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Strike-hit commuters to hire own train?

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Shimbleshanks

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From the BBC website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04l0htt

‘After a year of frustration, we’ll hire our own train’

A group of Southern Rail commuters are trying to charter their own train ahead of the strikes due to begin next week which could see them left without a way to get to work.

Southern Rail’s 500,000 daily passengers will have to find a different means of travel during the three-day walkout by Southern Rail drivers next week and a week-long strike in January.

The idea for the commuter-run service comes from Anthony Simm, a member of the Reigate, Redhill and District Rail Users association, who told 5 live he relies on Southern Rail trains to travel to work.

He said: “the strike next week takes every train Southern has off the tracks – there won’t be an option for us.”

“People were discussing carpooling, even taxis, and I wondered if there was another way,” he told us.

This clip is originally from 5 live Breakfast on Sunday 11 December 2016.


Not sure how this is going to work. If the train crews are all on strike, and/or refusing to work overtime, surely they wouldn't work a special train either?
 
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Shimbleshanks

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And most likely would be an Aslef member and on strike anyway I would have thought. And would they have route knowledge north of Clapham Junction?
 

J-2739

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But it's very unlikely they would be hiring a 377, more likely some sort of charter rake.

Yeah, like that one they had at Southeastern this Autumn. Luxury padding and that... ;)

I wonder if these people even have enough money to lease a rake for God knows how long?

Do they know how to run what would be a 'mini, one off railway'?
 

Matt Taylor

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I don't think you'll find many drivers willing to drive a charter train on the Southern route at all until the dispute is settled. The point of a union is that you stick together and don't start doing work that would otherwise be done by striking ASLEF members.
 

whoosh

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Is no one seeing the irony that the charter train will have to have a Guard?!
 

tsr

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If there are any days marked "as required" or "cover" on the rosters used for those drivers who work charter services, and there are diagrams with charter trains on them which need to be covered, presumably drivers could become available. That said I do not know how likely this is as I don't work in that particular part of the industry. I also don't know exactly what the proportions of ASLEF membership are for charter drivers in comparison to those for "franchised" (I use that term loosely!) passenger TOCs.

Aside from any actions seen as "breaking strikes", there are a few other items which would need to be considered which could make this idea unlikely to succeed. Unfortunately you have to factor in the potential anarchy when passengers heading for alternative routes, or queuing up for Thameslink trains, see a charter service and try to board it without heeding the conditions. You're looking at all sorts of shenanigans ranging from crowd control issues to non-payment of fares.

Then you have to consider the possibility of paths becoming available, especially if NR would be prepared to accept any sort of peak timetable from GTR up to 2200 the night before. 2200 is no time to be confirming to people whether or not a 1-train-per-day operation is going to be available for their commute. The paths required may also need special access to places like the [South] Eastern side of London Victoria, via Herne Hill or just the Chatham Lines (both of which would still see broadly similar levels of service as usual on a Southern ASLEF strike day) - there are not many other places you would terminate a special charter.

To give another example of what has to be considered, you have to work out the structure for booking, payment, customer care, dealing with replacement transport or refunds if the whole thing doesn't work, and more and more of the nitty gritty which comes with running a commercial passenger operation.

Although various elements of this will have been covered by existing charter operators and those booking charter trains in the past, for the most part these have been for ad-hoc leisure purposes, with little to no deliberate bearing on people's ability to commute to work at a time when the network (and particularly surrounding TOCs/other GTR brands) will be under incredibly severe pressure. Running a replacement for Southern therefore carries many risks and also will not cater for everyone, either with different travel plans or all those thousands usually carried from the affected area (Redhill/Reigate/Earlswood/Nutfield etc.) each day.

I would love this to happen in a way. I am not against the principle of running a replacement for a regular operator in disarray. I am local to the proposal and personally know some of the people who would benefit from this. If a more regular service could be run (say several trains, to cater a bit better for overcrowding or any charter cancellations) and it could be pathed efficiently, several days in advance, I would be much more positive. But it seems reality has bitten again, in one way or another, and I haven't heard much positive spin since the original idea hit the press.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is no one seeing the irony that the charter train will have to have a Guard?!

In a sense it's irony, but more like making a bit of a point as well!

Gaining a guard for these services would not be too hard. There are some who would work the Belmond British Pullman who I'm sure could be rostered, as well as any who sign the stock but could be given route conductors (I'm not sure Southern would look too kindly on it, but there would be a number of conductors on duty during the ASLEF strikes who could be hired and diagrammed to do it - plenty of different routes are signed, including some which are not immediately obvious!).
 

Peter Mugridge

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According to the Daily Telegraph yesterday they are having problems sourcing a locomotive because the various charter operators are worried that they might find themselves being "blacked" by the unions across the board if they supply a locomotive for this idea.
 

ComUtoR

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I think this is an excellent idea and I hope they make it happen. Not so much for strike days etc but for a permanent personal charter commuter service.

It would be interesting to see what happens if they could pull it off. Never gonna happen but I do ponder the possibilities and pitfalls.
 

theironroad

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This has been discussed on a currently active thread and also on a thread that has been deleted. It's not happening and the user group who proposed it have already said they're going to look at alternatives such as coach hire.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think this is an excellent idea and I hope they make it happen. Not so much for strike days etc but for a permanent personal charter commuter service.

It would be interesting to see what happens if they could pull it off. Never gonna happen but I do ponder the possibilities and pitfalls.

....because as we know train pathways are at at a abundance in the peak hours into London termini.

Realky, so let's have one pathway that can have a seated only service for the privileged few while the regular TOC can have one less train running which allows people to stand.
 

ComUtoR

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Realky, so let's have one pathway that can have a seated only service for the privileged few while the regular TOC can have one less train running which allows people to stand.

Why 'privileged few' If they chartered a service then they could always sell the tickets at the same price. There will certainly be people who will pay extra to get a set and a guaranteed train. Many pay for first class. A Charter seems like a step up.

If people were prepared to pay it or prepared to at least open it up then I would support it.
 

theironroad

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Why 'privileged few' If they chartered a service then they could always sell the tickets at the same price. There will certainly be people who will pay extra to get a set and a guaranteed train. Many pay for first class. A Charter seems like a step up.

If people were prepared to pay it or prepared to at least open it up then I would support it.

Firstly, because paying charter prices every day will end up costing far more than a season ticket, especially the annual ones.

Secondly, while the privleged few are enjoying spacious amounts of personal space, all the other commuters will be trying to cram into fewer trains as the pathways have been taken by charter trains. If there was ample pathways available to allow more trains to run then firstly the tocs would probably be running more trains and lessening overcrowding.

I'd rather see all passengers get the chance of a seat than a few get more room than use.

On the tocs where passenger numbers are way over capacity (PIXIE) then there is a good case for getting rid of first class on the grounds of seat availability, though how this would impact on standard class fares may sway the debate. Certainly on busy peak services there are people prepared to pay for fc, but to what extent this subsidises standard class on an annual basis I don't know.
 

yorkie

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I'd like to see this happen; the negative PR for the DfT/GTR would be immense.

However the chances of it actually happening are only negligibly higher than zero.
....because as we know train pathways are at at a abundance in the peak hours into London termini.
There are daily cancellations of several of these!
Realky, so let's have one pathway that can have a seated only service for the privileged few while the regular TOC can have one less train running which allows people to stand.
One less train running? GTR have many trains not running due to incompetence.
 

Abpj17

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Yeah, like that one they had at Southeastern this Autumn. Luxury padding and that... ;)

I wonder if these people even have enough money to lease a rake for God knows how long?

Do they know how to run what would be a 'mini, one off railway'?

Given the compensation they must be due from southern....and if it's a choice between that and losing your job?

I think it would be great :)

I assume if you book a charter every day...there would be a discount for extended use / certainty in advance.

Lack of pathways isn't a credible reason if it's when there is a strike -_- and as others have said, there are significant cancellations in any case.

of my 8 or so rush hour trains on Thameslink over a month:
- 3 had no cancellations
- 2 had 5% cancellations
- 1 had 10% cancellation
- 1 had 20% cancellation
- 1 had 25% cancellation
The 3 most prone to cancellation are most subject to delays too with only 35%, 50% and 55% of train arriving within 5 mins of timetable.
 

talltim

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Arguing that there would be no free paths on a strike day is a bit silly really...
 

glbotu

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Would this be seen as strike-breaking, especially if organised by commuters? The staff are trying to make their point to GTR, not to the passengers. That is, after all, the central purpose of a strike, reminding your employer how valuable you, the employee, are. If Southern hired a charter rake, that would be different, but if the passengers did it, surely that wouldn't be a problem.
 

chris11256

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Would this be seen as strike-breaking, especially if organised by commuters? The staff are trying to make their point to GTR, not to the passengers. That is, after all, the central purpose of a strike, reminding your employer how valuable you, the employee, are. If Southern hired a charter rake, that would be different, but if the passengers did it, surely that wouldn't be a problem.

It was a rail users group trying to charter a train, not Southern.
 

Bletchleyite

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Might be easier and more financially practicable for them to hire a fleet of road coaches? Would be slower, but they would still get to work, and they could still get the Press involved for some good publicity to make GTR look stupid.
 

NSEFAN

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Arguing that there would be no free paths on a strike day is a bit silly really...
The paths would still have to be in the system, even if GTR don't use them. Delay attribution has made the railway very anal when it comes to actually running trains, so a path can't be found in advance then it ain't gonna run!
 

theironroad

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Arguing that there would be no free paths on a strike day is a bit silly really...
Probably a bit silly not to read the thread fully, as the conversation developed in post #14 to using charters on non strike days when paths are fully utilised going into London.

To those saying that the charter could run in the path of a cancelled train, I'd suggest that you're being a little naive if you think a charter loco and rake of coaches with a full crew are sitting in a siding somewhere at 5 minutes notice to quickly use the now available pathway.

Even if the pathway was cancelled the day before, getting stock and crew in the right place is unlikely. If the pathway was cancelled weeks in advance and a suitable return pathway was also available (the cancelled return path may go somewhere different) then theres be a fighting chance if crew and stock can be found.
 

87015

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Probably a bit silly not to read the thread fully, as the conversation developed in post #14 to using charters on non strike days when paths are fully utilised going into London.

To those saying that the charter could run in the path of a cancelled train, I'd suggest that you're being a little naive if you think a charter loco and rake of coaches with a full crew are sitting in a siding somewhere at 5 minutes notice to quickly use the now available pathway.

Even if the pathway was cancelled the day before, getting stock and crew in the right place is unlikely. If the pathway was cancelled weeks in advance and a suitable return pathway was also available (the cancelled return path may go somewhere different) then theres be a fighting chance if crew and stock can be found.
It shouldn't be difficult to arrange path wise - same way LOROL manage to provide additional shuttles on the West London Line using Southern paths (that are not cancelled until the day before) nearly every day for the last six months or so due to GTR being AWOL and LOROL actually wanting to assist passengers.
 
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