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Over five hours to cross London, courtesy of Thameslink

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FenMan

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These Sutton United fans had quite a testing journey returning from their away game at Boreham Wood on Tuesday night:-

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ey-home-which-should-have-taken-a3402336.html

A group of around 50 Sutton United football fans took a staggering five and a half hours to get home on Thameslink on a journey which should have taken 75 minutes.

The problem started after they left the match at Borehamwood at 9.30pm on Tuesday to head home to Sutton following a national league fixture.

At the station they were informed of a number of cancellations which delayed them for nearly an hour. Eventually they caught a train to Blackfriars - but the Sutton connecting service was cancelled.

After another long delay they boarded the last Sutton service of the evening... only to come to a stop behind a broken down train at Herne Hill which halted all Southern services.

Dumped off at Loughborough Jct after three hours of chaos. Station closed. How we getting home @TLRailUK? pic.twitter.com/bNt3lDruIy
— Bornatotter (@bornatotter) November 23, 2016


They were ordered off the train at Loughborough Junction which was locked and closed... another train then took them back to Blackfriars.

Three and a half hours after we left Borehamwood @suttonunited fans now back at Blackfriars still trying to get home pic.twitter.com/hSEr3fo8KW
— Bornatotter (@bornatotter) November 23, 2016


At Blackfriars they waited nearly two hours for cabs to take them home, arriving back in Sutton and 3.15 am.

1.30 am. The streets of Blackfriars. Hoping for a cab after a journey from hell. Gatwick passengers missed flights. pic.twitter.com/Zaq4HYulRJ
— Bornatotter (@bornatotter) November 23, 2016


To make matters worse Sutton lost 1-0.

Two thirty am and guess what. We are still waiting. Shall we hang on for first morning train @TLRailUK? pic.twitter.com/9hq1s7bGJZ
— Bornatotter (@bornatotter) November 23, 2016


A spokesman for the Sutton fanzine Gandermonium said: “If we thought it was bad getting done over one nil be Borehamwood we hadn’t reckoned with the journey from hell that the clown car Thameslink operation had in store for us.

Just got in. Three fifteen am. More than five and half hours Borehamwood to Sutton @TLRailUK is that a record? @ihatethameslink
— Bornatotter (@bornatotter) November 23, 2016


”We worked out we could probably have walked home quicker as the whole nightmare journey home lurched from fiasco to chaos.

”The staff at Blackfriars were brilliant. It’s not their fault that their employers are a bunch of jokers you wouldn’t trust to run a line on Hackney Marshes let alone a major rail franchise.”

Thameslink is owned by Govia Thamleslink (GTR) which also owns Southern Rail which today suffered they second half of a 48-hour strike in the long running dispute over the changing role of train guards.

A Thameslink spokesman said: “We apologise to Sutton United fans who were severely delayed last night whilst trying to get home from Borehamwood.

"The root of the problem was when an empty test train became trapped at Herne Hill when the electrical supply to the track failed.

"We were unable to run any trains south of Blackfriars while Network Rail carried out urgent repairs. We recognise how frustrating this must have been for those trying to get home.”

Ouch!
 
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Bungle73

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The root of the problem was when an empty test train became trapped at Herne Hill when the electrical supply to the track failed.

So in other words not Thameslink's fault at all........

As for the 2 hours waiting for taxis, how long is organising enough taxis for fifty people (not to mention any other passengers that might have been around), at short notice, late at night supposed to take?
 

87015

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So in other words not Thameslink's fault at all........

As for the 2 hours waiting for taxis, how long is organising enough taxis for fifty people (not to mention any other passengers that might have been around), at short notice, late at night supposed to take?
Strange quote, cancellations that led to the 90 minute gap are marked up as rostering i.e. No Crew which wouldn't have had them on the last train in the first place. Usual GTR guff...
 

Bungle73

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Strange quote, cancellations that led to the 90 minute gap are marked up as rostering i.e. No Crew which wouldn't have had them on the last train in the first place. Usual GTR guff...

No crew because they couldn't get to where they needed to be because of the disruption?
 

Deepgreen

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The power supply in the Herne Hill/Tulse Hill area seems to fail often. I have been caught up in similar (thankfully much earlier) incidents too. NR possibly needs to examine why it is so frail in the area.

However, the apparent multitude of other cancellations before the power problem seem likely to have led mostly to GTR's door.
 
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Carlisle

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The power supply in the Herne Hill/Tulse Hill area seems to fail often. I have been caught up in similar (thankfully much earlier) incidents too. NR possibly needs to examine why it is so frail in the area.

However, the apparent multitude of other cancellations before the power problem seem likely to have led mostly to GTR's door.

Is there still a fair bit of 1950s ( or even earlier) electrical equipment in the areas substations and TP huts?
 
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I'll tell you what the problem is with GTR. The government has entrusted them to do McNulty's dirty work. The DFT know this bunch of losers aren't fit to run a Hornby, but hey, 'Good losers go on losing' and the DFT is the biggest bunch of loser backers from every government department in existence.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. Never in my considerable years on the railway have I seen a TOC so hell bent of destroying staff morale and customer goodwill. Time to put this lot on the dole.
 

JamesRowden

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So in other words not Thameslink's fault at all........

As for the 2 hours waiting for taxis, how long is organising enough taxis for fifty people (not to mention any other passengers that might have been around), at short notice, late at night supposed to take?

They could have travelled from Blackfriars to Sutton station in about 70 minutes on night buses.
 

duncanp

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They shouldn't have been dumped at Loughborough Junction if it was locked, and there was no means to get out.

With the benefit of hindsight, they could have gone via St Pancras and the Victoria Line , or taken the tube from Blackfriars to Victoria.

But that would have involved arranging ticket acceptance etc.
 

thedbdiboy

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They shouldn't have been dumped at Loughborough Junction if it was locked, and there was no means to get out.

With the benefit of hindsight, they could have gone via St Pancras and the Victoria Line , or taken the tube from Blackfriars to Victoria.

But that would have involved arranging ticket acceptance etc.

Ticket acceptance is a given, the problem at 12.30am is that there is no Underground service apart from on some routes Fri-Sat only
 

Bald Rick

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The power supply in the Herne Hill/Tulse Hill area seems to fail often. I have been caught up in similar (thankfully much earlier) incidents too. NR possibly needs to examine why it is so frail in the area.

However, the apparent multitude of other cancellations before the power problem seem likely to have led mostly to GTR's door.

A heavy duty switch in the third rail burnt out. I don't recall that happening recently in Herne Hill / Tulse Hill, although no doubt there have been other failures.
 

30907

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They shouldn't have been dumped at Loughborough Junction if it was locked, and there was no means to get out.

Getting them back up to Blackfriars was probably a better bet than getting taxis at Loughboro Jn - question is, was that planned or was it a foul-up?
 

Via Bank

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So in other words not Thameslink's fault at all........

As for the 2 hours waiting for taxis, how long is organising enough taxis for fifty people (not to mention any other passengers that might have been around), at short notice, late at night supposed to take?

Two hours' wait for a taxi in the centre of London (or anywhere in London really) is totally unacceptable. I'm sorry, it just is. Blackfriars is not a black spot in the middle of nowhere, even late at night there are plenty of licensed taxi and minicab services in the area, and plenty of night bus services that passengers could have been directed to take.

They should not have been turfed out at a closed station, either. The impression it gives is of a railway that is unprofessional and where the left arm doesn't know what the right arm is doing.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Told by a mate that the Blackfriars area is always a good place , anytime , to get a proper Black cab ....
 

FenMan

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More info has been posted on the Conference football forum (NSFW), which attempts to explain the taxi foul-up.

(Edited version below - and not linked directly as industrial language is used in the original)

From what I understand, there were a load of people heading to Gatwick for flights and TL prioritised them, which is fair enough I suppose.

Thing is, they'll only use a certain firm for the cabs though. It's the same one they use to ferry drivers about, so they're relying on one firm to ship a load of passengers home rather than just provide transport and get it done quickly.

A couple of the guys didn't get home until nearly 4am as the cabs would only drop to one location because of the arrangement with TL. The journeys are all logged and if they do more than 1 drop, the driver gets taken off the train account and loses the work. So the guys had to choose a central location, get dropped and walk the rest!
 

Via Bank

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And this is precisely what the public despises about the railway in situations like this. Hopelessly bureaucratic, and no sense of urgency in trying to minimise the amount of their (paying) customers' time they waste.

If I was one of the (presumably occasional) punters involved I'd make an effort to drive everywhere and never to use the train again.
 

Bungle73

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Two hours' wait for a taxi in the centre of London (or anywhere in London really) is totally unacceptable. I'm sorry, it just is. Blackfriars is not a black spot in the middle of nowhere, even late at night there are plenty of licensed taxi and minicab services in the area, and plenty of night bus services that passengers could have been directed to take.[

Why are you talking about "a" taxi when what we're actually talking about 50+ taxis? I'd like to see you organise that many at short notice anywhere and have it not take a very long time.

As for putting them on busses, it's not as simple as that. How are you going to arrange payment? Busses don't take cash, so you're relying on a passenger having the necessary means to pay. Being cashless I'm not even sure if they give out tickets anymore, so that would mean even if they do getting TL to pay later won't work. So that would have taken time to organise as well, to get acceptable of rail passengers at no charge. By the time you've done that you might as well have got them taxis
 
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JamesRowden

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As for putting them on busses, it's not as simple as that. How are you going to arrange payment? Busses don't take cash, so you're relying on a passenger having the necessary means to pay. Being cashless I'm not even sure if they give out tickets anymore, so that would mean even if they do getting TL to pay later won't work. So that would have taken time to organise as well, to get acceptable of rail passengers at no charge. By the time you've done that you might as well have got them taxis

The bus journeys would have just cost 1.50 per person. I think that the time that the passengers would have saved by using the bus rather than the taxi service would be worth more to them than that. Those with the ability to make their own way home on a bus should have been informed how long the wait for a taxi was potentially going to be (and for all I know the people may have been informed how long it might take to get a taxi and chose to take the chance). Exactly what proportion of those people do you think would not have access to a smart phone (to plan the bus route) and a contactless debit/credit card or Oyster card (to pay the bus fare)?
 

Via Bank

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Why are you talking about "a" taxi when what we're actually talking about 50+ taxis? I'd like to see you organise that many at short notice anywhere and have it not take a very long time.
I know the area very well and I'm pretty sure that, even late at night, I could stand on the street outside Blackfriars station and hail a taxi in around two minutes, probably less. Multiply by ten, perhaps with two people hailing taxis rather than one, and I reckon you could probably get something like forty taxis within an hour. So there's your Gatwick and Greater London crowd dealt with.

As for putting them on busses, it's not as simple as that. How are you going to arrange payment?
Using the reciprocal ticket acceptance arrangements that already exist between GTR and TfL?


Busses don't take cash, so you're relying on a passenger having the necessary means to pay. Being cashless I'm not even sure if they give out tickets anymore, so that would mean even if they do getting TL to pay later won't work.
Why would the passenger need to pay? They already have a ticket, and GTR have already arranged ticket acceptance with TfL in the event of disruption.

So that would have taken time to organise as well, to get acceptable of rail passengers at no charge. By the time you've done that you might as well have got them taxis
GTR have already arranged for ticket acceptance in the event of disruption. The only time it should take to organise is the time it takes to look up the time of the next N63 from Blackfriars to King's Cross (and alternative routes via Aldwych if pax are OK with walking for a more frequent alternative.)

If it takes two hours to arrange for alternative transport in the centre of the UK's largest city with a thriving night time economy, that is too long. Full stop.
 

Bungle73

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The bus journeys would have just cost 1.50 per person. I think that the time that the passengers would have saved by using the bus rather than the taxi service would be worth more to them than that. Those with the ability to make their own way home on a bus should have been informed how long the wait for a taxi was potentially going to be (and for all I know the people may have been informed how long it might take to get a taxi and chose to take the chance). Exactly what proportion of those people do you think would not have access to a smart phone (to plan the bus route) and a contactless debit/credit card or Oyster card (to pay the bus fare)?

How are staff supposed to know how long it's going to take? It takes as long as it takes. I'm not sure exactly what you think they were doing while all this was going on, other than doing their best to get passengers to their destinations? Do you think they were sitting around drinking cups of tea?
 

JamesRowden

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How are staff supposed to know how long it's going to take? It takes as long as it takes. I'm not sure exactly what you think they were doing while all this was going on, other than doing their best to get passengers to their destinations? Do you think they were sitting around drinking cups of tea?

Time should equal the time it takes to set up the service plus the number of passengers (minus those who can get in the first wave of taxis) multiplied by the average time that it will take to get passengers to their destination station multiplied by two divided by the number of passengers who can fit in each taxi divided by the number of taxis. Insert estimates into this formula and one produces an estimate.
 
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aleph_0

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Why are you talking about "a" taxi when what we're actually talking about 50+ taxis? I'd like to see you organise that many at short notice anywhere and have it not take a very long time.

As for putting them on busses, it's not as simple as that. How are you going to arrange payment? Busses don't take cash, so you're relying on a passenger having the necessary means to pay. Being cashless I'm not even sure if they give out tickets anymore, so that would mean even if they do getting TL to pay later won't work. So that would have taken time to organise as well, to get acceptable of rail passengers at no charge. By the time you've done that you might as well have got them taxis

We're talking central London, not the middle of nowhere. It would be interesting to know if the number of people was higher including other passengers, but the previous quote was 50+ passengers - this shouldn't have to translate into 50+ taxis.

The quote about having a preferred taxi supplier makes sense. But I'd hope there isn't an exclusivity agreement, and I don't see why TL can't improve their systems. Obvious options include having multiple arrangements (especially to cover central London, with agreements with firms towards the destination), good procedures to authorise passengers requesting their own taxi/ph with prompt refund.

Could staff on here tell us what the general procedure is for taxis? Do you have to call taxis/private hire with a pre-arranged supplier? Is there an option to use black cabs ranking? Is there an option to hire off the rank at another station (e.g. control calls KGX/Victoria/Waterloo - I realise this is crossing ToC lines - and asks them to hire some taxis from the rank).

I see the bus option as more a reflection of how slow things were. However, the £5 one day bus & tram pass can be issued at all National Rail stations, so could have been an option offered.

It should go without saying - but to be clear - without these options being open to them and pre-planned, I understand the staff on the ground would not have been able to do things any better at the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How are staff supposed to know how long it's going to take? It takes as long as it takes. I'm not sure exactly what you think they were doing while all this was going on, other than doing their best to get passengers to their destinations? Do you think they were sitting around drinking cups of tea?

To labour the point, I don't think anyone has implied that rail staff were being lazy, but that GTR has failed. Potentially, that's in understaffing. Potentially, in policies/procedure/planning (or lack thereof) which stop staff efficiently resolving.

The only thing that needs to happen on-the-ground is identifying the number of passengers, where they need to go, and organising into taxi groups, and getting into taxis. That should be quite a low amount of time per-passenger. Delays are due to problems in the plan, or lack of staff to implement.
 

cuccir

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It should go without saying - but to be clear - without these options being open to them and pre-planned, I understand the staff on the ground would not have been able to do things any better at the time.... Potentially, in policies/procedure/planning (or lack thereof) which stop staff efficiently resolving.

The only thing that needs to happen on-the-ground is identifying the number of passengers, where they need to go, and organising into taxi groups, and getting into taxis. That should be quite a low amount of time per-passenger. Delays are due to problems in the plan, or lack of staff to implement.

Yes, strong agreement with this. It seems that the major error comes at the end at Blackfirars - where really there ought to be a plan available for staff to turn to so that passengers can get home much more quickly.
 

broadgage

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So in other words not Thameslink's fault at all........

As for the 2 hours waiting for taxis, how long is organising enough taxis for fifty people (not to mention any other passengers that might have been around), at short notice, late at night supposed to take?

No more than about 10 minutes.
Huge numbers of empty black cabs go past Blackfriars station, it is one of the best places in London to get one.
There are also several large minicab firms in the area.
50 passengers= about a dozen cabs, plus probably a few more for other thameslink victims, I presume that passengers for places other than Sutton were also affected.
 

broadgage

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Time should equal the time it takes to set up the service plus the number of passengers (minus those who can get in the first wave of taxis) multiplied by the average time that it will take to get passengers to their destination station multiplied by two divided by the number of passengers who can fit in each taxi divided by the number of taxis. Insert estimates into this formula and one produces an estimate.

You are assuming that each taxi has to drop the passengers and return to Blackfriars, that would not be the case.
There are thousands of black cabs in London, and several empty cabs pass Blackfriars every minute.
To obtain a dozen cabs should take only a very few minutes, I doubt that as many as a hundred cabs would be needed, but even that number should be readily available.
Most black cab drivers have cell phones and would use these to advise friends as to the location of any exceptional demand for cabs, thereby further speeding the process.
 

AndyY

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Elstree and Borehamwood station is staffed 24x7 nowadays (I once returned at 01:xx and barriers were working and saw staff on duty). Perhaps they should have seen this coming and advised travelcard holders to take 107 / 292 bus to Edgware and use the underground instead?

And I cannot believe that taxis are only allowed to drop off at one point. Come on it was past midnight already. If somebody got robbed or worse walking home, will GTR try to blame to victim too?

With Uber, it certainly does not take 2h to get 50 taxis in the middle of London. Come on people we are living in the internet age now!
 

Stampy

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Hopefully, MY trip from Bedford to West Sutton on Saturday will be un-affected and un-eventful...!!!!
 
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