Cowboy Operators a thing of the past?

[mayneway]

I don't know a lot about them, but I always got the impression that they're quite well-run

The original Pilkingtons was questionable. They had their licence revoked many years ago - although the family always protested it was down to Transdev wanting no competition.
They quickly secured a second licence under the name ‘Kings travel’ and began operating again using initially a pair of Ex Eyms excels then gradually grew to what they are today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 20:00 ==

Diamond/Rotala I've heard aren't that good, mainly on maintenance side, not sure if it true or not ?

A colleague of mine worked for them in Manchester in 2021 after they picked up a load of the MCT contracts. He was repeatedly asked to break driving hours and drive into his legal break to swap buses when his had a fault etc.

 

[Simon75]

Referring to North Western (post 1986)

North Western had a garage in Winsford (Chesthire ) in the 1990s. I remember Various drivers told me Winsford was a dumping ground for old buses, which carried on during Arriva years.
The only new buses they had were around 1995 , they had some M (I think) reg mini buses. They also bought a few operators in Mid Cheshire, which routes,depots,mane disappeared

 

[Leedsbusman]

The original Pilkingtons was questionable. They had their licence revoked many years ago - although the family always protested it was down to Transdev wanting no competition.
They quickly secured a second licence under the name ‘Kings travel’ and began operating again using initially a pair of Ex Eyms excels then gradually grew to what they are today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 20:00 ==

the original original Pilkingtons license was revoked long before Transdev came on the scene in the 1990s. The second version had lost its license in 2004 (again pre Transdev). They seem to be behaving better these days.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding Pilkingtons I remember them registering some services that they used to operate under "Boomerang Travel" name. Not to sure if this is still used.

 

[markymark2000]

Regarding Pilkingtons I remember them registering some services that they used to operate under "Boomerang Travel" name. Not to sure if this is still used.

Just to confirm, Pilkington Bus is just the trading name of Boomerang Travel. Their operators licence is under the Boomerang Travel company too, again it's noted on the Traffic Commissioners licence checker that they trade as Pilkingtons.

 

[Deerfold]

With Rotala anything could turn up. Minibuses and double deckers operating the same route at the same time has been known to happen.

To be fair that happens with a few operators.

Transdev Keighley often have both on their 62 service to Ilkley and K9 estate service.

Until a couple of weeks ago the 62 arriving in Keighley about 0710 was regularly a minibus whilst the one before it was a double decker.

 

[anthony263]

I know you don't like Stagecoach but you can't put UK North and Stagecoach in the same category.

UK North actively flouted drivers' hours legislation and then falsified the records, ran a fleet of unroadworthy vehicles (with over half being given immediate prohibitions when the ministry swooped), and that's before we get onto the catalogue of accidents and a fatality.

You might not like the business ethics of Brian Souter but there's no equivalence when looking at legal compliance.


In the same way, I don't think you can bracket CT Plus or Wessex with Eurocoaches. Remember that CT Plus were encouraged to use the ex London bendis because Metrobus was being touted with using similar kit, and the vehicles were generally presented ok in the appropriate livery (except for one that retain London red). As for Rotala, they did try to have a go at First (was it on the ONE or the 90 that you were on) but that was only because they were looking to fight back after First commercially registered a lot of Rotala's tendered work.

I recall Eurocoaches taking on a raft of tenders in 2006 and it was such a disaster, they were quickly removed. Welfare minibuses without blinds were turfed out onto city routes. It was horrendous.

If you want a modern day cowboy, can I offer you Transpora and Transpora. The North West operations have had a long history with Catch 22 etc, and the relationship between the proprietor and Beverley Bell!! However, their legal compliance is seemingly much improved.

However, Transpora SW... well, the PI is still fresh in my mind. Vehicles on the wrong discs, exceeding vehicle authorisations, poor reliability including a driver downing tools as she had had enough, vehicles untaxed (and so uninsured), drivers with the wrong license entitlement, vehicles used without tachos, a vehicle broken down and abandoned in a dangerous location, and then the whole operation collapsed with virtually no warning. Oh, and Rhys Hand was accused of viewing telling the truth as "a lifestyle option".

Transpora have now arrived in Cardiff on a city sightseeing tour route.

Usually an enviro 400 but then tridents been out lately. Timetable wise the route is struggling with congestion at peak.times

 

[Lewisham2221]

Interesting thread! And some even more interesting interpretations of cowboy - some seem to imply that pretty much any independent operator is a cowboy

I wouldn't really class the likes of GHA Coaches, Western Greyhound and Hulley's (and others) as your typical cowboy operators. They're more like well intentioned, well respected operators who then grew too large and/or too quickly to maintain their standards - it becomes much harder to be "picky" when recruiting staff, much harder to be "picky" when purchasing new (to the fleet, usually not brand new) vehicles, much harder for the existing small management team to have a good eyes and hands on grasp of the whole day to day operation.

Then there were the shabby but well intentioned operators. Usually reasonably well maintained vehicles (mechanically if not cosmetically), often "getting on a bit". The sort that would run either Merc minibuses or big old coaches or double deckers - normally operating council tendered services - interworking with school services. Often rural work of the once a day each way, one day a week/market days only type services. Very well intentioned but often on a very low budget - probably no driver uniform, difficult to find service information, handwritten destinations displays - but very much operating in good faith, very friendly drivers who would often know most of their regulars by name.

The true cowboys, I would suggest, are/were something else entirely. The sort who would almost exclusively operate 7 til 7 (at best), paralleling the "big" operators best performing routes (or even the best performing sections of the best performing routes), where service information and timetables were hard to find and/or completely fictional anyway. The type where you'd quite possibly be charged a different price every time you boarded, 50/50 if you actually get a ticket. Often rude/aggressive drivers, poor driving standards. Very little interest in actually providing any sort of useful service. The kind to be seen having regular run ins with VOSA/Traffic Commissioners regarding financial standing, vehicle maintenance and timetable compliance.

 

[Omnidekkalover]

Transpora have now arrived in Cardiff on a city sightseeing tour route

No doubt following a very similar route to Cardiff bus’s open topper

 

[anthony263]

No doubt following a very similar route to Cardiff bus’s open topper

Think its the same as citysightseeing did a few years ago

 

[Omnidekkalover]

Fair

 

[RDP]

One I remember which only operated for a few months in 1991 was the Bee Line Buzz Company, not the one in Manchester but a one minibus (a sherpa from the original Bee Line company still in their livery) operation on the Romney Marsh run by a now long defunct taxi firm. They ran one route numbered 01 between Lydd and Dungeness via New Romney and Greatstone taking in several of the back roads not served by the East Kent Road Car Co. (now Stagecoach). All appeared to be going well for the first couple of weeks then services only seemed to run on an ad hoc basis with there being no service at all on some days. Needless to say it did not last long.

 

[nick291]

Transpora have now arrived in Cardiff on a city sightseeing tour route.

Usually an enviro 400 but then tridents been out lately. Timetable wise the route is struggling with congestion at peak.times

Have they now? Might be good to reopen the Transpora theead then!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be fair that happens with a few operators.

Transdev Keighley often have both on their 62 service to Ilkley and K9 estate service.

Until a couple of weeks ago the 62 arriving in Keighley about 0710 was regularly a minibus whilst the one before it was a double decker.

Was definitely a semi-regular occurrence on Yorkshire Tiger (who I'd initially ruled out of the "cowboy" label due to their ownership, but if the cap fits...) on the 82/233 (now D1) route.

Arguably before the Tiger rebrand under Arriva, the operations out of Waterloo depot have always had a bit of a reputation. Under Yorkshire Traction the Huddersfield ops always felt like the "ginger stepchild" and this worsened under Stagecoach until the Huddersfield bit was sold off. When it became Centrebus Holdings aka Huddersfield Bus Company, it was still using a tired old fleet that had been handed down from YT days, along with a small fleet of new Plaxton Centros. There also seemed to be a bit of indecision about livery, with all but one of the Centros having a special green "rural" livery... until a few of the legacy fleet got that too. Everything else was slowly painted into the standard Centrebus colours, sometimes only weeks before withdrawal!

 

[Trainman40083]

UK North (Manchester) was a familiar one also Dennis coaches

Ah "The Denton Discount Warehouse" bus company.

 

[mayneway]

Ah "The Denton Discount Warehouse" bus company.

UK North was never connected to the discount warehouse it was MyBus, although they both operated out of the yard on the Tintwhistle/Hadfield border before UK north moved to the Tan works in Gorton.

 

[Trainman40083]

UK North was never connected to the discount warehouse it was MyBus, although they both operated out of the yard on the Tintwhistle/Hadfield border before UK north moved to the Tan works in Gorton.

Okay

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Was definitely a semi-regular occurrence on Yorkshire Tiger (who I'd initially ruled out of the "cowboy" label due to their ownership, but if the cap fits...) on the 82/233 (now D1) route.

Arguably before the Tiger rebrand under Arriva, the operations out of Waterloo depot have always had a bit of a reputation. Under Yorkshire Traction the Huddersfield ops always felt like the "ginger stepchild" and this worsened under Stagecoach until the Huddersfield bit was sold off. When it became Centrebus Holdings aka Huddersfield Bus Company, it was still using a tired old fleet that had been handed down from YT days, along with a small fleet of new Plaxton Centros. There also seemed to be a bit of indecision about livery, with all but one of the Centros having a special green "rural" livery... until a few of the legacy fleet got that too. Everything else was slowly painted into the standard Centrebus colours, sometimes only weeks before withdrawal!

Bit harsh on the description of the Centrebus takeover, they replaced 20% of the fleet effectively on day one with those Centros and that meant most of the frontline all-day fleet (leaving aside the deckers mostly there for schools though they did cover normal service) was low floor. There wasn't any indecision on livery, the Go Green livery was route branding for the 80-84 corridor (the routes down the valley to Denby Dale & Clayton West) which was mostly allocated Centros (the initial 08-plate ones, a later 58-plate was also received for more general duties) but a couple of Volvo Sprytes covered the less busy routes & workings so a couple were also branded as such. Those repainted may have been withdrawn from Huddersfield but I think all were being transferred to elsewhere in the group, Yorkshire always under Centrebus had the most modern fleet in the group, so it was logical to repaint them even if they didn't stay in Yorkshire for long as all bar the Scania K93s saw decent service elsewhere.

Random, or varied, allocations on a route are not remotely an indication of being a cowboy, some routes simply have no specific requirements and some do and so you may sometimes schedule different sizes because that is what makes most sense in the rest of the day (peak trips etc). Unless you have strict route branding that limits your schedules most operators will have this somewhere as it just makes sense.

There doesn't appear to be a clear consensus on what a cowboy operator actually is on this thread and quite a few operators have been mentioned which aren't close to being so, true cowboys are operators who don't run by the rules deliberately. In terms of operators mentioned in this thread they can probably be grouped into four groups only one of which is truly "cowboy":
1. Operators who simply don't run as people want - there is no real legal issue but they don't behave as people like so they get criticism for being poor operators just for not operating as others would like.
2. Operators who hit financial problems - these weren't cowboys but at some point hit financial issues which meant that quality deteriorated to a poor level. Most failed too quickly to be really considered cowboy as they failings weren't intended but result of other issues.
2. Low cost operations - These operations run everything legally but don't add bells and whistles, often with older vehicles and the like but they do everything right so aren't cowboy.
3. True Cowboys - Operators who actively run in a manner that is likely to not meet legal obligations deliberately over a sustained period without any attempt to address problems, whether the egregious ones who play fast & lose with maintenance and drivers hours or those who simply don't bother running services as registered or don't try to work within the registration system as they should.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

UK North was never connected to the discount warehouse it was MyBus, although they both operated out of the yard on the Tintwhistle/Hadfield border before UK north moved to the Tan works in Gorton.

The discount warehouse, Mybus and UK North were all owned by the Cazale's- Ernesto and Vincenzo IIRC.
As I posted up thread Mybus' legal lettering was Denton Discount Warehouse t/a Mybus.
But yes, UK North was a separate company although owned by the same people, I recall its website having a history page on it that mentioned the shop and Mybus.

 

[ian1944]

One that seems to have been between categories is Bankfoot Buses, banned by the Traffic Commissioner about 15 years ago for a whole series of transgressions but liked by the passengers. After the ban they continued running free for a while, but I assume now long gone.

 

[mayneway]

The discount warehouse, Mybus and UK North were all owned by the Cazale's- Ernesto and Vincenzo IIRC.
As I posted up thread Mybus' legal lettering was Denton Discount Warehouse t/a Mybus.
But yes, UK North was a separate company although owned by the same people, I recall its website having a history page on it that mentioned the shop and Mybus.

Yes I believe the discount warehouse was the registered office of Mybus. Not sure where the registered office of UK north was in the early days before they moved to Gorton Lane.

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes I believe the discount warehouse was the registered office of Mybus. Not sure where the registered office of UK north was in the early days before they moved to Gorton Lane.

I remember a fleet of ex London DMS and Nationals.

 

[DaveLondon]

Transpora have now arrived in Cardiff on a city sightseeing tour route.

Usually an enviro 400 but then tridents been out lately. Timetable wise the route is struggling with congestion at peak.times

Interesting to see "Transpora" back again. They are not really an operator as they hold no operator licence. Do you know who is actually operating the vehicle? Not good open top territory - Bath Bus pulled out some time ago.

 

[mayneway]

I remember a fleet of ex London DMS and Nationals.

It was an extremely varied fleet!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 18:34 ==

Interesting to see "Transpora" back again. They are not really an operator as they hold no operator licence. Do you know who is actually operating the vehicle? Not good open top territory - Bath Bus pulled out some time ago.

They never really went away. Higgs continued to operate in the North west throughout and I believe it was always his plan to roll out sightseeing to different parts of the country.
The sightseeing in Manchester operates on the Manchester sightseeing licence he has.

 

[Flange Squeal]

They never really went away. Higgs continued to operate in the North west throughout and I believe it was always his plan to roll out sightseeing to different parts of the country.
The sightseeing in Manchester operates on the Manchester sightseeing licence he has.

The 'Sightseeing Bristol' service still has a Facebook page from that proposed operation, with maps and timetables for the 'coming soon' route due to start last year. I don't believe it ever did in the end, though. That can be viewed at https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61558832438807

The Manchester Bus Tours licence does also show the past Chester service operated by whatever the business was known as at the time (possibly Classic Bus North West or Catch22?). That seemed to run in 2018 using Routemaster RML 887 (202 UXJ), after the Chester Heritage Tour service with its replica London B-Type ceased. The Chester service had an advertised domain of SightseeingChester.com as seen in this photo on Flickr, matching the format of Manchester and now Cardiff.

Catch22Bus RML 887 swapping Chelsea for Chester

During its last years in normal passenger service on routes 14 and 22, RML 887 was based at London General's Putney (AF) bus garage where for the last two months of service with London General in 2005 the vehicle was treated to a very attractive 1920s style of LGOC red/black/white/light grey...

www.flickr.com

For the record, I'm not claiming these companies or individuals involved are cowboys - just expanding on the above discussion!

 

[mayneway]

For the record, I'm not claiming these companies or individuals involved are cowboys - just expanding on the above discussion!

I see the Manchester operation pretty regular and it seems really well run with the same driver.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For real cowboys, Snaith’s of Otterburn were convicted (as were many drivers) of industrial scale tacho falsification.

That’s a story I missed, heaven knows how. Weird as they otherwise seemed to not be cowboys, their buses seemed on the face of it to be looked after. All the gear and no idea?

Speaking of North East cowboys, there was one who was based out of a garage next to Prudhoe station. Their name completely escapes me. Tried to compete with Go North East and Arriva on the Newcastle-Prudhoe corridor using a succession of clapped-out Optare Deltas and also won a load of tenders for the likes of the 74 (Newcastle-Matfen). Stayed around both far longer than I expected and far longer than they should have.

 

[Andyh82]

Interesting thread! And some even more interesting interpretations of cowboy - some seem to imply that pretty much any independent operator is a cowboy

I wouldn't really class the likes of GHA Coaches, Western Greyhound and Hulley's (and others) as your typical cowboy operators. They're more like well intentioned, well respected operators who then grew too large and/or too quickly to maintain their standards - it becomes much harder to be "picky" when recruiting staff, much harder to be "picky" when purchasing new (to the fleet, usually not brand new) vehicles, much harder for the existing small management team to have a good eyes and hands on grasp of the whole day to day operation.

Then there were the shabby but well intentioned operators. Usually reasonably well maintained vehicles (mechanically if not cosmetically), often "getting on a bit". The sort that would run either Merc minibuses or big old coaches or double deckers - normally operating council tendered services - interworking with school services. Often rural work of the once a day each way, one day a week/market days only type services. Very well intentioned but often on a very low budget - probably no driver uniform, difficult to find service information, handwritten destinations displays - but very much operating in good faith, very friendly drivers who would often know most of their regulars by name.

The true cowboys, I would suggest, are/were something else entirely. The sort who would almost exclusively operate 7 til 7 (at best), paralleling the "big" operators best performing routes (or even the best performing sections of the best performing routes), where service information and timetables were hard to find and/or completely fictional anyway. The type where you'd quite possibly be charged a different price every time you boarded, 50/50 if you actually get a ticket. Often rude/aggressive drivers, poor driving standards. Very little interest in actually providing any sort of useful service. The kind to be seen having regular run ins with VOSA/Traffic Commissioners regarding financial standing, vehicle maintenance and timetable compliance.

I would agree with all this, it did seem pretty much any independent or any operator with an older fleet was being mentioned

My definition would have been, life expired buses, often a generation of bus older than what everyone else is now using, it’d be Dart SLFs and early ALX400s now, previously step darts, merc minis etc. generally in someone else’s livery, often no fleetname, scruffy destination displays, scruffy drivers who look a bit dodgy, running on a major corridor in front of the main operator.

As someone else said many pages ago, a lot of these scruffy operators seem to turn up on Rail Replacement these days rather than stage carriage

 

[mattb7tl]

It is not exactly wrong to generalise independents as cowboys; it is the harsh truth, but it is not usually the fault of these independents.

It is important to note that essentially everywhere in the country is a de facto monopoly.

It isn't realistic for anyone to enter the market other than to run poverty tenders, which larger operators do not want to operate. As a result, this has created a large amount of independents, which are quite clearly unsustainable and are preventing their inevitable bankruptcy by skipping over maintenance and presentation, while largely surviving on decrepit end of life second hand vehicles. Hence, their (rightful) perception.

It seems that a lot of enthusiasts lower their standards because a business is family owned or a beloved fragile little independent, but to those who do not lower their standards, like myself or the general public, independents are overwhelmingly perceived as cowboys.

 

[Jimmi]

The 'Sightseeing Bristol' service still has a Facebook page from that proposed operation, with maps and timetables for the 'coming soon' route due to start last year. I don't believe it ever did in the end, though. That can be viewed at https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61558832438807

The Manchester Bus Tours licence does also show the past Chester service operated by whatever the business was known as at the time (possibly Classic Bus North West or Catch22?). That seemed to run in 2018 using Routemaster RML 887 (202 UXJ), after the Chester Heritage Tour service with its replica London B-Type ceased. The Chester service had an advertised domain of SightseeingChester.com as seen in this photo on Flickr, matching the format of Manchester and now Cardiff.

Catch22Bus RML 887 swapping Chelsea for Chester

During its last years in normal passenger service on routes 14 and 22, RML 887 was based at London General's Putney (AF) bus garage where for the last two months of service with London General in 2005 the vehicle was treated to a very attractive 1920s style of LGOC red/black/white/light grey...

www.flickr.com

For the record, I'm not claiming these companies or individuals involved are cowboys - just expanding on the above discussion!

The Facebook page for the 'Sightseeing Birmingham' operation remained up for quite a while after they ceased operating that service but now seems to have gone, although there's still some sites showing the existence of the service. Think they were planning on doing a 'Sightseeing Leeds' tour at one point quite a while back but never came to fruition either.

That’s a story I missed, heaven knows how. Weird as they otherwise seemed to not be cowboys, their buses seemed on the face of it to be looked after. All the gear and no idea?

Speaking of North East cowboys, there was one who was based out of a garage next to Prudhoe station. Their name completely escapes me. Tried to compete with Go North East and Arriva on the Newcastle-Prudhoe corridor using a succession of clapped-out Optare Deltas and also won a load of tenders for the likes of the 74 (Newcastle-Matfen). Stayed around both far longer than I expected and far longer than they should have.

Was it Kimberly Coaches / Tyne Blue Line? A quick look on Flickr shows them as having some Deltas in a blue/orange livery and some Solos/Metroriders in blue which was seemingly just minimal bits of the previous owners livery painted over.