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GEML Capacity Study - possible new locos and Mk3 refurbishment?

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AndyLandy

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From the CP4 track access charges:

5-car 444: 11.07 + 8.18 + 8.18 + 8.18 + 11.07 = £44.28 (£88.56 for a 10-car)
90+9Mk3+DVT: 40.58 + 9x 6.53 + 10.60 = £109.95

The EMU is most definitely cheaper for track access charges.
 
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AndyLandy

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Comparing a 5 car to a 9 car +90+dvt isnt a fair comparison what about 2 5 car 444's would be about same capacity?

Check what I wrote again:

From the CP4 track access charges:

5-car 444: 11.07 + 8.18 + 8.18 + 8.18 + 11.07 = £44.28 (£88.56 for a 10-car)
90+9Mk3+DVT: 40.58 + 9x 6.53 + 10.60 = £109.95

The EMU is most definitely cheaper for track access charges.
 

tbtc

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From the CP4 track access charges:

5-car 444: 11.07 + 8.18 + 8.18 + 8.18 + 11.07 = £44.28 (£88.56 for a 10-car)
90+9Mk3+DVT: 40.58 + 9x 6.53 + 10.60 = £109.95

The EMU is most definitely cheaper for track access charges.

Comparing a 5 car to a 9 car +90+dvt isnt a fair comparison what about 2 5 car 444's would be about same capacity?

AndyLandy *is* comparing a ten coach 444 (£88:56) to a nine coach rake of Mk3s with loco (£109:95) - and the EMU is cheaper.

The EMU would also have more space for seating because there'd be ten coaches on the platform (rather than the space taken up by the loco plus the space taken up by the DVT).
 

Dave1987

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AndyLandy *is* comparing a ten coach 444 (£88:56) to a nine coach rake of Mk3s with loco (£109:95) - and the EMU is cheaper.

The EMU would also have more space for seating because there'd be ten coaches on the platform (rather than the space taken up by the loco plus the space taken up by the DVT).

Please please please read the Atkins report. The class 444 is not suitable for Norwich intercity services due to the lack of catering facilities. As it says the most cost effective way of providing a better service on GEML is to use traxx loco's, do a chiltern style refurb to mk3's and convert dvts to provide extra seating.
 

jopsuk

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The 444s as currently configured have an underused minibuffet. The catering onboard the Norwich intercities is basic enough that it could be served by one or two such facilities on each train- and of course, new builds could have larger facilities.
 

captainbigun

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Read the previous posts!!

Any new order wouldn't be for 444. You couldn't manafacture those now as they wouldn't comply with current Group Standards.

You would be ordering an EMU with 23m coaches specification as required. Buffet counter no problem.

The reports says what it was asked to say. As I have previously said, the direction given to Atkins was pretty clear....mostly the Norwich in 90 mafia who seem to forget that there are many other users of the route who contribute a lot more revenue!

For whatever reason Norwich has decided it must have an IC service with what it perceives to be IC stock. Fact is that it is little different to Bournemouth and something like a 444 suitably specified is just the job.
 

AndyLandy

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Please please please read the Atkins report. The class 444 is not suitable for Norwich intercity services due to the lack of catering facilities. As it says the most cost effective way of providing a better service on GEML is to use traxx loco's, do a chiltern style refurb to mk3's and convert dvts to provide extra seating.

I did, and I'm not convinced by it, it has to be said.

A Mk3 refurb will cost £250k, so you're looking at £2M for a rake of 8 vehicles. Plus how much for a new TRAXX locomotive? I'm sure I've seen them quoted at £3M. So you'd spend £5M on a train to last you 10 years, or you could spend £14M on a train to last you 40.

The buffet issue is a complete red herring. The SWT 444s do have buffets (albeit micro ones), it's just the case that SWT rarely (if ever) use them in service. And even if that's genuinely not adequate, I'm sure that Siemens would be capable of building the vehicles with a larger buffet area if necessary. It would just need to be included as part of the tender.
 

tbtc

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Please please please read the Atkins report. The class 444 is not suitable for Norwich intercity services due to the lack of catering facilities. As it says the most cost effective way of providing a better service on GEML is to use traxx loco's, do a chiltern style refurb to mk3's and convert dvts to provide extra seating.

So you accept that EMUs would mean lower track access charges?

People can struggle to separate "EMU" from "high density commuter train", but there's no reason you can't have EMUs built with buffets and an interior similar to a Chiltern Mk3.
 

Dave1987

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I did, and I'm not convinced by it, it has to be said.

A Mk3 refurb will cost £250k, so you're looking at £2M for a rake of 8 vehicles. Plus how much for a new TRAXX locomotive? I'm sure I've seen them quoted at £3M. So you'd spend £5M on a train to last you 10 years, or you could spend £14M on a train to last you 40.

The buffet issue is a complete red herring. The SWT 444s do have buffets (albeit micro ones), it's just the case that SWT rarely (if ever) use them in service. And even if that's genuinely not adequate, I'm sure that Siemens would be capable of building the vehicles with a larger buffet area if necessary. It would just need to be included as part of the tender.

Ok well first of all the mk3 buffet is a full size one. Don't think a "mini buffet" is up to the job on an intercity route.

Secondly you are suggesting scrapping coaches that are perfectly good. Has it got to that stage where we scrap something just because we want a shiny new train? Besides who says a new £14m emu would last for 40 years! The current mk3's are only 25 years old and you are already saying scrap em!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So you accept that EMUs would mean lower track access charges?

People can struggle to separate "EMU" from "high density commuter train", but there's no reason you can't have EMUs built with buffets and an interior similar to a Chiltern Mk3.

I don't accept it but I'm not going to carry on in circles. Porterbrook in their publication state loco+9 coaches+dvt does less track damage than an emu. If that was incorrect they would have been pulled up on it and would have to withdraw the publication.
 

captainbigun

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The Mk3s are nearer 35 years old!

If you keep the Mk3s they are a stop gap, at best. You can overhaul them, but there will still be some risk. Who knows what may happen to them in ten years. They might require further spend.

As I said above, I'm not sure why Norwich warrants its apparent IC status. The reality is there's no at seat service to speak of now and that a buffet counter is sufficient. Some of the Mk3 sets don't have an RFM as it is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't accept it but I'm not going to carry on in circles. Porterbrook in their publication state loco+9 coaches+dvt does less track damage than an emu. If that was incorrect they would have been pulled up on it and would have to withdraw the publication.

Despite being pointed at the current prices that NR charge?!!

As I have also pointed out previously, any comparison is with existing stock of designs at least 10 years old. THAT IS NOT WHAT WOULD BE ORDERED!

PB will have had to enter some guess work as there is no UK TRAXX from which to determine exact track force performance. They have stated an opinion which they are entitled to.
 

D365

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Please please please read the Atkins report. The class 444 is not suitable for Norwich intercity services due to the lack of catering facilities. As it says the most cost effective way of providing a better service on GEML is to use traxx loco's, do a chiltern style refurb to mk3's and convert dvts to provide extra seating.

I personally want to see the diversity of the Anglia EMU fleet reduced - replace post-Crossrail 315s and 360s with refurbished ex-GN and ex-SX 317s, as well as ex-FCC and possibly ex-Midland 321s. But that's another story!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Simply refurbish Mk3s and DVTs and replace 90s if expenditure is justified by improved performance of Traxx. Take on the Pretendolino or another Mk3 rake to cover for these works and (eventually) replace the 321 diagram. Would modern electric locomotion be suitable elsewhere, e.g. 91 replacement as opposed to 30*9 IEP.

Mk3, and probably Mk4 as well, can be worked to last until 2035, it seems. Although Porterbrook seem to be a tad mixed up in their publication, with regards to track access charges. Perhaps redundant carriages from HSTs would be useful on preserved railways and charters/spot-hires. Who knows?!

If we're having any new InterCity trains, please standardise and make it IEP! And isn't King's Lynn a similar distance, if not slightly more?
 
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AndyLandy

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Ok well first of all the mk3 buffet is a full size one. Don't think a "mini buffet" is up to the job on an intercity route.

Does that mean Waterloo-Weymouth isn't an Intercity route? And as said before, I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of Siemens (or Alstom/Bombardier/whoever) to make bigger buffets in their EMU designs. I truly think this is a red herring.

Secondly you are suggesting scrapping coaches that are perfectly good. Has it got to that stage where we scrap something just because we want a shiny new train? Besides who says a new £14m emu would last for 40 years! The current mk3's are only 25 years old and you are already saying scrap em!!

The Mk3s came into service between 1975 and 1988. Let's split the difference and call it an average of 1982. Given the time these things take, it'll be 2017 before we'll be receiving the new EMUs. So, an average of 35 years in service. That's not bad going! At that point, is it worth investing in DDA-compliance to get another 5-10 years, or would you have been better off with new trains?

I don't accept it but I'm not going to carry on in circles. Porterbrook in their publication state loco+9 coaches+dvt does less track damage than an emu. If that was incorrect they would have been pulled up on it and would have to withdraw the publication.

I have to say, I'm skeptical on that fact. I agree the Mk3s are pretty light on the track, but the Class 90s certainly aren't! Perhaps a new-build TRAXX might be much better, but I couldn't say for sure without any numbers, and I'd be surprised if it's not similar to other locomotives. And don't forget that as observed above, Porterbrook have a vested interest in making the Mk3s go on longer.
 

Class83

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Class 444 type multiple units would seem quite sensible for the Norwich-London route, probably the most similar route I can think of is Aberdeen-Edinburgh, which is operated by 170s (sometimes attached to a 158) with a trolley.

Now while I'm not sure the 170s are exactly the best train for the Scotrail Express services, those routes, along with London-Norwich and Transpennine Express all probably would benefit from 5-6 car units with a snack bar style buffet. Which would allow the mark 3s to be retired in a few years and the 170s and 185s to be used on other services.
 

ainsworth74

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Ok well first of all the mk3 buffet is a full size one. Don't think a "mini buffet" is up to the job on an intercity route.

A full size buffet (that doesn't feature on all the rakes) that isn't used because this is the current catering offering on GA. What there needs a full size buffet? The small buffets that can be found on trains like 180s, 221s, 222s, FGW High Density HSTs and so on are more than capable of providing that level of catering.

And more to the point you continue to be labouring under the impression that MUs can't have full kitchens fitted even if the purchaser desires them. This is clearly wrong, take a look at a 390 or a 222, kitchens capable of producing a full range of catering. That the Mk3 sets have an RFM does not mark it them out as special in anyway.

I don't accept it but I'm not going to carry on in circles.

So you and Porterbrook know better than Network Rail what Network Rail's track access charges are? Again don't you think Porterbrook might have some sort of vested interest in ensuring that they market their Mk3s as being all singing and all dancing? Forgive me but I'm not particularly inclined to give over on blind faith my view on this matter thanks to a piece of marketing material. And that is what it is.
 

tbtc

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The only quote I can find on the Porterbrook brochure is that:

Vehicle maintenance is simplified by all traction equipment being on the locomotive, and track access charges are low

So "low" may refer to only the coaches (since unpowered coaches have low track access charges)? A little disingenuous when the unpowered coaches would need some form of locomotive to haul them - and that's when the total costs go up, making it more expensive than the EMU option. Lies, damned lies and marketing brochures ;)
 

ryan125hst

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In any case, scrapping any more Mk3s is a complete waste when we have arguably never been so desperate for capacity.

How many Mk3s have been scrapped? I thought that they were all, more or less, still in service. Some have been converted into HST trailers for Grand Central, and then there's Chiltern's, the WAG, the DB Managers train, railtour stock and, of course, Greater Anglia.

Haven't most of the Mark 2 coaches (Mk2 d,e,f) either been scrapped or sent to New Zealand and heavily refurbished/modified? I know we have a few rakes left that are used on railtours, but considering the shortage of rolling stock in the UK, it was a strange idea to scrap or export them when they could have refurbished them and used them on secondary routes currently operated by EMU's or DMU's.
 

Dave1987

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Does that mean Waterloo-Weymouth isn't an Intercity route? And as said before, I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of Siemens (or Alstom/Bombardier/whoever) to make bigger buffets in their EMU designs. I truly think this is a red herring.



The Mk3s came into service between 1975 and 1988. Let's split the difference and call it an average of 1982. Given the time these things take, it'll be 2017 before we'll be receiving the new EMUs. So, an average of 35 years in service. That's not bad going! At that point, is it worth investing in DDA-compliance to get another 5-10 years, or would you have been better off with new trains?




I have to say, I'm skeptical on that fact. I agree the Mk3s are pretty light on the track, but the Class 90s certainly aren't! Perhaps a new-build TRAXX might be much better, but I couldn't say for sure without any numbers, and I'd be surprised if it's not similar to other locomotives. And don't forget that as observed above, Porterbrook have a vested interest in making the Mk3s go on longer.

Ok two points, first I pretty sure that the the mk3's currently in service are the later built ones so I think they are closer to 25 years old currently. These plans are probably going to be enacted in the long 15 year franchise which starts in 2014 so they will be around the 27/28 year old mark. Still loads of life left in them.

Secondly I severely doubt any new train built now would last anywhere near 40 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I see is our 87's that were supposedly "knackered" quite happily being used in bulgaria. We seem very very keen to just scrap everything and spend huge amounts of money on complete new fleets. I just dont understand this especially when the country in essentially broke.

A Lot of the German suburban stock is loco hauled with dvt and it certainly isnt brand new stock
 
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E-Rail

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Surely a 5 car would struggle with loadings even in the off peak on the Norwich mainline runs especially if two carriages needed to be configured with First and mini buffet/guard office. If they were to run in ten car formation at peaks, this would mean doubling the number of buffet staff unless FC customers are expected top walk the length of one of the units to reach the 'live' buffet and claim their freebies. And if they ended up running in pairs for most of the day, then surely the whole point of an EMU is lost?

Incidentally, how did Anglia's 170s cope with loadings when they were first introduced with the half hourly timetable?
 

F1Ken

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The Mk3s are nearer 35 years old!

If you keep the Mk3s they are a stop gap, at best. You can overhaul them, but there will still be some risk. Who knows what may happen to them in ten years. They might require further spend.

As I said above, I'm not sure why Norwich warrants its apparent IC status. The reality is there's no at seat service to speak of now and that a buffet counter is sufficient. Some of the Mk3 sets don't have an RFM as it is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Despite being pointed at the current prices that NR charge?!!

As I have also pointed out previously, any comparison is with existing stock of designs at least 10 years old. THAT IS NOT WHAT WOULD BE ORDERED!

PB will have had to enter some guess work as there is no UK TRAXX from which to determine exact track force performance. They have stated an opinion which they are entitled to.

Not really a problem in my opinion. The London Underground A stock was 50 years old. I think the MK3's can easily do another 15 years. Electric doors refurb them they will be fine. I read something some ware that they are structurally better off than they first thought.

It would be criminal to scrap them and wast more money. I also think it would be criminal to scrap the Class 90's. GA should get there hands on a couple of redundant Class 90's sitting around not doing anything to use as stand ins and Spare parts. They could also get the Pretendilino set and get another 90 for that. It would mean they could stand down the poor 321 that has to go all the way to Norwich!

I this day and age everyone wants new and shiny things. They want the news Mobile Phone or games console. We must make sure we don't do this with the railways. Getting rid of okay stock is throwing money away. the 90's are only 25 years old! They should last 40 at least. I always thing 40 years is the minimum for a train and maybe 20 for a bus.
 

captainbigun

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It would be criminal to scrap them and wast more money. I also think it would be criminal to scrap the Class 90's. GA should get there hands on a couple of redundant Class 90's sitting around not doing anything to use as stand ins and Spare parts. They could also get the Pretendilino set and get another 90 for that. It would mean they could stand down the poor 321 that has to go all the way to Norwich!

They don't need the spare parts. They don't generally have a shortage of locos. Like it or not, the 90s are going to go.

They don't need the Pretendalino. The Norwich diagram is a unit for a reason, look at the stopping pattern and where people get off it. It's units because that is the best thing for the job. You couldn't run that diagram with a Mk3 set because of the stopping pattern and dwell times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not really a problem in my opinion. The London Underground A stock was 50 years old. I think the MK3's can easily do another 15 years. Electric doors refurb them they will be fine. I read something some ware that they are structurally better off than they first thought.

Well, it is a problem, because there has been horrendous corrosion.

A 100-125mph mobile loo spewing corrosive effluant on itself does have an impact. Comparison to a 50mph commuter unit isn't a fair comparison.

You are right, they can be overhauled and they will do 15 years....but then what. You'll have to buy units anyway.

Why not buy get a uniform fleet, at least from a component perspective. There's going to be savings in that approach.

The bottom line with all of this debate is that the DfT will ultimately decide, and that currently looks to be heading towards units.
 

Dave1987

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They don't need the spare parts. They don't generally have a shortage of locos. Like it or not, the 90s are going to go.

They don't need the Pretendalino. The Norwich diagram is a unit for a reason, look at the stopping pattern and where people get off it. It's units because that is the best thing for the job. You couldn't run that diagram with a Mk3 set because of the stopping pattern and dwell times.

Precisely the problem they are only 20-25 years old and we are gonna scrap them. Do you not think that is mad?
 

captainbigun

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Surely a 5 car would struggle with loadings even in the off peak on the Norwich mainline runs especially if two carriages needed to be configured with First and mini buffet/guard office. If they were to run in ten car formation at peaks, this would mean doubling the number of buffet staff unless FC customers are expected top walk the length of one of the units to reach the 'live' buffet and claim their freebies. And if they ended up running in pairs for most of the day, then surely the whole point of an EMU is lost?

Incidentally, how did Anglia's 170s cope with loadings when they were first introduced with the half hourly timetable?

Off peak loadings are pretty light, 5 cars would be plenty. You'd only have Norwich/Diss/Stowmarket passengers with no other option, 5 cars, half hourly seems reasonable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Precisely the problem they are only 20-25 years old and we are gonna scrap them. Do you not think that is mad?

Mk3as were built mid-70s!!

There are only a few FOs that are later build.

For me, it's not about madness it's about what is best for a route that is absolutely crammed and every bum on a seat is a bonus. There's little that can be done to increase capacity short to medium term. So removing a loco and a DVT has benefits. At the same time your getting something that will improve timings and will be able to regen reducing costs.
 

D365

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They don't need the spare parts. They don't generally have a shortage of locos. Like it or not, the 90s are going to go.

They don't need the Pretendalino. The Norwich diagram is a unit for a reason, look at the stopping pattern and where people get off it. It's units because that is the best thing for the job. You couldn't run that diagram with a Mk3 set because of the stopping pattern and dwell times.

If the 90s were to be replaced, it wouldn't be because of their age or any technical problems. A new locomotive such as the much-suggested Bombardier Traxx would allow for faster acceleration along with a a number of other benefits, including higher top speed and more seats when combined with a new DVT.

Well, it is a problem, because there has been horrendous corrosion.

A 100-125mph mobile loo spewing corrosive effluant on itself does have an impact. Comparison to a 50mph commuter unit isn't a fair comparison.

You are right, they can be overhauled and they will do 15 years....but then what. You'll have to buy units anyway.

Why not buy get a uniform fleet, at least from a component perspective. There's going to be savings in that approach.

The bottom line with all of this debate is that the DfT will ultimately decide, and that currently looks to be heading towards units.

Where do you get this about corrosion problems? If there was a problem then there would be plans to sort this out. Maybe 2035 is a bit extreme but we may as well use our assets well. If and when in the future the Mk3s are to be withdrawn, released Traxx (or 90..?) locomotives will surely find use across a further electrified UK rail network or on the European mainland where plenty are operating today.
 

Dave1987

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They don't need the spare parts. They don't generally have a shortage of locos. Like it or not, the 90s are going to go.

They don't need the Pretendalino. The Norwich diagram is a unit for a reason, look at the stopping pattern and where people get off it. It's units because that is the best thing for the job. You couldn't run that diagram with a Mk3 set because of the stopping pattern and dwell times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well, it is a problem, because there has been horrendous corrosion.

A 100-125mph mobile loo spewing corrosive effluant on itself does have an impact. Comparison to a 50mph commuter unit isn't a fair comparison.

You are right, they can be overhauled and they will do 15 years....but then what. You'll have to buy units anyway.

Why not buy get a uniform fleet, at least from a component perspective. There's going to be savings in that approach.

The bottom line with all of this debate is that the DfT will ultimately decide, and that currently looks to be heading towards units.

Well by that logic why not scrap pendo's/voyagers/158's in fact the whole lot and buy new units cos your gonna have to scrap them eventually so why not just do it now? Lol
 

tbtc

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Surely a 5 car would struggle with loadings even in the off peak on the Norwich mainline runs

You could run five coaches north of Ipswich most of the day, which would save carting extra coaches at the quieter end of the route

if they ended up running in pairs for most of the day, then surely the whole point of an EMU is lost?

Plenty of multiple units spend all day coupled together
 

captainbigun

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If the 90s were to be replaced, it wouldn't be because of their age or any technical problems. A new locomotive such as the much-suggested Bombardier Traxx would allow for faster acceleration along with a a number of other benefits, including higher top speed and more seats when combined with a new DVT.

It's definitely when. TRAXX would indeed greatly improve performance, though I can't see an increase in line speed any time soon.

Where do you get this about corrosion problems? If there was a problem then there would be plans to sort this out. Maybe 2035 is a bit extreme but we may as well use our assets well. If and when in the future the Mk3s are to be withdrawn, released Traxx (or 90..?) locomotives will surely find use across a further electrified UK rail network or on the European mainland where plenty are operating today.

Corrosion on Mk3 is not new news. A lot of the rebuild costs are associated with repairing the corrision, it's all doable and understood.

Yes, Beacon are confident that they would have no issue in exporting TRAXX to the mainland. As for the 90s, I believe their time will be up.
 

D365

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Well by that logic why not scrap pendo's/voyagers/158's in fact the whole lot and buy new units cos your gonna have to scrap them eventually so why not just do it now? Lol

It's definitely when. TRAXX would indeed greatly improve performance, though I can't see an increase in line speed any time soon.

Corrosion on Mk3 is not new news. A lot of the rebuild costs are associated with repairing the corrision, it's all doable and understood.

Yes, Beacon are confident that they would have no issue in exporting TRAXX to the mainland. As for the 90s, I believe their time will be up.

377/6 is a definite priority, never mind that the coaches are just coming together! What has Derby been doing to them <D

But anyway, refurbishing the Mk3s and providing Traxx locomotion, possibly with new DVTs, appears to be just a bit cheaper than replacing the rakes fully with EMUs. Do that when the wagons are finished. In 15 years, the 90 will be around the age that the 86 is currently, and those are still doing alright. We'll have some electric work by then.
 

NXEA!

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Being a regular GEML user, the 321's and Mark 3's are just the right stock in my opinion for the line, they just need a refurbishment! Watch out for 321448 emerging from Doncaster soon... But in my opinion, do the following and you're sorted:

Refurbish the 321's with 2+2 seating and a DDA toilet in the DTCO. Rip out the toilets in the TSOL, which gives a TSO, an MSO and DTSO just for standard class seating, nothing else. by my reckoning, you would only lose about 30-40 seats per unit which are quite often not used as a lot of people don't sit in the middle seats of the bays of 3. As for the Traction Package, it was ruled not cost effective to re-do the SWT 455's which still have EE507 motors over 40 years old, so I doubt you'll get new traction packages to replace 24 year old Brush Traction motors. Just overhaul them heavily and the bogie's too, and you're good to go I think. No need for A/C in my opinion either, expensive, space consuming which there might not be enough anyway, and even on hot summers days the hopper windows provide plenty of air!

Overhaul the Mark 3's as Chiltern have, new seats, DDA toilets, retention tanks and plug doors, get some TRAXX's to run with these, and new DVT's. There's a bit of a cascade opportunity here too. With the 5 360's from HEx being redundant soon, bung them together with the 21 FGE units, make 'em up to 110mph and deploy them on the ECML and deploy them on the residual peak-hour semi-fasts post-Thameslink. Cascade the 12 317's, and the 13 321's back to Anglia. With LM eventually getting the 350/4's from TPE after a few years, you can displace the 7 321's here, over to Anglia too. The 20 321's replace the 20 diagrammed 360's with a shortfall of one set which I'm sure can be made up. The 12 317's go to West Anglia along with the 9 317/7's, which can replace the 18 or so 315's in use on Enfield and Chingford services. This provides the whole fleet of 61 315's which can be moved onto the Valley's or wherever they are needed. There might be around 3 317's spare once you've taken this into account, so you could diagram a triplet on the GEML in the peak which allows 3 321's to strengthen elsewhere.

With this plan you get one fleet for the GEML outer-suburban services which are fit for purpose and inexpensive to keep going, and I'm sure you reduce maintenance costs and diagramming complexity and train-crew competency issues by having just one fleet. Same with the WA by eradicating the 315's, and you do this all and providing a little extra capacity for a fraction of the cost of ordering new trains! :)
 

ryan125hst

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Refurbish the 321's with 2+2 seating and a DDA toilet in the DTCO. Rip out the toilets in the TSOL, which gives a TSO, an MSO and DTSO just for standard class seating, nothing else. by my reckoning, you would only lose about 30-40 seats per unit which are quite often not used as a lot of people don't sit in the middle seats of the bays of 3.

So they would end up with only 1 toilet? There will be some unhappy passengers if it locks itself out of use due to a full retention tank!
 
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