Greater Manchester Railways are a "Constant Building Site"

thenorthern · 4 Aug 2015

While I was on the train today I was talking to someone about how the railway and tram networks in Manchester seem to be a constant building site with many temporary line closures, diversions and reduced number of services operating while improvement works take place many of which over run.

Some of the examples include Oldham Loop Line Conversion, Victoria Improvements, Farnworth Tunnel improvements, St Peter's Square, Todmorden Curve Chat Moss Electrification and the Manchester Airport temporary closure.

I know once its all completed the network will be better but while the improvement works take place the disruption to services can be rather difficult at times and I sometimes wonder if there are too many rail projects happening at once. Does anyone else agree?

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ooo · 4 Aug 2015

If the projects weren't carried out at the same time then the disruption would go on for even longer which wouldn't please passengers either.

dave12435 · 4 Aug 2015

It makes perfect sense for projects to be carried out at the same time in parallel as costs can be reduced through sharing of resources etc

QueensCurve · 4 Aug 2015

thenorthern said:
While I was on the train today I was talking to someone about how the railway and tram networks in Manchester seem to be a constant building site with many temporary line closures, diversions and reduced number of services operating while improvement works take place many of which over run.

Some of the examples include Oldham Loop Line Conversion, Victoria Improvements, Farnworth Tunnel improvements, St Peter's Square, Todmorden Curve Chat Moss Electrification and the Manchester Airport temporary closure.

I know once its all completed the network will be better but while the improvement works take place the disruption to services can be rather difficult at times and I sometimes wonder if there are too many rail projects happening at once. Does anyone else agree?

That alas is the eternal dilemma of infrastructure improvement.

thenorthern · 5 Aug 2015

I agree some of the projects are connected although many of them aren't. Also many of the projects have overrun such as the Chat Moss, Oldham Loop Line conversion and Manchester Victoria Metrolink rebuilding.

I reckon that the decisions by British Rail in the 1980s to open the Windsor Link and re-route the Leeds expresses into Piccadilly has lead to many of the current problems as it meant that too many trains are using the Piccadilly to Deansgate section and Victoria for many years fell into a decay as there were less trains calling there particularly expresses.

ianhr · 5 Aug 2015

thenorthern said:
I agree some of the projects are connected although many of them aren't. Also many of the projects have overrun such as the Chat Moss, Oldham Loop Line conversion and Manchester Victoria Metrolink rebuilding.

I reckon that the decisions by British Rail in the 1980s to open the Windsor Link and re-route the Leeds expresses into Piccadilly has lead to many of the current problems as it meant that too many trains are using the Piccadilly to Deansgate section and Victoria for many years fell into a decay as there were less trains calling there particularly expresses.

| agree. The BR era 'rationalisations' in The Manchester area were retrograde and grievously over zealous. The run down of Victoria was unwise along with the re-routing of so many trains over the Deansgate-Piccadilly line through platforms 13 & 14. The Bury and Altrincham lines should never have been converted to tramway but should have been kept as heavy rail and modernised or converted to a metro. The street tramway should have been developed to serve parts of the city with no existing rail transport. I am afraid it was all done on the cheap and what we now have is unfit for purpose. Rectifying the mistakes is both expensive and disruptive and will probably leave us with a network that will still have many shortcomings.

Even Manchester Central would probably now be operating at full capacity if it was still part of the network!

WatcherZero · 5 Aug 2015

You do know Central closed in 1969 right? Usage on Bury and Altrincham lines also more than doubled over night after conversion. Oldham line the rail industry wanted to close down as they judged it wasn't cost effective to renew it, converting to tramway saved it.

Tracky · 5 Aug 2015

If the Bury and Altrincham lines had stayed as heavy rail but with a much higher service level the growth would still have occurred. Metro link was seen as a low cost way to provide brand new electric trains.

The same happened in the Midlands. If the line from Birmingham snow hill to Wolverhampton had been reinstated as heavy rail I have no doubt chiltern would have opened up to Shrewsbury rather than Kidderminster. The line itself would have a similar service as the Snow Hill-Stourbridge Jn route.

thenorthern · 5 Aug 2015

I am not sure about the Bury and Altrincham lines as they are now receiving more services than they did before although the Oldham Conversion to me was a mistake as the trams are slower than the trains and are more prone to line blockages. That project overran though and meant that for 3 years Oldham was without any rail or tram services.

After that the line was still a building site because of the Oldham and Rochdale town centre extensions and when they were finally completed Victoria was closed and shortly after that reopened behind schedule St Peter's Square closes.

bradders1983 · 5 Aug 2015

thenorthern said:
I am not sure about the Bury and Altrincham lines as they are now receiving more services than they did before although the Oldham Conversion to me was a mistake as the trams are slower than the trains and are more prone to line blockages..

I grew up in Milnrow and I remember many a time having to wait ten minutes or so outside Shaw and Crompton station waiting for a train to clear the Rochdale-Shaw single track section. You wont get that now....

thenorthern · 5 Aug 2015

bradders1983 said:
I grew up in Milnrow and I remember many a time having to wait ten minutes or so outside Shaw and Crompton station waiting for a train to clear the Rochdale-Shaw single track section. You wont get that now....

Granted that was an issue however the problem I find now there are a lot of Police Incidents and Traffic Incidents on the street section in Oldham which there wan't before.

Par · 5 Aug 2015

Couldn't agree more about the Oldham Loop.

The line from Shaw (busiest stop on the route) closed in October 2009, and didn't re-open until December 2012.

Over 3 years to renew about 10 miles of railway!

I appreciate that remedial work was required on some structures etc.., and that all the station stops were completely re-built, but it has to be remembered too that these were mainly pre-fabricated units. We are talking about a basic alignment that was already extant, with no great earthworks, or the removal of other obstacles required.

Prior to the closure, work was already complete on the Central Park stop, and the 'finback' bridge just to the north of it, and remedial work was underway for the re-instatement of the Smedley viaduct.

I think the word glacial springs to mind when recalling how this all went, all exacerbated by the woeful alternative interim bus service that tripled the journey time to Manchester city centre.

WatcherZero · 5 Aug 2015

No great obstacles or earthworks? Not remember the viaduct that used to run through Oldham, all the stations were demolished and completely rebuilt, drainage was installed the length of the line.

Par · 5 Aug 2015

WatcherZero said:
No great obstacles or earthworks? Not remember the viaduct that used to run through Oldham, all the stations were demolished and completely rebuilt, drainage was installed the length of the line.

You refer to the 'Mumps Bridge viaduct' which was completely dismantled over two weekends, so 4 days out of a total closure of over 1000 days.

The drainage I'll grant you, and I've already acknowledged about the stations, but 3+ years for this re-build?

kevconnor · 6 Aug 2015

There is also the work that was required on the Irk valley viaduct and the tunnel that follows after it coming g out at Monsall tram stop.

Par · 6 Aug 2015

kevconnor said:
There is also the work that was required on the Irk valley viaduct and the tunnel that follows after it coming g out at Monsall tram stop.

Yes, the Smedley viaduct as acknowledged in my initial post, and work which was underway prior to the Oldham Loop closure.

thenorthern · 6 Aug 2015

Just looking at the old timetable for the Oldham Loop Line, it took 33 minutes to get from Manchester Victoria to Rochdale and 28 minutes to get the stopping train from Victoria to Shaw and Crompton. The tram to Rochdale now takes an hour and the tram to Shaw and the tram to Shaw and Crompton takes 33. Not much of an improvement.

Wasn't the line through Romiley closed for a while recently as well?

Par · 6 Aug 2015

thenorthern said:
Just looking at the old timetable for the Oldham Loop Line, it took 33 minutes to get from Manchester Victoria to Rochdale and 28 minutes to get the stopping train from Victoria to Shaw and Crompton. The tram to Rochdale now takes an hour and the tram to Shaw and the tram to Shaw and Crompton takes 33. Not much of an improvement.

Wasn't the line through Romiley closed for a while recently as well?

The 'express' Shaw - Victoria service was about 23-24 minutes, so we are talking 10 minutes longer now. That said, without the conversion, this line was certainly being run-down, with (in my view) the intention to justify its closure entirely due the poor state of repair.

I'm a train fan, but I'm not necessarily anti-tram because the tram service has many plusses (probably many more minuses though), including:-

A 364 day a year service
Greater frequency (much greater in the evenings). Will be 6 minute frequency soon
Earlier services (considerably earlier on Sundays)
Considerably later services, particularly on Friday and Saturday
Journey possibilities into the city centre

edwin_m · 6 Aug 2015

A lot of the delay to the Oldham line was about connecting the signalling to the Bury line on the Irk Valley viaduct. There were big problems with signalling on the earlier routes of Phase 3, particularly when it came to interfacing with the "railway" signalling on Phase 1.

Camden · 6 Aug 2015

thenorthern said:
While I was on the train today I was talking to someone about how the railway and tram networks in Manchester seem to be a constant building site with many temporary line closures, diversions and reduced number of services operating while improvement works take place many of which over run.

Some of the examples include Oldham Loop Line Conversion, Victoria Improvements, Farnworth Tunnel improvements, St Peter's Square, Todmorden Curve Chat Moss Electrification and the Manchester Airport temporary closure.

I know once its all completed the network will be better but while the improvement works take place the disruption to services can be rather difficult at times and I sometimes wonder if there are too many rail projects happening at once. Does anyone else agree?

Pretty incredible really. I know there are other large cities in your region that would give their eye teeth to be getting all the transport spending that is going on in Manchester right now.

I might bookmark this for the next person who complains to me that all the money is spent in London!

bradders1983 · 6 Aug 2015

thenorthern said:
. The tram to Rochdale now takes an hour and the tram to Shaw and the tram to Shaw and Crompton takes 33. Not much of an improvement.

Surely anyone going to Rochdale would just get a train anyway?

When living in Milnrow, it was often quicker to get a train into Rochdale first and then carrying on to Manchester that way, if I recall it was a through train that went to somewhere like Kirkby. Sat in Rochdale idle for a couple of mins, but still quicker.

ianhr · 6 Aug 2015

Par said:
Couldn't agree more about the Oldham Loop.

The line from Shaw (busiest stop on the route) closed in October 2009, and didn't re-open until December 2012.

Over 3 years to renew about 10 miles of railway!

Prior to the closure, work was already complete on the Central Park stop, and the 'finback' bridge just to the north of it,
.

I have often wondered who was responsible for that ridiculous structure with it's 10mph speed restriction for TRAMS to cross it!!!

With designs like this it hardly surprising that tram journeys are significantly slower than even the run down railway that they replace.

PrinceBishop · 6 Aug 2015

Camden said:
Pretty incredible really. I know there are other large cities in your region that would give their eye teeth to be getting all the transport spending that is going on in Manchester right now.

I might bookmark this for the next person who complains to me that all the money is spent in London!

Despite being from the Manchester area originally, I have some sympathy with this statement. To complain about disruption as the railway/Metrolink is upgraded seems to be inviting the response: 'Would you rather the improvements didn't happen?' People can't complain that the railways are terrible one moment and then complain at the disruption all the improvement works are causing the next.

Also much of the improvements the OP has listed happened consecutively not concurrently, so it's not as if this disruption has happened at the same time.

The Oldham Loop conversion did seem to take an inexplicably long time but for me the biggest benefit was the fact that the new line serves both Rochdale and Oldham town centres. Definitely an improvement.

Darren R · 6 Aug 2015

PrinceBishop said:
... People can't complain that the railways are terrible one moment and then complain at the disruption all the improvement works are causing the next....

Of course they can - what do you think internet Fora were invented for! :lol:

thenorthern · 7 Aug 2015

When is the current schedule of improvements expected to be finished?

familyguy99 · 8 Aug 2015

thenorthern said:
Just looking at the old timetable for the Oldham Loop Line, it took 33 minutes to get from Manchester Victoria to Rochdale and 28 minutes to get the stopping train from Victoria to Shaw and Crompton. The tram to Rochdale now takes an hour and the tram to Shaw and Crompton takes 33. Not much of an improvement.

Wasn't the line through Romiley closed for a while recently as well?

BIB - Where did you get one hours from? tram from Rochdale to Manchester takes 45 mins but you have to remember that 19 stations that tram will call out where train used to only call at five stations (non stopping one)

EDIT: I notice no-one mention that three Metrolink lines opened sooner then they should done.

East Didsbury - Due to open in Summer 2013 but opened on 23rd May, couple of months early then planned.
Droylsden to Ashton - Due to open in Winter 2013/14 but opened in early October 2013, three to six months then planned.
Manchester Airport line - due to open Summer 2016 but opened 18 months early in November 2014.

PrinceBishop · 8 Aug 2015

Darren R said:
Of course they can - what do you think internet Fora were invented for!

Fair point.

thenorthern · 8 Aug 2015

familyguy99 said:
BIB - Where did you get one hours from? tram from Rochdale to Manchester takes 45 mins but you have to remember that 19 stations that tram will call out where train used to only call at five stations (non stopping one)

EDIT: I notice no-one mention that three Metrolink lines opened sooner then they should done.

East Didsbury - Due to open in Summer 2013 but opened on 23rd May, couple of months early then planned.
Droylsden to Ashton - Due to open in Winter 2013/14 but opened in early October 2013, three to six months then planned.
Manchester Airport line - due to open Summer 2016 but opened 18 months early in November 2014.

I stand corrected.

snowball · 10 Aug 2015

thenorthern said:
When is the current schedule of improvements expected to be finished?

Who can say whether or when TP electrification will be resuscitated, and what track alterations will come with it?

The Preston/Blackpool/Stalybridge electrifications should be finished by the end of 2017, maybe earlier. Maybe the Ordsall Chord too if the legal challenge is quickly dismissed when it comes to court. The extra platforms at Picc and reconfiguration at Oxford Road have yet to be approved. Maybe the end of 2019?

I haven't seen much detail about other changes under the Northern Hub.

Xenophon PCDGS · 10 Aug 2015

PrinceBishop said:
Despite being from the Manchester area originally, I have some sympathy with this statement. To complain about disruption as the railway/Metrolink is upgraded seems to be inviting the response: 'Would you rather the improvements didn't happen?' People can't complain that the railways are terrible one moment and then complain at the disruption all the improvement works are causing the next.

I will say in response to this, even though not resident in the land of the TfGM empire, that St Peters Square is a noted part of Manchester city centre and to see the timescale for the final completion of the Metrolink project for that stop is not one that will endear itself to either visitors or residents of this city. We are not talking a matter of weeks, as the TfGM information cites end of 2016 for final completion.

Greater Manchester Railways are a "Constant Building Site"

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