Oyster and replacement bus services

I'm travelling East Croydon to Gatwick early this Sunday morning...very excited to be able to use Oyster at long last - but of course the line is closed for engineering works. I will get one of the replacement buses - probably one that goes direct.

So does this mean I lose the chance to use Oyster for the journey and have to pay more for a paper ticket (and for a journey that will take much longer)?

Or could I touch in at East Croydon, ask to be let out again, get the bus, and somehow "touch out" at Gatwick BR when I arrive...

You certainly won't be required to pay more*, but what will happen in practice can vary. If you're unsure what to do, seek instructions from staff.

(* By that I mean if you are somehow charged more, you would be able to claim a refund of the difference)

The general drill with rail replacement buses wholly inside the Oyster area is that you should touch in at your starting station and touch out at the destination station. (make sure you allow adequate time to do this and get back to wherever the buses are running from)

The ticket machines on the buses (even if they have TfL ticket machines) will not be set up for rail fares so you should not touch in on the bus (there may be rare exceptions to this if there is a very long term rail replacement seven days a week with dedicated buses)

Also (possibly not relevant in this case) you should not touch in or out at any station where you have to change between bus and train. Many passengers do this, either intentionally or mistakenly, and therefore only get charged for the bit of journey that's by train, but risk being caught without a valid ticket if the replacement bus gets ticket checked (this is not an unknown event)

In practical terms, touching in / out without going to the platform is easier where there are stand alone oyster readers not barriers, but I am sure you will not be the only person wanting to do this and, as yorkie has said, staff ought to be able to advise.

CatfordCat said:

The general drill with rail replacement buses wholly inside the Oyster area is that you should touch in at your starting station and touch out at the destination station.

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That might be the official rule but you never see anyone doing that. I'm sure 90% of passengers on typical rail replacement busses have already touched out, unless the gateline is left open at the station and they are being explicitly directed by staff.

Reason077 said:

That might be the official rule but you never see anyone doing that. I'm sure 90% of passengers on typical rail replacement busses have already touched out, unless the gateline is left open at the station and they are being explicitly directed by staff.

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Made me think this, I've been on replacement buses to stations that were shut on both sides so you are unable to tap in or out.
I've been asked to show my 'ticket' on boarding and showed my contactless card and was OK.
It was treated as a 'broken' Oyster reader journey (freebie).

What people are supposed to do and what people tend to do may be different things...

I have also been on rail replacement buses where RPIs (or whatever they are called locally) have had to explain tactfully to passengers that no, rail replacement buses are not free...

CatfordCat said:

Also (possibly not relevant in this case) you should not touch in or out at any station where you have to change between bus and train. Many passengers do this, either intentionally or mistakenly, and therefore only get charged for the bit of journey that's by train, but risk being caught without a valid ticket if the replacement bus gets ticket checked (this is not an unknown event)

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While you and I know this, I'm not convinced that the average member of the public should be expected to know that is the correct behaviour, unless they're told (TfL/ToCs should just document this). The strong message that comes across is that you should always touch in and out. Tapping out of a barrier line before a RRB which you expect you'll be able to tap in to seems entirely reasonable, and I don't see how the ticket is invalid (they've validated it at the start of the journey, tapped through a barrier line, if there is no appropriate reader on the next segment of the journey, that's not the passenger's fault.

Edit to add: This logic applies better when the bus is at the end of the journey, at the start of the journey the user knows they should tap in before they start moving.

In particular, an ordinary member of the public would apply the same logic as below when replacing "National Rail" for "Bus".

If you do need to change stations during your journey make sure you touch out on the yellow card reader as you leave and touch in again as you enter the other station. Sometimes you may also have to do this when changing from one train operator to the other.

For example, when changing from the Tube to National Rail at Walthamstow Central, touch out on a gate as you exit the Tube and touch in on a yellow card reader when you enter the National Rail part of the station.

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Of course, on a non-theoretical level, I agree with yorkie's advice, ask staff for advice. Tapping in/out at each end before each end would work, but only if both barrier lines are open/working/accessible.

Thank you for the replies. I'm sure there won't be any clear information at East Croydon, but we'll see.

The bus runs from East Croydon to Gatwick. It will be easy to tap in at East Croydon (simply tap then not pass through the barrier).

I don't know how I will handle it at Gatwick. I'll be "landside" of the barrier - how can I tap out? I suppose the barrier staff might let me? We'll see. Or I could just leave the journey incomplete and sort it out online.

As posted in another thread, I was at Feltham on Saturday wanting a train to Putney but had neglected to check for engineering work. Got the train from Feltham to Barnes followed by the RRB. At Putney there were barriers in front of the gateline but with a gap at the side where you were allowed to go round and tap out on an exit reader. However I saw a fair amount of people touching out at Barnes and then boarding the bus, some of them going to Wandsworth Town or clapham Junction as they remained on the bus when I got off.

Can't say I've ever had to touch in or out using RRB's in the Oyster area using Southern, LOROL or LU services, but have always ensured I have enough PAYG before travelling.

One instance where touching out at a closed station was needed was a Chiltern replacement bus from Gerrards Cross to Amersham, if you were using PAYG to travel to Amersham from London, as you can't touch out at Gerrards Cross

By way of update:

I intended to take my Oyster card as at least that's something to show if stopped. In the event I forgot and only brought my contactless card which is what I usually use.

I arrived at East Croydon around 5am. Lots of blokes milling around the concourse with "can I help" type jackets on. I asked one about whether I could pay contactless. Avoiding eye-contact, he replied "get the bus at stop E1". I made a second effort - to which he said, I could buy a ticket at the machine if I wanted to and then wandered off. Obviously incapable or unwilling to understand my question.

So I asked another "can I help" guy. He said I could use Oyster, but not contactless. Then he "corrected" himself and said that he thought contactless would be OK at Gatwick now, but wasn't sure. "I don't really know about that stuff". He concluded it would be better to use Oyster than contactless. So I said I would "take a chance" on contactless. I went over to the open barrier and "touched in". As I passed him by, he said perhaps I should buy a ticket from the machine anyway. I said it was a bit too late now, but if it came to an argument I could show (albeit later) from the TfL record that I had touched in.

Bus was 15mins late. Until it turned up, none of the "can I help" guys knew what was going on. All chaotic. People piled on and a bloke with the driver announced "fast to Gatwick". A few people complained "what about Purley" (where I suppose it was meant to stop). Then there was a rumpus.. apparently some wanted Hooley too. They were told to get off now or "enjoy Gatwick - don't talk to me about Hooley or wherever". We departed. Nobody bothered with checking tickets and telling pax that they should have them.

At Gatwick I went to the barrier. Told the bloke I needed to "touch out". Took a bit of explaining, but then he laughed, used his card to let me in, so I could then "touch out". I asked him if it was the first time he saw anyone do that - he said it was. "Man you're probably the first person to pay for that journey".

It's correctly gone through as £3.

I thought when rail replacement buses are in operation that when you touched out at one station to board the bus and then touched in at another to continue the journey by train it married the two journeys together. Infact on the replacement bus journeys I have been on it has been impossible to touch in and out at the station where the replacement bus has run to because either the barriers have been closed making touching out impossible or because there is shutters across the entrace of the closed station.

matt_world2004 said:

I thought when rail replacement buses are in operation that when you touched out at one station to board the bus and then touched in at another to continue the journey by train it married the two journeys together. Infact on the replacement bus journeys I have been on it has been impossible to touch in and out at the station where the replacement bus has run to because either the barriers have been closed making touching out impossible or because there is shutters across the entrace of the closed station.

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That sounds like LU where it is a bit more joined up. National Rail less so, and I don't think many people pay for it...

jimbo99 said:

...I asked one about whether I could pay contactless. Avoiding eye-contact, he replied "get the bus at stop E1". I made a second effort - to which he said, I could buy a ticket at the machine if I wanted to and then wandered off. Obviously incapable or unwilling to understand my question....

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I suspect he was either hinting to you there was no requirement to pay for the journey, or was so used to the idea that the journey would be free that he couldn't understand why anyone would be insistent on paying for it.

jimbo99 said:

... it came to an argument I could show (albeit later) from the TfL record that I had touched in....

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There wouldn't be an argument as such; if an RPI read your contactless card and you were not touched in, the RPI wouldn't even know. It would just result in a maximum fare, which a phone call could probably resolve, in the circumstances described.

jimbo99 said:

Bus was 15mins late. Until it turned up, none of the "can I help" guys knew what was going on. All chaotic. People piled on and a bloke with the driver announced "fast to Gatwick". A few people complained "what about Purley" (where I suppose it was meant to stop). Then there was a rumpus.. apparently some wanted Hooley too. They were told to get off now or "enjoy Gatwick - don't talk to me about Hooley or wherever". We departed. Nobody bothered with checking tickets and telling pax that they should have them.

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Sometimes rail replacement buses are effectively free, but even where that is the case, it's unlikely to be advertised as such, for obvious reasons.

For example, LU do not require passengers to touch in on rail replacement buses, but passengers simply have to demonstrate a willingness to pay by holding a contactless/Oyster card with sufficient credit or a Travelcard (or, obviously, a valid paper ticket).

This contrasts with SWT who went out of their way to install standalone readers by bus stops, at certain locations.

jimbo99 said:

At Gatwick I went to the barrier. Told the bloke I needed to "touch out". Took a bit of explaining, but then he laughed, used his card to let me in, so I could then "touch out". I asked him if it was the first time he saw anyone do that - he said it was. "Man you're probably the first person to pay for that journey".

It's correctly gone through as £3.

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Your determination to pay is admirable, but even you would find it impossible to pay for some journeys on Northern!

yorkie said:

I suspect he was either hinting to you there was no requirement to pay for the journey, or was so used to the idea that the journey would be free that he couldn't understand why anyone would be insistent on paying for it.

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The latter seems more likely. It is Croydon, afterall!

BTW £3 for Croydon to Gatwick is such a bargain, IMHO.