Cowboy Operators a thing of the past?

[markymark2000]

They were also one of the last in Manchester to not accept card payments before they ceased operations.

That was not fully their fault though. They leased the machines off TFGM and TFGM refused to get new machines which take card as they were using it to score political points for franchising that not all ops took card.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed, but I recall that Busways didn't rate them very highly.

They wouldn't - they were in competition with them!! I'm sure TMS weren't enamoured by Favourite.

TWOC had a proper depot (which is still with Go North East??) and blinds. The chosen vehicle (Bristol LH - rugged and spartan, but cheap to run) had been scoured for and they had some quite mature ones as the barrel was being scraped. However, I'd definitely not say they were a cowboy firm.

One large firm (not mentioned thus far) was Veolia. Standards were variable (being charitable) and some areas felt in the cowboy zone such as South Wales

 

[Bungle965]

That was not fully their fault though. They leased the machines off TFGM and TFGM refused to get new machines which take card as they were using it to score political points for franchising that not all ops took card.

Granted although by that point even the smaller operators such as Vision Bus were accepting card at that point, I guess potentially as they were diversifying operations in light of franchising in Greater Manchester anyway.
Nexus Move were the only other I recall thinking about it now

 

[Jimmi]

PCL Travel in Northumberland are an operator who I'd describe as a cowboy operator. They are now shut down (I think), but operated a range of services in Northumberland.

They were well known for not showing up, no ticket machines, and bad drivers. Some of their services were regularly operated by vans with no destination blinds, or indication they were operating a public bus services.

They did win a bigger contract (470/473 in Alnwick), which used Optare Versas. I think they were stripped of this contract very quickly.

There's an article here in relation to them: https://www.route-one.net/legal/licence_cut_and_ban_as_tm_for_stocksfield_operator_raymond_johnson/

Believe they chucked the 470/473 contract (along with various others over time including services in Bishop Auckland). Others just died under their operation from "low passenger numbers"

Was heartbreaking to see all the effort put in by Spirit Buses with the 15/16 in Northumberland and PCL came along when Spirit could no longer sustain it and they almost killed off the services as they just couldn't be relied upon and wasn't pretty if you did try to use the service, 15 is now a shadow of its former self operating as service 471 with Liberty Coaches with fewer journeys per day whilst the 16 is ran by Upper Coquetdale Community Transport.

 

[mangad]

Those Primo’s certainly weren’t the best, I think they were falling apart from the moment that they left the factory

From my own experiences, M Travel and Stotts (based in Manchester, not Yorkshire) weren’t the best in Manchester. I recall that M Travel won a school bus tender in Manchester but routinely put buses without the capacity stipulated in the contract on the route.

I remember M Travel from a rail replacement bus where the driver was using Google Maps, which led them down a road to Chinley station that really wasn't suitable for a single decker bus, so it got stuck on a tight corner under a very low bridge! Passengers had to get out to guide the bus safely through!

They also ran a school bus that went to a local Catholic primary school. Saw the vehicle every day for a year when I was walking with my child to another school. Never anyone actually on it. Not surprising then that TfGM axed it.

Stotts was particularly challenging. The short-lived service from Rochdale to North Manchester General Hospital was run with a bus that never seemed to have a working ticket machine, so no fares were collected. The drivers varied; some were fine, others horrendous. I recall a driver coming out with the most racist things I’ve ever heard on one of their services once!

They were also one of the last in Manchester to not accept card payments before they ceased operations.

Little Gem were also cash only although they gave up sooner than Stotts. But at least Stotts had signs in the windows to say they were cash only. Little Gem, you only found out on board!

 

[Bungle965]

Little Gem were also cash only although they gave up sooner than Stotts. But at least Stotts had signs in the windows to say they were cash only. Little Gem, you only found out on board!

Little Gem at least had an app, I remember getting caught out like you say, the driver was at least happy for me to download the app and show him the ticket at the next stop.

 

[Simon75]

Diamond/Rotala I've heard aren't that good, mainly on maintenance side, not sure if it true or not ?

 

[nick291]

Those Primo’s certainly weren’t the best, I think they were falling apart from the moment that they left the factory

From my own experiences, M Travel and Stotts (based in Manchester, not Yorkshire) weren’t the best in Manchester. I recall that M Travel won a school bus tender in Manchester but routinely put buses without the capacity stipulated in the contract on the route.

Stotts was particularly challenging. The short-lived service from Rochdale to North Manchester General Hospital was run with a bus that never seemed to have a working ticket machine, so no fares were collected. The drivers varied; some were fine, others horrendous. I recall a driver coming out with the most racist things I’ve ever heard on one of their services once!

They were also one of the last in Manchester to not accept card payments before they ceased operations.

Wasn't Stott's in Greater Manchester also caught in 2018/19 for meddling with their drivers pensions or something along those lines?

 

[mayneway]

The west of Scotland was a hotbed of such operators, but low floor requirements and the purchasing power of McGill's mopped up Paisley and Greenock.
Perhaps the only one that has clung on is Avondale in Clydebank, who have a policy of buying Darts but laterally Enviro 200s, running them in to the ground, rinse and repeat. To be fair, they do paint them all first, but have the typical Monday to Saturday, 8am-6pm type of timetable. Ironically, the buses they run are actually around the same age as the Streetlites that First run on their Clydebank area services.

Stotts was particularly challenging. The short-lived service from Rochdale to North Manchester General Hospital was run with a bus that never seemed to have a working ticket machine, so no fares were collected. The drivers varied; some were fine, others horrendous. I recall a driver coming out with the most racist things I’ve ever heard on one of their services once!

They were interesting. I think the service you mention was the short lived 16.
Stotts took over the 202 up in Glossop when Speedwell ceased trading. It was an essential evening and Sunday service linking Gamesley and Charlesworth with Glossop and Hyde. The regular driver never issued any tickets and lo and behold the service was axed due to ‘low usage’.

At one point they really seemed to vet drivers then would take on anyone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 01:14 ==

Wasn't Stott's in Greater Manchester also caught in 2018/19 for meddling with their drivers pensions or something along those lines?

Not quite, they refused to pay school drivers pensions because they were part time. It had some years previous become mandatory for employers to pay employees pensions.

 

[Statto]

Whiulst First Group are not a cowboy operator, some of there operations leave a lot to be desired, one such operation was First Crosville, Birkenhead depot, Birkenhead never had any buses from new since 1998, buses were operating in service without working blinds & just paper stickers, it had the feel of cowboy operator, Stagecoach bought Wirral & Chester depots from First in January 2013, & saw marked improvement in standards, with a investment in new buses.

 

[Bungle965]

I think the service you mention was the short lived 16.

Yes, I believe you’re correct, I remember attempting to make the effort to complain to TfGM about what was happening however was told to contract the bus operator…

The regular driver never issued any tickets and lo and behold the service was axed due to ‘low usage’.

TfGM (Or GMPTE as it was then) have staff who go on these tendered services to ensure passenger numbers were being measured correctly, it’s a shame this appears to have fallen down in both of these cases.

 

[fgwrich]

Depends which Western Greyhound we're talking about. When it was Robin Orbell and Mark Howarth, it was an excellent firm though it was storing up problems with a fleet comprising mainly of Varios. By 2011, the cracks were showing but the two fires were devastating in many ways. However, it wasn't a cowboy firm.

Then it was sold to Adam Smith (aka Paul Jones) who had convictions for dishonesty involving passing fake banknotes (for which he was jailed), and had been involved with Buses Excetera. He and his sidekick (Michael Bishop) took on Black Velvet in Hampshire, and Western Greyhound. Now this was a cowboy outfit with a vehicle losing two wheels on the M3, vehicles not MOTed and insured, disc irregularities etc. Adam Smith was banned from holding an O license for 5 years but was then found to be running another firm with his mum as the "owner" and was since banned for 10 years as was his mum.

Funny enough, whilst reading the title of this thread my mind went from thinking about the more recent Transport SW to Black Velvet (very fresh in the minds of anyone in Hampshire I’ll add!), Western Greyhound and Buses Exectera. I know a few people who were still owed money that they’ll never see from that bunch…

 

[MEC]

Id say CT4N In nottingham are pretty bad,they cancel council contacted socially necessary bus services every single day, leaving elderly people stranded, they change routes without telling customers for example they've just taken the medilink 1 and medilink 2 services and merged them into one but haven't bothered to inform any customers.

 

[TheSmiths82]

With regard to the UK North/Stagecoach thing, I was there and I remember it well. While UK North were not in any way reputable, Stagecoach flooded the 86 and 85 routes often running several duplicates of the same service. Their intention was to simply try and run UK North out of business, but as it turns out UK North did that themselves.

UK North were always interesting, and I am sure some of their drivers used to play a game of "lets see how many red lights I can through on this trip!". I think before they got banned they were also in trouble for using red diesel although they claimed it was a mixed up with the suppliers. I did actually like UK North as they created competition on my route which was 100% Stagecoach until the Metrolink arrived giving residents an alternative.

I have found a link, it wasn't red diesel but it was other dodgy fuel they were using. https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...news/rogue-fuel-buses-forced-off-road-1148448

As a result they had to take a lot of buses of the road, I think they setup GM Buses under a different licence to try and get around the rules.

 

[DunsBus]

Though not a cowboy operator Munro's of Jedburgh was in a very sorry state by the time the end came in 2013. I have a recollection of seeing one of its seven O6-plate MAN/MCVs in Kelso commencing a trip to Edinburgh, looking decidely scruffy and with black smoke spewing from its exhaust, just a few weeks before the company closed and thinking "has it really had to come to this?". (A sister bus from the same batch had recently had a PG9 slapped on it after the vehicle inspectorate found soot in the passenger area.). Coupled with regular breakdowns, it really was a spectacular fall from grace for a company that once proclaimed itself to be the saviour of the Borders.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Remaining in Greater Manchester and perhaps five years or so into the deregulated era, does anybody recall Tame Valley, based in an industrial estate in Hyde?

It was set up by a former Greater Manchester Transport schedules office colleague and good friend of mine, Pat Keeley, and operated a mix of PTE contracts and registered work, including night services at the weekend I believe. I'm not sure but I don't think it ever exceeded three vehicles - I recall him buying two ex South Yorkshire Atlanteans converted to single-door at great expense, and then a Leyland National. I've attached a photo of them at the garage.

Set up with the best of intentions, I hate to think of this as a cowboy operation, but in reality it was run on a shoestring, with any setbacks having to be covered by Pat's capital. He did once tell me how much he had spent on it, but faced with a life-limiting medical condition and no family to support, his attitude was 'What else would I have done with it?' I did have a family to support by this time and a steady job driving for a big group, so was not in a position to join him in the venture.

Glossopdale purchased the goodwill but I'm not sure if they took whatever vehicles were left, and also took Pat on in a quasi-supervisory role. However his health deteriorated soon after, and he sadly passed away but was always happy he'd given it a go.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Remaining in Greater Manchester and perhaps five years or so into the deregulated era, does anybody recall Tame Valley, based in an industrial estate in Hyde?

It was set up by a former Greater Manchester Transport schedules office colleague and good friend of mine, Pat Keeley, and operated a mix of PTE contracts and registered work, including night services at the weekend I believe. I'm not sure but I don't think it ever exceeded three vehicles - I recall him buying two ex South Yorkshire Atlanteans converted to single-door at great expense, and then a Leyland National. I've attached a photo of them at the garage.

Set up with the best of intentions, I hate to think of this as a cowboy operation, but in reality it was run on a shoestring, with any setbacks having to be covered by Pat's capital. He did once tell me how much he had spent on it, but faced with a life-limiting medical condition and no family to support, his attitude was 'What else would I have done with it?' I did have a family to support by this time and a steady job driving for a big group, so was not in a position to join him in the venture.

Glossopdale purchased the goodwill but I'm not sure if they took whatever vehicles were left, and also took Pat on in a quasi-supervisory role. However his health deteriorated soon after, and he sadly passed away but was always happy he'd given it a go.

They had more than 3 buses (although whether all of them ran together or not I don't know) as they had to ex GMPTE Fleetlines that they aquired from MyBus (another "iffy" looking operator!) One of the Fleetlines (the flat screened one) had such a lump on the offside roofline, one could only imagine the copious amount of bodyfiller (and likely the actual tin!) used to plug whatever hole it had spawned!!!

On the subject of GTL in Liverpool, I wonder how much money they were paid to star in the film based on their operations at Gilmoss..?

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

UK North was the proprietors second venture into bus operation, the first was Mybus. They also ran a shop called the Denton Discount Warehouse and the bus company was registered under that name with vehicles carrying the legal lettering "Denton Discount Warehouse t/a Mybus".
Mybus appeared c.1991. My only sighting of them was an ex-Nottingham Fleetline in June 1992, it was in allover matt red with the fleetname stuck on in white self-adhesive tape, i.e. the tape had been used to spell the word"Mybus".
Shortly afterwards they suspended operations to get on top of maintenance issues before reappearing in early 1993. They vanished in either late 93 or early 94 IIRC, and the owners re-emerged with UK North during 1996.

JPT were probably up there at the top. Never worked for them but heard some horror stories. I do remember seeing a primo on the 217 one night making a very loud scraping noise with sparks coming from the rear of the bus, turns out the driver had flown over a speed hump and the exhaust had come loose and was dragging on the floor - driver told to carry on as it was tendered.

JPT were an odd one. They operated on a modest scale and quite respectably for years, then suddenly underwent a massive expansion and began running any old rubbish

 

[mayneway]

TfGM (Or GMPTE as it was then) have staff who go on these tendered services to ensure passenger numbers were being measured correctly, it’s a shame this appears to have fallen down in both of these cases.

Yes data collectors. The driver was well known to drive off and leave them at bus stations and timing points, but in all honesty as a driver myself it was very rare so see data collectors out in the evenings and on Sundays.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 14:52 ==

The thing you have to remember is Stagecoach have a lot of clout in certain areas one being Manchester. They put pressure on the authorities to refuse a licence increase from UK North because they knew what was coming, so the owners simply registered a separate company with the same directors at the same address and it was granted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 14:55 ==

They operated more than 3 vehicles and shared the yard with South Manchester another here today gone tomorrow operator - infact on many occasions Tame Valley would loan south Manchester vehicles or vice versa.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 15:03 ==

JPT were an odd one. They operated on a modest scale and quite respectably for years, then suddenly underwent a massive expansion and began running any old rubbish

The story of JPT is identical to that of Dennis’s years previously. They ran modest minibus and private hire businesses and survived along side the big boys until the owners retired and their young ambitious sons took over. With ideas of growing bigger and bigger the big boys didn’t like it and began to compete and turn the screws.
JPT seemed to grow pretty big and fast at one point but behind the scenes things were not good, drivers were being told to take takings as wages, buses were being patched up with gaffer tape and they literally ran out of money. The final nail was when Bluebird was sold to Stagecoach and within months they bought JPT for £1 to try and save routes and jobs.
That in it self is dodgy ground as it was always alleged TFGM brokered the deal with Stagecoach and TFGM - something that they legally shouldn’t have done.

 

[mangad]

Remaining in Greater Manchester and perhaps five years or so into the deregulated era, does anybody recall Tame Valley, based in an industrial estate in Hyde?

It was set up by a former Greater Manchester Transport schedules office colleague and good friend of mine, Pat Keeley, and operated a mix of PTE contracts and registered work, including night services at the weekend I believe. I'm not sure but I don't think it ever exceeded three vehicles - I recall him buying two ex South Yorkshire Atlanteans converted to single-door at great expense, and then a Leyland National. I've attached a photo of them at the garage.

Set up with the best of intentions, I hate to think of this as a cowboy operation, but in reality it was run on a shoestring, with any setbacks having to be covered by Pat's capital. He did once tell me how much he had spent on it, but faced with a life-limiting medical condition and no family to support, his attitude was 'What else would I have done with it?' I did have a family to support by this time and a steady job driving for a big group, so was not in a position to join him in the venture.

Glossopdale purchased the goodwill but I'm not sure if they took whatever vehicles were left, and also took Pat on in a quasi-supervisory role. However his health deteriorated soon after, and he sadly passed away but was always happy he'd given it a go.

I visited their depot when I was at high school! Would have been not long after they started up. Was doing a local studies project in what we'd now call Year 8 and I opted to do it on public transport. Wrote to several bus companies and Tame Valley and Bee Line (by then running double deckers out of a big covered depot somewhere near the city centre - sure someone will know where it was) both invited me to visit. I must have sat in that caravan. Goodness knows what we spoke about!

 

[mayneway]

Anyone remember North Western from a few years ago?
A bit of a fantasist approached a number of operators including Goodwins with some brave idea of setting up an operation that would make a fortune.
Anyway in the end he persuaded the owner of GB coaches in Audenshaw to take a punt and lend him some disks. By a stroke of luck Stagecoach had announced they were withdrawing the 236 between Ashton and Glossop so GB quickly registered it, acquired two ex Halton darts and a couple of Solos off eBay. There was talk of other circulars around Ashton and Glossop being registered but I don’t know how true that was. I think they actually operated the 236 for all of 3 days before the owner of GB coaches realised the fantasist was just that and didn’t have any money to pay the drivers of fuel the buses so it all came to an almighty end. The owner of GB coaches worried he would fave the TC actually wound his business up all together and the buses were quickly flogged on eBay.

 

[ChrisC]

I don’t think anyone has mentioned Camms Buses and Coaches of Nottingham so far in this thread. They were so unreliable that almost everyone referred to them as Camms Collaspsibles. There were so many stories of them breaking down, catching fire, water pouring in during heavy rain, the wheels coming off etc, but I don’t know how much of these stories were exaggerated. In the early 1980’s they tried to compete with Trent Barton on the Nottingham to Hucknall route offering very low fares and running their buses just before the Trent Barton buses. They had such a bad reputation that it was doomed to failure as Camms Collapsibles were so much of a joke to local people. I think they finally went out of business in the late 1980’s.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don’t think anyone has mentioned Camms Buses and Coaches of Nottingham so far in this thread. They were so unreliable that almost everyone referred to them as Camms Collaspsibles. There were so many stories of them breaking down, catching fire, water pouring in during heavy rain, the wheels coming off etc, but I don’t know how much of these stories were exaggerated. In the early 1980’s they tried to compete with Trent Barton on the Nottingham to Hucknall route offering very low fares and running their buses just before the Trent Barton buses. They had such a bad reputation that it was doomed to failure as Camms Collapsibles were so much of a joke to local people. I think they finally went out of business in the late 1980’s.

Didn’t Derby City Transport buy them out?

In respect of their reliability, Pride of the Road were known as Side of the Road

 

[Dai Corner]

I vaguely remember a company called Crosville (not 'the' Crosville) competing with First in Weston-super-Mare. I'm not sure why they ceased operating or whether they fell into the cowboy category.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I vaguely remember a company called Crosville (not 'the' Crosville) competing with First in Weston-super-Mare. I'm not sure why they ceased operating or whether they fell into the cowboy category.

Not really - they were well run. Just they decided to take on First on their main Weston route and over extended themselves.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I visited their depot when I was at high school! Would have been not long after they started up. Was doing a local studies project in what we'd now call Year 8 and I opted to do it on public transport. Wrote to several bus companies and Tame Valley and Bee Line (by then running double deckers out of a big covered depot somewhere near the city centre - sure someone will know where it was) both invited me to visit. I must have sat in that caravan. Goodness knows what we spoke about!

I hope my friend made you welcome at Tame Valley - he could be rather a spiky character!

Your mention of Bee Line is timely: I actually started my driving career with them at their Portwood depot in Stockport, now the site of the Tesco Extra. A heavily-capitalised start up of United Transport, with a brand new fleet, well-trained staff and newly-equipped premises, surely they couldn't be described as cowboys?

Well, not in the sense of many of the other operators mentioned here, no. But their original business philosophy, although superficially impressive with long operating hours on 'innovative' routes, soon retrenched to little more than competing on existing well-served trunk routes. Granted, some of their new links are still represented in the route network (say 7, 11 or the routes from Stockport to Stretford/Urmston) but many of the newly-served roads generated very little traffic, and often significant opposition from residents.

I might also rail at the poor working conditions, particularly in the early days. Split turns abounded, with unpaid three hour breaks a feature of several Sunday duties on my regular route. Running times were often very optimistic, although in fairness that did gradually seem to improve. Discipline was fairly harsh, with summary dismissal the outcome for any driver found smoking on the vehicle, even if stood on the step during a layover (if you actually got a layover!).

I left after about 15 months; the training bond was a flat £100 for 12 months, roughly a week's wage.

I assume the depot mentioned by @mangad would I assume be Hulme Hall Road, the former North Western Road Car premises just off the A56 in the St Georges area of Old Trafford, also used by Ribble, if anybody could confirm?

 

[Flying Snail]

We have a fairly high profile cowboy outfit here in Ireland, the condition of their fleet is and has been a disgrace for a long time, well documented online at this point, court cases for driving hour/tacho infringements, even articles in the national media.

I won't go into detail but this picture should give you a taste.

 

[nick291]

We have a fairly high profile cowboy outfit here in Ireland, the condition of their fleet is and has been a disgrace for a long time, well documented online at this point, court cases for driving hour/tacho infringements, even articles in the national media.

I won't go into detail but this picture should give you a taste.

Do the initials happen to be DC at all? Because I've not heard great things about them if so.

 

[317 forever]

Happy to be corrected about Drawlane and Allied Bus.

Just looked at the article. January 1992 to August 1994 straddles the final year of Drawlane and the first 19 months of British Bus. It certainly explains the almost total lack of group fleet renewal during that period. I'm sure that there were many, like me, who smelled a rat when news of Dawson Williams' dodgy dealings broke shortly after British Bus was sold to Cowie.

I understand that it was these irregularities, or the prospect of them becoming public knowledge, that derailed the plans by British Bus to float on the Stock Exchange, hence their trade sale to Cowie instead.

 

[Flying Snail]

Do the initials happen to be DC at all? Because I've not heard great things about them if so.

Yes, that's them.

Article from Irish Times detailing whistleblower's claims.

https://archive.fo/OHK2E