TfL Contactless & Railcards.

TonyR · 11 Oct 2014

For years I have been using a pre-pay Oyster card in London to which you can have your railcard added to ensure you get the discount on relevant fares. Recently though TfL have been promoting their Contactless PAYG using a standard credit or debit card which you have to register with them.

I couldn't find any mention though of railcard discounts and how to get them added. So I wrote to TfL who replied that they can't offer them because it the bank's card not theirs. I don't buy that as your card is registered with them and they use its contactless data to identify your touch in and touch out to calculate and charge the fare to it. It would be very easy to add a railcard to the card registration details so that the correct fare is calculated.

But the main thing is they are nowhere making people aware that you will not get the discount to which you are entitled if you use Contactless. I can see how they will be happy to get all the extra revenue as a result and most people will never know but is it legal or acceptable for what is targeted to become the main means of payment for rail and other travel in London?

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Paul Kelly · 11 Oct 2014

The difference between Oyster and contactless bank card is that with contactless bank cards the fares are calculated by a backend computer system, not in real time on-the-card as with Oyster.

So if only the backend knows that your card has a railcard registered to it, how does an inspector know to ask to see your railcard when he/she checks you card? I think what the answer means is that since TfL is not able to modify any data on the card, it can't set a flag to say a railcard is registered to the card and thus should be checked.

Just to add, I'm not excusing the system - I think it's quite a big drawback of the contactless payment system.

Panda · 11 Oct 2014

Contactless was launched less than a month ago. There are obviously some missing features when compared to Oyster - you cannot just launch something like this and expect it to have all the bells and whistles. It will probably follow later.

Shimbleshanks · 11 Oct 2014

TonyR said:
For years I have been using a pre-pay Oyster card in London to which you can have your railcard added to ensure you get the discount on relevant fares. Recently though TfL have been promoting their Contactless PAYG using a standard credit or debit card which you have to register with them.

I couldn't find any mention though of railcard discounts and how to get them added. So I wrote to TfL who replied that they can't offer them because it the bank's card not theirs. I don't buy that as your card is registered with them and they use its contactless data to identify your touch in and touch out to calculate and charge the fare to it. It would be very easy to add a railcard to the card registration details so that the correct fare is calculated.

But the main thing is they are nowhere making people aware that you will not get the discount to which you are entitled if you use Contactless. I can see how they will be happy to get all the extra revenue as a result and most people will never know but is it legal or acceptable for what is targeted to become the main means of payment for rail and other travel in London?

CAN you add a railcard to an Oystercard account? I've looked all over the website and cannot find anything.

VauxhallandI · 11 Oct 2014

Shimbleshanks said:
CAN you add a railcard to an Oystercard account? I've looked all over the website and cannot find anything.

At a TFL ticket office

higthomas · 11 Oct 2014

Shimbleshanks said:
CAN you add a railcard to an Oystercard account? I've looked all over the website and cannot find anything.

Yes you definitely can, I have.
You have to register your card and then take both the oyster and your railcard to a manned booth and he will do it for you, although those can be done simultaneously.

ainsworth74 · 11 Oct 2014

Most certainly! An LU ticket office will be able to add a National Railcard to a registered Oyster card very handy it is to!

MikeWh · 11 Oct 2014

TonyR said:
TfL have been promoting their Contactless PAYG using a standard credit or debit card which you have to register with them.

This is wrong. You absolutely do not need to register the card with TfL. There are significant benefits if you do, including as you travel journey data and up to 12 months history, but you can absolutely use any compatible CPC without pre-registering.

starrymarkb · 11 Oct 2014

One Question, can you use contactless to gain access to the Picc Line for the Free Heathrow T123-T5 transfer? Would save a long walk to HEx from the Bus Station (most of our group have Oyster but one doesn't so was considering using a Contactless Card on the Picc)

causton · 11 Oct 2014

starrymarkb said:
One Question, can you use contactless to gain access to the Picc Line for the Free Heathrow T123-T5 transfer? Would save a long walk to HEx from the Bus Station (most of our group have Oyster but one doesn't so was considering using a Contactless Card on the Picc)

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-pa...+Station&ToId=940GZZLUHR5&PassengerType=Adult

Looks like it!

Shimbleshanks · 11 Oct 2014

ainsworth74 said:
Most certainly! An LU ticket office will be able to add a National Railcard to a registered Oyster card very handy it is to!

Does it apply to the Network Card too?

TonyR · 11 Oct 2014

Indigo2 said:
The difference between Oyster and contactless bank card is that with contactless bank cards the fares are calculated by a backend computer system, not in real time on-the-card as with Oyster.

So if only the backend knows that your card has a railcard registered to it, how does an inspector know to ask to see your railcard when he/she checks you card? I think what the answer means is that since TfL is not able to modify any data on the card, it can't set a flag to say a railcard is registered to the card and thus should be checked.

Just to add, I'm not excusing the system - I think it's quite a big drawback of the contactless payment system.

So, without access to the backend computer how do they even know you've touched in? AFAIK you cannot write data to contactless cards, just read it. Plus I've almost never been asked to show my Gold Card when showing a Gold Card discounted ticket to an inspector.

Are Oyster Cards really active and doing fare calculations themselves real time? Or is that too done by a backend computer?

MikeWh · 11 Oct 2014

Shimbleshanks said:
Does it apply to the Network Card too?

No. The £13 minimum fare on weekdays renders that card useless within the London area other than at weekends. The Oyster system doesn't differenciate between the railcards so it's not valid. Oyster is also a single person card, so railcards which must be used in a group aren't valid with it either (F&F, 2T).

swt_passenger · 11 Oct 2014

Shimbleshanks said:
Does it apply to the Network Card too?

No, however the Network card would be pretty much irrelevant 5 days a week anyway because of the after 1000 limit and then the £13.00 minimum fare. Family and Two together are not permitted either, probably because they are not valid for an individual travelling alone.

Panda · 11 Oct 2014

TonyR said:
So, without access to the backend computer how do they even know you've touched in? AFAIK you cannot write data to contactless cards, just read it. Plus I've almost never been asked to show my Gold Card when showing a Gold Card discounted ticket to an inspector.

Are Oyster Cards really active and doing fare calculations themselves real time? Or is that too done by a backend computer?

No the Oyster readers are doing the calculations.

aleph_0 · 11 Oct 2014

Indigo2 said:
So if only the backend knows that your card has a railcard registered to it, how does an inspector know to ask to see your railcard when he/she checks you card? I think what the answer means is that since TfL is not able to modify any data on the card, it can't set a flag to say a railcard is registered to the card and thus should be checked.

Whilst I understand that short term, it hasn't been implemented, long term it shouldn't really be a problem. Storing a database of hashed railcard-registered contactless cards in the portable readers should be relatively easy to do. I can also imagine in the longer term, there might also be a desire to ring home and check whether someone is tapped in. There are obvious advantages (speed, lack of phone signal) of the low-tech solution for the initial roll out, but longer term once takeup increases, the ability to validate in real-time would enable penalty fares/irregularities to be dealt with.

Paul Kelly · 12 Oct 2014

TonyR said:
So, without access to the backend computer how do they even know you've touched in?

They don't. There was some discussion in another thread about the opportunities for fare evasion that this might present.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

aleph_0 said:
Storing a database of hashed railcard-registered contactless cards in the portable readers should be relatively easy to do.

True, although there might be data security issues there (but I'm really not familiar with the procedures in this field).

aleph_0 said:
I can also imagine in the longer term, there might also be a desire to ring home and check whether someone is tapped in. There are obvious advantages (speed, lack of phone signal) of the low-tech solution for the initial roll out, but longer term once takeup increases, the ability to validate in real-time would enable penalty fares/irregularities to be dealt with.

That makes a lot of sense. I would hazard a guess that the backend database isn't fast/responsive enough for this yet.

aleph_0 · 12 Oct 2014

Indigo2 said:
That makes a lot of sense. I would hazard a guess that the backend database isn't fast/responsive enough for this yet.

I expect the priority was to implement some sort of checking system, and whatever bells+whistles you add later, they will probably need an offline system as a backup. We're also at the stage where the focus is on trying to increase acceptance/adoption, even if the rules were changes to allow it, having publicity about people being 'fined' for making an 'innocent mistake' when using contactless is something to be avoided.

MikeWh · 12 Oct 2014

aleph_0 said:
I can also imagine in the longer term, there might also be a desire to ring home and check whether someone is tapped in. There are obvious advantages (speed, lack of phone signal) of the low-tech solution for the initial roll out, but longer term once takeup increases, the ability to validate in real-time would enable penalty fares/irregularities to be dealt with.

If the CPC is registered you can already get on-the-day updates. There is usually a delay of 5-15 minutes between touch and appearing online. The problem would be if you were checked before one of your touches had made it through, so I still don't think they'll operate penalty fares in real time. My understanding is that initially you'll get a maximum fare if it turns out you weren't in the system when checked. There is scope to say that if the same card is picked up multiple times then a penalty fare could be levied and/or the card disabled from being used.

TfL Contactless & Railcards.

TonyR

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Paul Kelly

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Shimbleshanks

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VauxhallandI

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higthomas

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ainsworth74

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MikeWh

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causton

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