tetragon213]

I'm sure that there have been plenty of cranks who have made out that they are normals who have "accidentally" boarded a charter.

I've heard tales of people who have genuinely attempted to board the New Measurement Train in the past, so it's not entirely impossible for someone to accidentally board a charter.

 

[D1537]

Or you could even be hoyed off the train centre road at Wellington!

Six Bells Junction

 

[SuspectUsual]

I'm sure that there have been plenty of cranks who have made out that they are normals who have "accidentally" boarded a charter.

I couldn’t possibly comment

 

[crosscity]

When I was 15 in the early seventies, I tried to book a ticket on a 'Merrymaker' from West Yorkshire to Edinburgh, but my station's allocation was sold out. Using the logic that there would be at least one no-show, I boarded the train anyway. After leaving the last pick-up station (I think it was York) I plucked up courage and confessed all to the guard, half expecting to be thrown off at Newcastle. Instead, he gave me a telling-off and warning not to do it again, and sold me an unused, spare, ticket. After that, a fantastic day out, with a ride on a 27 t+t 'push-pull' to Glasgow and back along with a trip around Eastfield and Polmadie shed. I didn't try it again.

 

[SW Rover]

I can remember coming back on a class 37 hauled excursion from the Severn Beach line stations to Pwllheli (in the late 1980s I think). Seats in the first two coaches were kept empty on the way back and it turned out that the train was planned to be a service train (calling at all stations) back to Machynlleth. Presumably, no extra path for the excursion had been available for an extra train, so the two were simply combined!

Mid Kylesman Railtour - Midland Railfans - 15/9/84
37 114 and 37 171 hauled the combined stock, 16 coaches, of the railtour and 17:10 Kyle - Inverness as a service train.

 

[theblackwatch]

On F&W and later Pathfinder tours in the 1980s and early 1990s, especially those with lots of freight locos, the charging of 'part fares' for short hops standing in the corridor just to get one or two of the locos seemed pretty standard. The stewards would soon find you or you found them first and asked how much to wherever, and almost all would know an amount to charge and would be expecting to collect it. I rarely saw attempts to evade these part fare as they tended to be reasonable.

Most of the promoters know who and what to look out for. As someone who, until a few years ago, has been involved in dealing with tickets/part fares for more than one promoter (but not F&W/PF) I've found the vast majority of people are happy to 'cough up' and I've even had people get in touch in advance to let me know they'll be turning up or asking if it's ok. Working within the promoter's parameters, I've always tried to charge what I consider to be a fair price and what I'd be happy to pay if I was the passenger, but it also has to be balanced with what others have paid and what the tour's 'highlight' is - there is certainly no 'one size fits all'.

One operator that doesn't allow part fares is LSL - they don't even take pay on the day. And that is perfectly within their rights!

 

[pitdiver]

Many years ago one of my relations chartered a whole train for Post Office Telephone employees. This was our from local station, Bowes Park, to Blackpool. On the return that was quite late the staff at Blackpool decided that our private train was the only way they could move a number football supporters away from their station. I have no idea where they were going to. But a very stiff letter was sent to the appropriate official complaining about the incident.