London-Southampton May 25th

Drimnagh Road · 5 Mar 2013

Very simple question really;

London-Southampton fares on the morning of Saturday May 25th are showing at £37+, e.g. the 10:05 ex Waterloo, yet to go further Brockenhurst on the same train is £10.

Why???

RailUK Forums

cjohnson · 5 Mar 2013

SWT do Advances to Brockenhurst, but not to Southampton. This rather jaunty map shows where on the network the cheap Advances are available to.

LexyBoy · 5 Mar 2013

This must be one of the most remarked-upon, and attempted-to-exploit, examples of this. See also here.

There are examples all over, though usually with stations slightly further apart, e.g. I can get an Advance Paddington-Oxford on the 0700 on 1/5 for £9.50, changing at Didcot, but if I wanted to alight at Didcot it'd be the £28.70 Anytime Day Single.

Goatboy · 5 Mar 2013

Its hardly suprising people try to exploit it, is it? If the train has sufficient capacity to Brockenhurst to justify £10 Advances then it also has that capacity to Southampton, too. Yet more examples of ticketing madness that isn't in the interests of providing the public service the railways arguably should exist for.

You can't get off at Southampton and you won't get through the barriers but for the saving involved its well worth getting off at Brockenhurst and taking a trip back through to Southampton for the additional cost of a Brockenhurst to Southampton single. Bonkers but there you go.

Greenback · 5 Mar 2013

Goatboy said:
Its hardly suprising people try to exploit it, is it? If the train has sufficient capacity to Brockenhurst to justify £10 Advances then it also has that capacity to Southampton, too. Yet more examples of ticketing madness that isn't in the interests of providing the public service the railways arguably should exist for.

You can't get off at Southampton and you won't get through the barriers but for the saving involved its well worth getting off at Brockenhurst and taking a trip back through to Southampton for the additional cost of a Brockenhurst to Southampton single. Bonkers but there you go.

I agree that railways should be run as a public service, but it is probably true to say that they have not been since at least the final days of BR.

In fact, very little in the UK is run as a public service any more.

It may be bonkers (well, it IS bonkers!) but at least passengers have a choice. Removing the Advance fares would remove that choice, though I personally would be in favour of higher Advance fares and a lower differential between Advances and walk up fares.

JamesRowden · 5 Mar 2013

Greenback said:
I agree that railways should be run as a public service, but it is probably true to say that they have not been since at least the final days of BR.

In fact, very little in the UK is run as a public service any more.

It may be bonkers (well, it IS bonkers!) but at least passengers have a choice. Removing the Advance fares would remove that choice, though I personally would be in favour of higher Advance fares and a lower differential between Advances and walk up fares.

How about having a rule that if advance fares are available for a journey, that any part of that journey should have an advance fare available that is not any more expensive?

maniacmartin · 5 Mar 2013

How about allowing BoJ on Advances, but not allowing broken journeys to be resumed (ie allow stopping short), similar to the rule on the London Underground with cross-London Transfers.

NSEFAN · 5 Mar 2013

JamesRowden said:
How about having a rule that if advance fares are available for a journey, that any part of that journey should have an advance fare available that is not any more expensive?

Advance fares are a form of yield management for the TOCs. SWT evidently want to encourage more leisure journeys from the city to Brockenhurst onwards, but have plenty of traffic from Southampton as it is.

Allowing BoJ on advance fares or forcing cheap advances for the whole route would undermine this system. In practice, BoJ restrictions are unenforceable at some locations such as Southampton Airport, unless there is a revenue block in force!

Greenback · 5 Mar 2013

NSEFAN said:
Advance fares are a form of yield management for the TOCs. SWT evidently want to encourage more leisure journeys from the city to Brockenhurst onwards, but have plenty of traffic from Southampton as it is.

Indeed. Advance fares need to be looked at as a means of revenue maximisation for TOC's. I doub tthat there will be much additional revenue to be made by introducing cheap Advance fares to Southampton, whereas I can well imagine there will be quite a lot of income lost or abstracted.

NSEFAN said:
Allowing BoJ on advance fares or forcing cheap advances for the whole route would undermine this system. In practice, BoJ restrictions are unenforceable at some locations such as Southampton Airport, unless there is a revenue block in force!

Again, I agree. The whole concept of Advance tickets revolves around highly restricted point to point tickets. If these are less restricted, they essentially become a new category of tickets, but no doubt 'New Advances' of some description will be introduced into the mix anyway.

MikeWh · 5 Mar 2013

Drimnagh Road said:
Very simple question really;

London-Southampton fares on the morning of Saturday May 25th are showing at £37+, e.g. the 10:05 ex Waterloo, yet to go further Brockenhurst on the same train is £10.

Why???

Can you wait until 45 days before travel to book? If yes then visit www.megatrain.com. If you're quick enough you should be able to get tickets for £1 each way, plus a booking fee for the whole transaction. Each days quota is released at midnight 45 days before, so today you can book up to April 19th. Looking at Sat 13th April after 6 days on sale there are still some £1 tickets, though not at very sociable times, while others are available for £6, £10 and £15. Only certain trains are available (generally 39 past the hour from Waterloo and 55 past the hour from Southampton) so you might have to adjust your plans a little, but it's well worth it if you can grab a pound ticket.

johnnycache · 5 Mar 2013

I work for Southern

There are Southern Advances from £5 if you fancy the scenic route (Arundel, Bosham etc)

JamesRowden · 5 Mar 2013

Greenback said:
Indeed. Advance fares need to be looked at as a means of revenue maximisation for TOC's. I doub tthat there will be much additional revenue to be made by introducing cheap Advance fares to Southampton, whereas I can well imagine there will be quite a lot of income lost or abstracted.

The solution to the problem of lost revenue through making advance tickets available would be to make the advance tickets more expensive. Why would there be such a large difference in price that people would be willing to pay for the two journeys anyway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Raising the price of the advance tickets may allow the company to get back the money that might be being lost through people getting the £10 advance tickets and a ticket from somewhere near Southampton to Southampton (to get through the barriers) and counting on not getting caught.

swt_passenger · 5 Mar 2013

Goatboy said:
Its hardly suprising people try to exploit it, is it? If the train has sufficient capacity to Brockenhurst to justify £10 Advances then it also has that capacity to Southampton, too.

There IS capacity on the hourly semifast trains to Southampton. But for reasons known only to themselves they only use it for Megatrain ticketing. Doesn't Megatrain give most of the benefits of an Advance?

wibble · 5 Mar 2013

Goatboy said:
Its hardly suprising people try to exploit it, is it? If the train has sufficient capacity to Brockenhurst to justify £10 Advances then it also has that capacity to Southampton, too. Yet more examples of ticketing madness that isn't in the interests of providing the public service the railways arguably should exist for.

You can't get off at Southampton and you won't get through the barriers but for the saving involved its well worth getting off at Brockenhurst and taking a trip back through to Southampton for the additional cost of a Brockenhurst to Southampton single. Bonkers but there you go.

I think you make a very good point - either get rid of Advance fares altogether or put them in for every point-to-point journey. Fancy an Advance fare from Waterloo to Vauxhall?

Goatboy · 5 Mar 2013

NSEFAN said:
Advance fares are a form of yield management for the TOCs. SWT evidently want to encourage more leisure journeys from the city to Brockenhurst onwards, but have plenty of traffic from Southampton as it is.

Its 20 minutes further down the line - if there is massive amounts of spare capacity from London to Brockenhurst then there is the same amount of capacity from London to Southampton on that train.

Drimnagh Road · 5 Mar 2013

Thanks folks. Have got some good advice both above and in private. One thing i forgot about is that Southampton Parkway is barrierless, potential to get off there, buy a ticket into Central.

Goatboy · 5 Mar 2013

Drimnagh Road said:
Thanks folks. Have got some good advice both above and in private. One thing i forgot about is that Southampton Parkway is barrierless, potential to get off there, buy a ticket into Central.

This is breaching the conditions of your ticket so nobody is going to suggest you do this.

LexyBoy · 6 Mar 2013

Drimnagh Road said:
Thanks folks. Have got some good advice both above and in private. One thing i forgot about is that Southampton Parkway is barrierless, potential to get off there, buy a ticket into Central.

This is arguably breaching the conditions of your ticket so nobody is going to suggest you do this.

Better is to buy the ticket back from Brockenhurst and ask the guard, if you see them, whether they will allow you to get off at Soton. Worst case is they say no and you have a slightly longer trip.

cookiescrumble · 6 Mar 2013

LexyBoy said:
Better is to buy the ticket back from Brockenhurst and ask the guard, if you see them, whether they will allow you to get off at Soton. Worst case is they say no and you have a slightly longer trip.

I can't see the guard having a problem with this to be honest, the company has still got all the fares due and all it saves in inconvenience for the passenger.

You could buy the single from Brockenhurst to Southampton from the office at Waterloo or ask the guard as he comes through the train.

jb · 6 Mar 2013

LexyBoy said:
Better is to buy the ticket back from Brockenhurst and ask the guard, if you see them, whether they will allow you to get off at Soton. Worst case is they say no and you have a slightly longer trip.

But of course beware the possibility of the guard saying yes (worse, saying an extra ticket is not necessary), gateline staff saying no, and finding yourself in a "man on the train said it was OK" scenario.

cookiescrumble · 6 Mar 2013

jb said:
But of course beware the possibility of the guard saying yes (worse, saying an extra ticket is not necessary), gateline staff saying no, and finding yourself in a "man on the train said it was OK" scenario.

But if the OP has a Brockenhurst to Southampton single then this will work in the barriers. Then the gateline/revenue staff are none the wiser

.

Do not leave the train at Southampton without buying the single ticket...

LexyBoy · 6 Mar 2013

Yes, I meant to buy both tickets together before boarding the first train - I see this was not clear upon rereading my post. And don't try to use the Advance to get out!

NSEFAN · 6 Mar 2013

Goatboy said:
Its 20 minutes further down the line - if there is massive amounts of spare capacity from London to Brockenhurst then there is the same amount of capacity from London to Southampton on that train.

You wouldn't be saying that if you knew the area. Southampton-London is a lot busier than Weymouth/Bournemouth-London. Southampton is also an important interchange for FGW and Southern services in the area. Two stations being close together doesn't mean they will have similar traffic levels.

The fact that SWT are offering cheap advance fares further along the line means that they want to get more people using the trains between London and Brockenhurst/Bournemouth/Weymouth. If this also applied to Southampton then there would be advance fares for Southampton as well. As it happens this is not the case, since Southampton is busy enough already.

Goatboy · 6 Mar 2013

NSEFAN said:
You wouldn't be saying that if you knew the area. Southampton-London is a lot busier than Weymouth/Bournemouth-London. Southampton is also an important interchange for FGW and Southern services in the area. Two stations being close together doesn't mean they will have similar traffic levels.

No, but if its the SAME TRAIN involved then the capacity constraints are the same!

A London to Brockenhurst passenger is on the train from London to Southampton first!

Obviously Southampton has significantly higher traffic levels but if this is such that it fills the train to bursting from London then there isnt any special room for Brockenhurst passengers either, is there?

NSEFAN · 6 Mar 2013

Goatboy said:
No, but if its the SAME TRAIN involved then the capacity constraints are the same!

A London to Brockenhurst passenger is on the train from London to Southampton first!

Obviously Southampton has significantly higher traffic levels but if this is such that it fills the train to bursting from London then there isnt any special room for Brockenhurst passengers either, is there?

The trains aren't normally full to bursting outside the peaks, but they are well loaded. If there is spare room on the trains to/from Southampton then it makes sense to offer cheaper advance fares to encourage more people to use them.

The fact these cheap fares are offered from destinations further along the line than Southampton implies that SWT feel there's enough Southampton traffic already, but they'd like more people to/from Brockenhurst onwards to be using the train. A service is generally more profitable if you can get as many bums on seats as possible for the entirety of the journey, rather than having it empty half the time and crush loaded the other half.

I suspect there are other factors in this, too. Brockenhurst is more of a tourist attraction than Southampton, given it's in the new forest (the same can be said for places by the sea like Weymouth). Perhaps these advance fares are aimed mainly at tourists, rather than the commuting traffic from Southampton?

JamesRowden · 6 Mar 2013

NSEFAN said:
I suspect there are other factors in this, too. Brockenhurst is more of a tourist attraction than Southampton, given it's in the new forest (the same can be said for places by the sea like Weymouth). Perhaps these advance fares are aimed mainly at tourists, rather than the commuting traffic from Southampton?

I does seem like SWT are trying to take advantage of the fact that people from one area are willing to pay more to use the train than people from another area.

Goatboy · 6 Mar 2013

JamesRowden said:
I does seem like SWT are trying to take advantage of the fact that people from one area are willing to pay more to use the train than people from another area.

Thats exactly what they are doing. And to be fair they are entitled to do this and this is exactly how a responsible private company should operate.

It is, however, yet another example of what is wrong the way the network is currently run. We shouldnt blame SWT, we should blame the system.

Ability/Willingness to pay should not be part of the pricing model of a national rail network.

NSEFAN · 6 Mar 2013

Goatboy said:
Thats exactly what they are doing. And to be fair they are entitled to do this and this is exactly how a responsible private company should operate.

It is, however, yet another example of what is wrong the way the network is currently run. We shouldnt blame SWT, we should blame the system.

Ability/Willingness to pay should not be part of the pricing model of a national rail network.

Why not? If it makes the train more attractive for someone who would have otherwise not traveled, surely it generates more revenue for the system?

kieron · 6 Mar 2013

Goatboy said:
Thats exactly what they are doing. And to be fair they are entitled to do this and this is exactly how a responsible private company should operate.

It isn't what they're doing, though. The cheapest Southampton-London tickets cost less than the cheapest Brockenhurst-London ones, but the former is a Megatrain ticket, whereas the latter is an Advance one. Both ticket types are available for Bornemouth-London.

I'm sure it does all help Stagecoach's bottom line.

AndyLandy · 6 Mar 2013

Goatboy said:
Thats exactly what they are doing. And to be fair they are entitled to do this and this is exactly how a responsible private company should operate.

It is, however, yet another example of what is wrong the way the network is currently run. We shouldnt blame SWT, we should blame the system.

Ability/Willingness to pay should not be part of the pricing model of a national rail network.

Quoted for Truth. Everything in Goatboy's post reflects my own views on the matter.

You cannot get away from the fact that you have passengers paying more for less on the same trains, just due to this pricing model.

The best advice is to get a fare that's valid on the route, but priced by Southern, often much cheaper.

London-Southampton May 25th

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