Today's Railways: 319s to operate Liverpool-Manchester via Chat Moss

KingBBoogaloo · 17 Dec 2013

This was first announced by the DfT when the extra 377s were ordered and confirmed in September.

The initial six 319s will just get an internal refresh, the full refurbishment not starting until more 319s become available. Once in the north-west the six units will take over the Liverpool-Manchester Airport service and the remainder used for crew training before taking over the Liverpool-Victoria stoppers. This will free eight DMUs.

One other point, the DfT have also said that once all the 377s and the Thameslink units arrive, the equivalent of 155 four car EMUs will become surplus to requirement at Southern/Thameslink, this is base on the assumption that the 313s and 442s currently used by Southern will go for scrap.

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pemma · 17 Dec 2013

KingBBoogaloo said:
The initial six 319s will just get an internal refresh

For the LM 150s that was just new purple seat covers (which don't fit that well) and an exterior repaint and everything else stayed the same.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Dec 2013

jcollins said:
I think it depends which 319s.
There are 7 x 319/2s so I would have thought logically the 319/2s are released first. Maybe if Northern are getting six one of the 319/2s will stay with FCC primarily as a spare?

No, the 6 units released in May 2014 are 319/3 (TSGN ITT p86).

W230 · 17 Dec 2013

Silv1983 said:
I rode a 319 from St Pancras to London Bridge recently and, yes, it was worse than our 142s. Archaic is an understatement. The interior, IIRC, was a rich nicotine colour and the same decay and grime that builds up in every corner of Northern's fleet was present - only worse.

Although the Pacers are a little bit older, they've actually led a relatively easy life in comparison to the 319s which work around the clock on suburban and metro routes. Luckily, you'll be hiding in the cab though.

Silv1983 said:
On a tangent I hope the cabs get refreshed/rewired to ride them off the "tiller" style power handle!

Can't see that happening. The cabs got refreshed about 2+ years ago when they entirely replaced the top half of the desk with the current setup. I never drove the ones with the old style desk but having seen the pics in the traction manuals the current one seems a vast improvement.

I don't mind the "two handled" trains such as the 319 though that "tiller" style probably seems weird after your slidy 142 :lol:

.

OOI, does anyone know why manufacturers moved away from having a separate power and brake controller to having a combined power brake controller? I'm guessing the networkers were amongst the first to see it in the 90's but no idea why it was done.

Whatever happens, they'll need some sort of mod in the cab to work with a guard anyway as they can only be operated in DOO form at present after they removed all the door key switches a few years back.

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
No, the 6 units released in May 2014 are 319/3 (TSGN ITT p86).

If that's the case it'll mean a downgrade of rolling stock on Liverpool-Airport, going from 2+2 seating with tables to 3+2 seating without. What's the luggage space like on the 319/3s, the 156s on Liverpool-Airport currently usually have enough seats but often lack sufficient luggage space.

hwl · 17 Dec 2013

KingBBoogaloo said:
This was first announced by the DfT when the extra 377s were ordered and confirmed in September.

The initial six 319s will just get an internal refresh, the full refurbishment not starting until more 319s become available. Once in the north-west the six units will take over the Liverpool-Manchester Airport service and the remainder used for crew training before taking over the Liverpool-Victoria stoppers. This will free eight DMUs.

One other point, the DfT have also said that once all the 377s and the Thameslink units arrive, the equivalent of 155 four car EMUs will become surplus to requirement at Southern/Thameslink, this is base on the assumption that the 313s and 442s currently used by Southern will go for scrap.

Not quite right on the detail I think see the TSGN thread.
The new vehicles from bombardier are 387s not 377s and will leave TSGN when the 700s arrive in sufficient numbers. 29 x 4 car units. (FGW in talks apparently)
80x 4 car remaining 319s
25 x4 car 377s will transfer to Southeastern. (to run their share of the current join TL/SE services they will end up with.)
25 x 4 car mix of 317 and 321 (replaced by 700s)
+ some more older units not 313 or 442

The 442 and 313 were excluded from those numbers, the base assumption is that the 313 will all get used on the Moorgate services unless the bidders can make buying new stock work.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Dec 2013

jcollins said:
If that's the case it'll mean a downgrade of rolling stock on Liverpool-Airport, going from 2+2 seating with tables to 3+2 seating without. What's the luggage space like on the 319/3s, the 156s on Liverpool-Airport currently usually have enough seats but often lack sufficient luggage space.

The ITT says this about the 319/3s:

Dual-voltage electric train which can work on both overhead lines and third rail, usually used on Thameslink Luton/St Albans Wimbledon loop services.

I've travelled on them once or twice but can't remember the layout details.
Very inner-suburban.

Edvid · 17 Dec 2013

jcollins said:
What's the luggage space like on the 319/3s, the 156s on Liverpool-Airport currently usually have enough seats but often lack sufficient luggage space.

They have overhead luggage racks built to handle medium-sized luggage. Large suitcases are tricker to store though.

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

Edvid said:
They have overhead luggage racks built to handle medium-sized luggage. Large suitcases are tricker to store though.

There can be around 10 of those on some Liverpool-Airport services so I think the people commenting on the North getting cast-offs no-one else wants are in fact correct. These services don't need the massive increase in seating capacity (even though other Northern services do need a massive increase in capacity) but they do need more luggage space - the 317/7s would have been ideal but the 319/3s sound like they would be more suitable on Stoke or Glossop stoppers.

WatcherZero · 17 Dec 2013

Indeed the news article in question is written on the TSGN tender invitation. Theres also a interview with Eversholt about their refurbishment plans where they say they plan to keep the 313's in service as long as the new Thameslink wants them with them needing only minor 2020 compliance work, 315's still have life left in them and may up in Cardiff, 318 and 320's will be made compliant but (The TOC?) has not opted for retractioning while 321's will be retractioned and the old traction parts salvaged as spares for the 318 and 320's.

Bald Rick · 17 Dec 2013

jcollins said:
There can be around 10 of those on some Liverpool-Airport services so I think the people commenting on the North getting cast-offs no-one else wants are in fact correct. These services don't need the massive increase in seating capacity (even though other Northern services do need a massive increase in capacity) but they do need more luggage space...

Well they cope quite alright with luggage for people going to Gatwick, Luton and St Pancras, on some of the most heavily loaded services in the country.

ChiefPlanner · 17 Dec 2013

Silv1983 said:
I rode a 319 from St Pancras to London Bridge recently and, yes, it was worse than our 142s. Archaic is an understatement. The interior, IIRC, was a rich nicotine colour and the same decay and grime that builds up in every corner of Northern's fleet was present - only worse.

Unfair comment - the 319's are receiving a very thorough cleaning regime which has made a significant improvement. Internally and externally. Some etched glass yes - but on the whole presentable with no ingrained dirt as alleged. I only use them 12 times or so a week.

fowler9 · 17 Dec 2013

Bald Rick said:
Well they cope quite alright with luggage for people going to Gatwick, Luton and St Pancras, on some of the most heavily loaded services in the country.

They aren't hourly on those routes though and there are alternatives. From Liverpool to Manchester Airport there is an hourly train, a less than hourly National Express or there is taxi and car. And Manchester Airport is the 3rd busiest in the country and growing at a faster rate than anywhere else.

hwl · 17 Dec 2013

jcollins said:
There can be around 10 of those on some Liverpool-Airport services so I think the people commenting on the North getting cast-offs no-one else wants are in fact correct. These services don't need the massive increase in seating capacity (even though other Northern services do need a massive increase in capacity) but they do need more luggage space - the 317/7s would have been ideal but the 319/3s sound like they would be more suitable on Stoke or Glossop stoppers.

As other operators have shown, it isn't that hard to remove some seats and then fit a luggage racks as has already been done in some 319s.
319s already serve Luton and Gatwick airports.
319/3 were I think the most recently refurbed/refreshed units so it make sense to use them while the others that are in a worst state are refurbed.

Starmill · 17 Dec 2013

Greybeard33 said:
But to get the 317/7s back in service, is it essential that they have a new traction package and a complete new interior? As opposed to a thorough overhaul, new seat covers and a deep clean (like Northern's 142s are getting)? Personally I would much rather ride in a clapped-out 317 than a clapped-out and rammed 142.
Northern has DMUs operating under the wires every weekday peak on Manchester-Crewe/Macclesfield services.

And Hazel Grove... AND Morpeth...

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

Bald Rick said:
Well they cope quite alright with luggage for people going to Gatwick, Luton and St Pancras, on some of the most heavily loaded services in the country.

The user Edvid states that storing large suitcases on them are a problem on their current routes.

Starmill · 17 Dec 2013

jcollins said:
I think it depends which 319s.

The 319/0, 319/3 and 319/4s all resemble the ex-LM 150 interiors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:319003_DTSO_Internal.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:319363_TSO_Internal.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:319427_B_Standard_Class_Internal.JPG

However, the 319/2s resemble the ATW 150 interiors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:319217_Standard_Class_Interior.JPG

There are 7 x 319/2s so I would have thought logically the 319/2s are released first. Maybe if Northern are getting six one of the 319/2s will stay with FCC primarily as a spare?

I see, I wasn't aware they were in that condition, I don't think I've been one one either. Did Southern put those new seats and tables in?

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

starmill said:
I see, I wasn't aware they were in that condition, I don't think I've been one one either. Did Southern put those new seats and tables in?

Apparently yes with the intention of making the interior suitable for the London Victoria-Brighton express services.

edwin_m · 17 Dec 2013

starmill said:
And Hazel Grove... AND Morpeth...

Both of which continue onto non-electrified lines, unlike Manchester-Stoke/Macclesfield (though their diagrams might).

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

edwin_m said:
Both of which continue onto non-electrified lines, unlike Manchester-Stoke/Macclesfield (though their diagrams might).

Stoke and Glossop are 100% EMU operated. A peak time Macclesfield-Manchester service is a class 142 though.

Eagle · 17 Dec 2013

What people seem to forget is that the reason that you get DMUs on services like that is that is that the daily diagram for those units then goes on to work some unelectrified services. You can't look at services in isolation like that.

Splitting the diagram wouldn't work either, because then you'd end up using one extra EMU (working the electric parts) without actually releasing the DMU (working the other parts).

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

Eagle said:
What people seem to forget is that the reason that you get DMUs on services like that is that is that the daily diagram for those units then goes on to work some unelectrified services. You can't look at services in isolation like that.

In the case of Northern they could use 2 extra EMUs on 'South Manchester' services with a timetabling/diagram revision. They accept that they haven't had enough EMUs since the December 08 timetable changes so have written diagrams accordingly.

In the case of Hazel Grove-Preston Northern don't want to change that, because they are required to run a Stockport-Preston service and running it from Buxton (as it was in the past) caused too many punctuality issues and Chester is the only alternative unelectrified destination, which is further from Stockport than Buxton.

Xenophon PCDGS · 17 Dec 2013

Greybeard33 said:
Why do they have to be refurbished for a short-term lease? Are they really in worse condition than Northern's 142s?

What a nightmare-ish comparison to make..

hock:

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

Paul Sidorczuk said:
What a nightmare-ish comparison to make..hock:

What about this type of seating: http://www.roberthampton.me.uk/word...ads/2011/12/liverpool-overhead-railway-5.jpeg

Xenophon PCDGS · 17 Dec 2013

jcollins said:
The 319s are not yet life expired, with a decent refurbishment they'll have 10 years or so of life left in them.

The more cynical of us on this forum have already made postings on past threads with regard to the type of refurbishment (if any) that will take place and the word "refresh" was cynically suggested by a certain forum member.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

jcollins said:
What about this type of seating: http://www.roberthampton.me.uk/word...ads/2011/12/liverpool-overhead-railway-5.jpeg

Be careful...you never know what stocks of seating are held, ready to spring upon the unsuspecting travelling public...

Was it the Liverpool Overhead Railway in that image ?

fowler9 · 17 Dec 2013

Paul Sidorczuk said:
The more cynical of us on this forum have already made postings on past threads with regard to the type of refurbishment (if any) that will take place and the word "refresh" was cynically suggested by a certain forum member.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Be careful...you never know what stocks of seating are held, ready to spring upon the unsuspecting travelling public...

Was it the Liverpool Overhead Railway in that image ?

The word "Refresh" fills me with dread. It stinks of management speak for a new moquette on the seats and we'll mop the floor. The yellowing plastic will have to stay.

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Was it the Liverpool Overhead Railway in that image ?

That image is of the reconstructed Liverpool Overhead Railway carriage at the Museum of Liverpool, which is why the passengers don't look real.

LBSCR Times · 17 Dec 2013

SeanG said:
6 trains are better than nothing

And still leaves FCC running 4 car trains in the peak......

pemma · 17 Dec 2013

LBSCR Times said:
And still leaves FCC running 4 car trains in the peak......

I thought FCC are getting an additional 8 x 377s to compensate for releasing the 6 x 319s, with more 377s to follow.

Greybeard33 · 17 Dec 2013

jcollins said:
In the case of Northern they could use 2 extra EMUs on 'South Manchester' services with a timetabling/diagram revision. They accept that they haven't had enough EMUs since the December 08 timetable changes so have written diagrams accordingly.

In the case of Hazel Grove-Preston Northern don't want to change that, because they are required to run a Stockport-Preston service and running it from Buxton (as it was in the past) caused too many punctuality issues and Chester is the only alternative unelectrified destination, which is further from Stockport than Buxton.

If the hourly Preston-Hazel Grove service were extended to Buxton, the hourly Piccadilly-Buxton service could be cut back to Hazel Grove and operated by a couple of EMUs. This would release several DMUs that could be used to strengthen Bolton services. Yes there would be punctuality issues at times, but is that not a "lesser evil" than severe overcrowding?

Since there is a shortage of DMU carriages, a bit of creativity in timetabling/diagramming is needed to reduce running under the wires, rather than Northern and the DfT just saying that it's all too difficult.

Today's Railways: 319s to operate Liverpool-Manchester via Chat Moss

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