Priority seat story

GodAtum · 9 May 2013

Let's say an elderly lady boards a rush hour Southern class 377 train. She asks people in standard if she could have a seat but they ignore her. A gentleman in first gives up his seat for her. Shortly later a RPI comes and fines her for sitting in 1st with a standard ticket.

Can she ask the RPI to force someone out of a priority seat?

RailUK Forums

aleph_0 · 9 May 2013

The important question is whether the passenger is able to stand for long periods (the implied assumption from your description is No, but this isn't made explicitly clear).

Assuming the passenger is unable to stand, then I would agree that the RPI is in dubious grounds morally, but fine legally.

I'm not convinced that the RPI has any direct authority to force a passenger out of a priority seat (especially since if the passenger in the seat states they need the seat, the RPI shouldn't try to find out exactly why), One would hope that a general announcement asking for someone to give up their seat would cause something to happen (but then one would hope such a scenario would ever happen in the first place). But I expect rail staff on here will have more wisdom as to how to handle such situations in practice.

hairyhandedfool · 9 May 2013

She can ask, but the RPI cannot force anyone to give up a seat.

tsr · 9 May 2013

If the elderly lady was genuinely unable to stand for the 20 minutes (IIRC) prescribed in the Southern Passenger Charter as the maximum reasonable standing time, and was honest with the RPI and explained the situation politely, then I would have expected the RPI to take the overall situation with the seating into account and not issue a PF if there were no readily available Standard Class seats. I would be very disappointed if I saw this happen and would be sure to make a note of the RPI's details (as permitted in the Penalty Fares Rules) and the train/location details, then contact Southern.

If you know which train you were on and can be sure about the overall circumstances, I would contact Southern and insist on a timely response and investigation. If they persist in querying whether or not the lady was able to stand, I would direct them to try to make medical enquiries with the person's doctor (if they are able to do this in accordance with the DPA, etc.).

Lastly, it's not just those who sit in the Priority Seats who should be chivalrous and offer their seats, and I am disappointed in the fact that no Standard Class passengers acted on the situation (come on, not everyone is asleep, facing the wrong way, or reading a complicated document!) but nonetheless, given the high number of Priority Seats on a 377, I cannot honestly believe that not one single occupant of one was able to give up their seat.

maniacmartin · 9 May 2013

Given the OP's post starts "Let's say", I presume that this is actually a hypothetical situation that hasn't actually been witnessed.

tsr · 9 May 2013

maniacmartin said:
Given the OP's post starts "Let's say", I presume that this is actually a hypothetical situation that hasn't actually been witnessed.

It does say that, yes. Hopefully, this hasn't been witnessed. This is why I specified what my reaction could well be to the situation (but whether or not actually hypothetical), as opposed to what I wished would be the case in the ideal world, what I would ask the OP to do, or what I know for definite that the RPI should have done.

My earlier post is perhaps written too firmly, and maybe this is due to the fact that all too often people start off with a "hypothetical" situation, and then explain that a whole real situation happened word-for-word in the same way - I shouldn't generalise, though, and I'm not doing so.

michael769 · 9 May 2013

hairyhandedfool said:
She can ask, but the RPI cannot force anyone to give up a seat.

Oh yes they can:

byelaw 13 said:
(1) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a
notice:
(i) prohibiting access; or
(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified
category of person only, except where he belongs to that
specified category.

Of course in practice, it would be hard for an RPI without medical training to be 100% sure that the person they were trying to evict was not in fact infirm themselves.

hairyhandedfool · 9 May 2013

Firstly, I don't believe this falls under Byelaw 13, secondly, I don't believe the RPI can challenge the person in the seat if they claim to be disabled.

chuckles1066 · 9 May 2013

Cherry_Picker said:
you would have hoped that somebody sitting in standard would have shown a bit of chivalry and allowed her a seat there

You're kidding me, this is Britain?

On my brief time of using the railways, a three-coach unit from Bristol Temple Meads to Bath Spa turned up with two coaches so it was every man for himself to board.......we were crammed in like sardines.

One woman fainted half-way to Keynsham (it WAS warm in there even though this was in the middle of winter) and once she'd come round it actually took a guy saying loudly "can any of you people sitting down give your seat up for this lady?" before anyone did.

Chrisgr31 · 9 May 2013

Priority seats on Southern are a total farce. What seems to happen is the young able bodied commuters push and shove to get on the train first and sit in these seats that offer extra room. Those that actually need a seat subsequently get on and then ask someone who is sitting in a normal seat if they'll give up their seat, which they do.

I see this happening probably once a month. Those who need a priority seat should be able to apply for a badge or similar from the ticket office which they could then wear, then at least everyone would know whether those in the priority seats need one or not.

All Southern trains have a huge supply of priority seats and there shouldnt be an occasion when a passenger in a non priority seat should have to move.

jon0844 · 9 May 2013

FCC do a badge/pass scheme.

transmanche · 9 May 2013

michael769 said:
Of course in practice, it would be hard for an RPI without medical training to be 100% sure that the person they were trying to evict was not in fact infirm themselves.

I think the problem here is "What's the definition of a priority seat - and who is entitled to use it?"

I've used priority seats when travelling on East Coast and Transpennine Express, because I'm quite tall - and the extra legroom means I am more comfortable. I can't say I've seen anything to suggest that this isn't allowed[*] - or that priority seats are reserved for elderly/infirm/pregnant/etc.

On LU the priority seats are clearly marked that they should be given up for 'those less able to stand'. And they're just the seats located nearest the doors - which seems like a good idea. (Whereas on TPE they're the seats furthest from the doors.)

* Although I may well just have not noticed a notice.

sheff1 · 9 May 2013

chuckles1066 said:
You're kidding me, this is Britain?

To be more specific, it is southern England.

185 · 9 May 2013

Priority Seat cannot be enforced, nor can wheelchair spaces. Not yet come across a situation where my passengers have refused to comply, quite the opposite actually.

Never forget having to announce on a packed solid full & standing train a "medical emergency in the front coach, can everyone in the aisle step to the left hand side to let staff through". And they did!

I have witnessed situations where uncooperative / obstructive passengers have been well and truly 'sorted out' (ahem) by other passengers.

Welshman · 9 May 2013

transmanche said:
I think the problem here is "What's the definition of a priority seat - and who is entitled to use it?"

I've used priority seats when travelling on East Coast and Transpennine Express, because I'm quite tall - and the extra legroom means I am more comfortable. I can't say I've seen anything to suggest that this isn't allowed[*] - or that priority seats are reserved for elderly/infirm/pregnant/etc.

Likewise, I've used priority seats on Virgin Voyagers for the extra legroom they afford [I'm 6' 2"], and often wondered about who is entitled to use them. Obviously, if someone who had difficulty walking, or who was pregnant came along, I'd give up the seat, but it is not always that simple.

Indeed on occasions, and without any request from me, the computer has booked me in to a priority seat when booking an advance ticket. So even the TOC itself doesn't seem to keep priority seats especially for those who turn-up on the day and have disabilities, but allocates them like any other seat.

All Line Rover · 9 May 2013

Chrisgr31 said:
Priority seats on Southern are a total farce. What seems to happen is the young able bodied commuters push and shove to get on the train first and sit in these seats that offer extra room.

Correction: That offer the amount of room that is to be expected, particularly, in my experience, on Pendolinos and Voyagers, which both offer pathetic legroom in 'normal' seats.

AlexS · 9 May 2013

185 said:
Priority Seat cannot be enforced, nor can wheelchair spaces. Not yet come across a situation where my passengers have refused to comply, quite the opposite actually.

Never forget having to announce on a packed solid full & standing train a "medical emergency in the front coach, can everyone in the aisle step to the left hand side to let staff through". And they did!

I have witnessed situations where uncooperative / obstructive passengers have been well and truly 'sorted out' (ahem) by other passengers.

Wheelchair spaces tend to be easy - if you ask people to move out of foldable seats, generally the assumption is that you have the authority to require them to move and so they do regardless, even if there's no authority there (although I thought there was some kind of rule or other that applies to them when a notice is provided designating it as a wheelchair space - certainly my company's guards have it as part of their duties to keep the space clear at all times for potential users). The easiest way is not to have fold up seats in the spaces.

If they're blocked up with luggage, it's a completely different matter and I've threatened to remove it from the train before, which is usually successful instantly.

johnnychips · 9 May 2013

On a packed HT service from Kings X when EC were bustituting, a lady fainted next to me. I immediately gave up my seat and I cannot imagine many other people not doing so. The guard forced his way through and gave her a bottle of water.

Be3G · 9 May 2013

Travelling to the hospital by train with my grandmother a few years ago, she was offered seats at all stages of the journey there and back, even on the packed (as it was then) Silverlink rush-hour train along the North London Line.

Deeps · 10 May 2013

I actually had a similar incident on BH Monday. My wife and I, both in our late 60s; me with a recent hip replacement, wife waiting for a knee job has a disabled card.
Board train in Plymouth, aim for and get Priority seats - bit more room to stretch "poorly" legs out/close to doors/loo. After a few minutes FGW man comes along and puts reserved tickets on our seats - we decide to stay put and see if anyone turns up to claim seats. Two young ladies (early 20s - ish) do so - we move. It struck both of us as a little strange that the Priority seats are allocated to "random" seat reservers. I wondered what the Train Manager would have done had we "claimed" these seats on the basis of the Priority notice and had refused to move.

To continue this tale: we did manage to find two more unreserved seats, occupied them, got comfy and settled back. The train leaves, after some minutes another FGW man comes along with a further fistful of reserved notices and puts two on our "new" seats. We were totally unimpressed as were many other people who like us had already moved once !! The gangway on the train was now jammed with people trying find unreserved seats and people with reserved tickets trying to persuade seat occupiers that the seat is theirs (because FGW men still haven't finished putting out reservation tickets !!) - we are then told that all the seats in coach E are unreserved - of course they don't tell us that coach E is already jammed to the rafters !

Two questions.

1. Should Priority seats be doled out as normal seat reservations ? Why have them at all in this case ?
2. ...and the old chestnut. Why do those who pay the cheapest fare get a reserved seat whilst those paying "full" fare are left to fend for themselves ?

Before anyone says so - I know it was a Bank Holiday and I know that trains get very busy then - but I don't think it changes the validity of my questions.......

SteamPower · 10 May 2013

michael769 said:
byelaw 13 said:

(1) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a
notice:
(i) prohibiting access; or
(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified
category of person only, except where he belongs to that
specified category.

Click to expand...

It's easy to say that but how is an RPI actually going to remove someone from a priority seat? Man handle them or get backup from btp? I doubt it.

johnnychips · 10 May 2013

Deeps said:
After a few minutes FGW man comes along and puts reserved tickets on our seats.... [After poster moves]... The train leaves, after some minutes another FGW man comes along with a further fistful of reserved notices and puts two on our "new" seats.

Is this normal? I thought reservation cards were put on before train leaves origin. Certainly reason why TPE users have to wait a few minutes at Manchester Airport before doors open.

badassunicorn · 10 May 2013

Surely if you just booked in advance as well, you'd get reserved seats? Everybody knows that mostly unless you book in advance you don't get a reserved seat so why does everybody always complain about it. You're not guaranteed a seat anyway, you're guaranteed to get from A-B.

ValleyLines142 · 10 May 2013

johnnychips said:
Is this normal? I thought reservation cards were put on before train leaves origin. Certainly reason why TPE users have to wait a few minutes at Manchester Airport before doors open.

It's not the normal procedure no; usually the crew put the reservation labels on before departure as you say. Although there may have been a possibility that the service was running late (which wouldn't surprise me with FGW!) and also there may have been a swap of units last minute due to a train fault or something (yet the reservation labels were still available).

But that is particularly annoying for passengers, especially to the poster above who had to move several times. I certainly wouldn't have been impressed!!

Bungle73 · 10 May 2013

Chrisgr31 said:
Priority seats on Southern are a total farce. What seems to happen is the young able bodied commuters push and shove to get on the train first and sit in these seats that offer extra room. Those that actually need a seat subsequently get on and then ask someone who is sitting in a normal seat if they'll give up their seat, which they do.

I see this happening probably once a month. Those who need a priority seat should be able to apply for a badge or similar from the ticket office which they could then wear, then at least everyone would know whether those in the priority seats need one or not.

All Southern trains have a huge supply of priority seats and there shouldnt be an occasion when a passenger in a non priority seat should have to move.

I'm not sure what you're saying? You get on the train, and then sit in the first seat that takes your fancy.

Deeps said:
2. ...and the old chestnut. Why do those who pay the cheapest fare get a reserved seat whilst those paying "full" fare are left to fend for themselves ?

Before anyone says so - I know it was a Bank Holiday and I know that trains get very busy then - but I don't think it changes the validity of my questions.......

Oh FFS, not this again! Firstly the person on the "cheapest" fare has probably booked months in advance AND has very tight restrictions on their ticket, ie they can only catch that train, and secondly the person paying "full" fare CAN book a seat.....if they can be bothered. Why some people seem to think that the fact that someone has paid more than someone else should be the over-riding factor in whether they are entitled to a seat, and the fact the other person has made other sacrifices in lack of flexibility and booking months in advance should count for nothing I have no idea......especially, as I just said, ANYONE can get a reservation.

Flamingo · 10 May 2013

Deeps, had the train been announced as ready for boarding before you got onto it? If not, then that's why the reservations were still being put out.

alex17595 · 10 May 2013

Deeps said:
I actually had a similar incident on BH Monday. My wife and I, both in our late 60s; me with a recent hip replacement, wife waiting for a knee job has a disabled card.
Board train in Plymouth, aim for and get Priority seats - bit more room to stretch "poorly" legs out/close to doors/loo. After a few minutes FGW man comes along and puts reserved tickets on our seats - we decide to stay put and see if anyone turns up to claim seats. Two young ladies (early 20s - ish) do so - we move. It struck both of us as a little strange that the Priority seats are allocated to "random" seat reservers. I wondered what the Train Manager would have done had we "claimed" these seats on the basis of the Priority notice and had refused to move.

To continue this tale: we did manage to find two more unreserved seats, occupied them, got comfy and settled back. The train leaves, after some minutes another FGW man comes along with a further fistful of reserved notices and puts two on our "new" seats. We were totally unimpressed as were many other people who like us had already moved once !! The gangway on the train was now jammed with people trying find unreserved seats and people with reserved tickets trying to persuade seat occupiers that the seat is theirs (because FGW men still haven't finished putting out reservation tickets !!) - we are then told that all the seats in coach E are unreserved - of course they don't tell us that coach E is already jammed to the rafters !

Two questions.

1. Should Priority seats be doled out as normal seat reservations ? Why have them at all in this case ?
2. ...and the old chestnut. Why do those who pay the cheapest fare get a reserved seat whilst those paying "full" fare are left to fend for themselves ?

Before anyone says so - I know it was a Bank Holiday and I know that trains get very busy then - but I don't think it changes the validity of my questions.......

just noticed you complained to fgw with this on Facebook.

ModernRailways · 10 May 2013

Bungle73 said:
ANYONE can get a reservation.

If you buy your ticket on the day as a spur of the moment trip you can't unless you wait around for two hours or so for the reservation to be put in the system, even then it isn't guaranteed as they could have already been printed.

Bungle73 · 10 May 2013

ModernRailways said:
If you buy your ticket on the day as a spur of the moment trip you can't unless you wait around for two hours or so for the reservation to be put in the system, even then it isn't guaranteed as they could have already been printed.

If ones turns up at the last minute why should one expect to be prioritised a seat?

jon0844 · 10 May 2013

If you really need a seat, I am sure someone will give one to you - even if you have to ask politely. Not everyone dares ask if someone would like a seat, for fear of being moaned at, but I can't imagine a scenario where nobody on a train would move.

I really don't see it as a major problem.

If you have an advance ticket, you'll have a seat. If not, you can judge the situation at the time and if a train is packed and you know you'll be suffering - you have the option to travel later.

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