Sainsburys & Contactless Cards

Tetchytyke · 12 Oct 2016

Paul Sidorczuk said:
I am unsure of the legality of that. Is there still a law that says UK coinage that displays a representation of a monarch is still legal tender?

Legal tender has a very narrow definition, to do with the settlement of debts at court.

I could set up a shop that refused to accept anything but Clydesdale Bank fivers if I wanted to, there's no law being broken. Wouldn't do very well, mind.
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richw said:
You will only get the 'request pin verification' for 10 consecutive contactless transactions with no pin entry of any kind in between them.

The 10 limit is a bit of a red herring, in that it is up to the individual card issuer as to how many consecutive contactless transactions they will allow.

This is causing some issues with lost and stolen cards, which are still working months after being reported as lost and being cancelled.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...actless-fraud-months-after-youve-cancelled-it

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Busaholic · 12 Oct 2016

Arctic Troll said:
I could set up a shop that refused to accept anything but Clydesdale Bank fivers if I wanted to, there's no law being broken. Wouldn't do very well, mind.

Just as long as you didn't only allow males who answered to the name 'Jock' and who had red hair to spend those fivers.

headshot119 · 12 Oct 2016

richw said:
So your telling us you've not used your card for over £30 or at non contactless retailers for over a year. You tell us you worked in the industry but you've possibly missed a major point in this post. Every time you enter your pin be that for over £30, at a non contactless retailer, or a cash machine it resets the 10 transaction limit to zero. You will only get the 'request pin verification' for 10 consecutive contactless transactions with no pin entry of any kind in between them.

I've got a contactless Barclaycard, and used it exclusively to purchase food and drink at uni and work for 2 years, only ever using it contactless, I've never had to enter a pin in that time frame.

Abpj17 · 13 Oct 2016

Arctic Troll said:
Legal tender has a very narrow definition, to do with the settlement of debts at court.

Quite. Can find some background at http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

In the context of what's a commercial transaction - TfL can decline to let you on their services without having a valid ticket, purchased on their terms.

What, I believe, they couldn't do - was turn down cash payment of fine/court settlement in the event of not having a ticket.

johntea · 13 Oct 2016

The benefit is quite obvious in that it is significantly faster for me to either tap my contactless card or use Apple Pay to pay for my purchases rather than insert card, enter PIN, wait for transaction to be authorized, remove card

Multiply that by all the customers (just theoretically as not everyone will use contactless of course) and your tills can get customers processed quicker meaning people like me won't be tempted to leave the queue and my shopping behind due to worrying about missing the train! (If say I'm in the Sainsburys at the station)

I do understand from an IT point of view that it is probably a challenge, I had fun and games getting RFID and the software working on our 15 photocopiers at work! But the technology has been out a good few years now, although I'm led to believe we're significantly ahead of America in embracing it surprisingly!

Another feature I would like to see added to self service anyway is the option not to print a receipt, just wastes paper when all I'm buying is a 50p chocolate bar!

tsr · 13 Oct 2016

johntea said:
Another feature I would like to see added to self service anyway is the option not to print a receipt, just wastes paper when all I'm buying is a 50p chocolate bar!

That system on some self-service checkouts has been so poorly-tested that you can "pay" £0.00 for an empty transaction and automatically get a receipt for it too!

"Sainsbury's - live well for less"... well, if laughing at software testing regimes is the best medicine...

infobleep · 13 Oct 2016

johntea said:
The benefit is quite obvious in that it is significantly faster for me to either tap my contactless card or use Apple Pay to pay for my purchases rather than insert card, enter PIN, wait for transaction to be authorized, remove card

Multiply that by all the customers (just theoretically as not everyone will use contactless of course) and your tills can get customers processed quicker meaning people like me won't be tempted to leave the queue and my shopping behind due to worrying about missing the train! (If say I'm in the Sainsburys at the station)

I do understand from an IT point of view that it is probably a challenge, I had fun and games getting RFID and the software working on our 15 photocopiers at work! But the technology has been out a good few years now, although I'm led to believe we're significantly ahead of America in embracing it surprisingly!

Another feature I would like to see added to self service anyway is the option not to print a receipt, just wastes paper when all I'm buying is a 50p chocolate bar!

Robert Dean supports contactless but everytime I use my Android App it fails to authorise, despite my debit card working contactlessly with them. My card is the one linked to Android Pay too. This was the case in two different stores, as well as at different days in the same store.

What I find slower is store cards. My Android Pay app can store them. However most tills only have fixed scanners and they can't read my barcode. Thus they have to type in my number.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

jon0844 · 14 Oct 2016

tellytype said:
Simple explanation: They have the hardware capable of NFC payments at Sainsburys, Ingenico 3000 series. However when they had them installed the firmware didn't contain stable/release NFC reader code, or they didn't opt for that firmware to be installed. There are backend reasons why you wouldn't have that firmware as well.

They have 1374 stores, let's say 15 devices per store, that's 20610 devices not including PFS & customer services. The average firmware update takes say half an hour, field service engineers at £30 per hour. That's £309,150 in time just to enable NFC - let alone travel, subsistence etc. And what is the benefit to Saisnsburys from spending a large chunk on that? Well, very little.

That's how these people think....sod the customer haha

I just used the new version of their self scanning today and what a mess. I opted to use the app, and while you can register on the app and add your Nectar card, you must still show your Nectar card at the checkout (and, yes, you still go to a manned checkout instead of a terminal that you pay at and leave, unless stopped for a random check).

The app is so awful. Needs to use GPS to keep checking you're in store, so in the back of the shop it wanted me to give up shopping as it lost my location (and you can't scan anything at this point). It's the GPS lost, not the Wi-Fi or mobile data connection.

When you are in scan mode, it remains with the screen on all the time and doesn't show what you just scanned or the price. You need to jump out to check the list! What sort of self scanning system doesn't let you see the running total all the time?!

Waitrose has an app and you never need your card again, as it's stored on your account. Sainbury's does too, but they argue that they need the physical card for security. Why? A physical Nectar card is the security risk - lose it and someone can try and spend your money.

On the app, you can PIN/password/fingerprint protect the app! Tesco never needs to see a physical card these days (just use their Clubcard app or a third party one). Sainsbury's has scanners at tills that can't read a Nectar card on a phone screen, as they're the laser type, not cameras.

Can Sainsbury's get anything right? They ditched the old Motorola handsets that other stores still use with no problems, and must have spent a fortune.. and for what? A new app that's rubbish and new scanners that work the same as the old ones, but look nicer.

infobleep · 14 Oct 2016

jonmorris0844 said:
I just used the new version of their self scanning today and what a mess. I opted to use the app, and while you can register on the app and add your Nectar card, you must still show your Nectar card at the checkout (and, yes, you still go to a manned checkout instead of a terminal that you pay at and leave, unless stopped for a random check).

The app is so awful. Needs to use GPS to keep checking you're in store, so in the back of the shop it wanted me to give up shopping as it lost my location (and you can't scan anything at this point). It's the GPS lost, not the Wi-Fi or mobile data connection.

When you are in scan mode, it remains with the screen on all the time and doesn't show what you just scanned or the price. You need to jump out to check the list! What sort of self scanning system doesn't let you see the running total all the time?!

Waitrose has an app and you never need your card again, as it's stored on your account. Sainbury's does too, but they argue that they need the physical card for security. Why? A physical Nectar card is the security risk - lose it and someone can try and spend your money.

On the app, you can PIN/password/fingerprint protect the app! Tesco never needs to see a physical card these days (just use their Clubcard app or a third party one). Sainsbury's has scanners at tills that can't read a Nectar card on a phone screen, as they're the laser type, not cameras.

Can Sainsbury's get anything right? They ditched the old Motorola handsets that other stores still use with no problems, and must have spent a fortune.. and for what? A new app that's rubbish and new scanners that work the same as the old ones, but look nicer.

I find most stores can't read the cards stored on phones. I've never been asked to present the card except for once at HMV when they had switched to a new system and it didn't allow them to type in the number. That lasted a couple of weeks if that though.

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jon0844 · 14 Oct 2016

There are different scanners. Tesco and others have changed so you can read LCD/OLED displays. Sainsbury's hasn't.

But beyond that issue (some local Sainsbury's stores have newer tills that can read the cards from a screen) is the fact that, as Sainsbury's has confirmed to me in writing, they only accept physical cards to add points. It's a security risk in their mind, although I'm not entirely sure what the problem is if you're seeking to add points - not spend them.

I did get some staff to manually enter the number in the past, but now they're all told they can't. If you forget your physical Nectar card, tough.

I carry as few cards with me as possible, using an app to store all my loyalty cards (much easier - and the app even pops up the right card when I enter a shop using GPS) so I have skipped shopping at Sainsbury's a few times because I didn't remember to take my card.

I really thought the app, tied to me with a login, would be secure enough to let me shop without needing to remember a bit of plastic!

infobleep · 14 Oct 2016

jonmorris0844 said:
There are different scanners. Tesco and others have changed so you can read LCD/OLED displays. Sainsbury's hasn't.

But beyond that issue (some local Sainsbury's stores have newer tills that can read the cards from a screen) is the fact that, as Sainsbury's has confirmed to me in writing, they only accept physical cards to add points. It's a security risk in their mind, although I'm not entirely sure what the problem is if you're seeking to add points - not spend them.

I did get some staff to manually enter the number in the past, but now they're all told they can't. If you forget your physical Nectar card, tough.

I carry as few cards with me as possible, using an app to store all my loyalty cards (much easier - and the app even pops up the right card when I enter a shop using GPS) so I have skipped shopping at Sainsbury's a few times because I didn't remember to take my card.

I really thought the app, tied to me with a login, would be secure enough to let me shop without needing to remember a bit of plastic!

Some people high up don't understand technology. Perhaps that is the case at Sainsburys.

Some large organisations still ask for faxes as they consider them acceptable but other more secure options they don't allow for security policy reasons.

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jon0844 · 14 Oct 2016

Perhaps when Sainsbury's finally take contactless, they'll ask for you to swipe the card in the machine as an additional security measure, or if you use Android/Apple Pay, they'll ask to take an imprint of the card...

GaryMcEwan · 14 Oct 2016

I got my Amex over a year ago and never once been asked to enter my pin when using contactless.

And depending on what retailer it is, you can use Apple Pay up to the value of £100 but you need to enter your passcode to do it.

For Sainbury's to be one of the bigger supermarkets, you would have thought they would have introduced contactless by now.

devon_metro · 15 Oct 2016

GaryMcEwan said:
I got my Amex over a year ago and never once been asked to enter my pin when using contactless.

And depending on what retailer it is, you can use Apple Pay up to the value of £100 but you need to enter your passcode to do it.

For Sainbury's to be one of the bigger supermarkets, you would have thought they would have introduced contactless by now.

My Amex contactless usually fails, far less reliable than VISA/Mastercard, so I just tend to use the chip and pin. Some retailers accept Amex, but not Amex contactless!

As for why Sainsburys doesn't have contactless, quite simply, all of the card machines were upgraded when contactless was still in it's infancy so the software was not included. To update again would be costly. It's a minor annoyance but I find it unlikely many people would choose not to shop at Sainsburys as they have to enter a PIN!

Busaholic · 15 Oct 2016

devon_metro said:
I find it unlikely many people would choose not to shop at Sainsburys as they have to enter a PIN!

Unless, of course, the card has been appropriated.

richw · 16 Oct 2016

Someone has asked 6 hours ago on sainsburys Facebook about contactless, sainsburys have replied they are rolling it out between November and January.

jon0844 · 16 Oct 2016

richw said:
Someone has asked 6 hours ago on sainsburys Facebook about contactless, sainsburys have replied they are rolling it out between November and January.

So, like December as hinted on here already.

dcsprior · 16 Oct 2016

jonmorris0844 said:
So, like December as hinted on here already.

Not necessarily - I expect December would be their busiest month of the year and therefore the riskiest time to roll something out.

I'd guess at any of the 3 options below as being more likely than December
* A pilot in Novenever, then full rollout in January.
* Rollout starting in November, pausing for a few weeks at Christmas, then restating in January.
* Rollout in November with January as contingency.

Having said that, businesses don't always make the logical choice, so it could well be December after all!

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richw · 10 Feb 2017

The store I work in contactless went live on Wednesday this week.

D365 · 10 Feb 2017

richw said:
The store I work in contactless went live on Wednesday this week.

Most of th Sheffield stores have started to go live recently.

infobleep · 10 Feb 2017

I was in Currys Digital recently and the member of staff said Currys Digital rolled out a new card payment system just two weeks before the announcement of contactless.

Whether that's true or not I don't know. Assuming it is, it explains why they wouldn't want to roll out contactless any time soon.

Sainsburys & Contactless Cards

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