Beating Virgin's Peak Anytime Fares

LNW-GW Joint · 28 Jan 2017

Simon Calder has a piece in the Independent on beating the peak Stoke-Euston Anytime Return fare of £282.
Buy a 7-day Season Crewe-Milton Keynes at £172.50, and an Anytime Day Return (Any Permitted) Milton-Keynes-Euston at £39.90. Total £212.40, a saving of £70.
The season is Any Permitted and valid via Stoke and for Break of Journey. Using a season means the trains do not have to stop at MKC.
The same principle applies to many other stations in VT-land, certainly Crewe and Chester.
All you lose is the possible routing into Marylebone and Paddington of the through ticket, and I guess you need a photo and to queue up at a station for the season ticket.
You also get 6 extra days of free travel on the CRE-MKC route if you wish.
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-rail-crewe-stoke-milton-keynes-a7547426.html

As I revealed this week, the best way to get a cheap deal between Stoke and the capital is to buy the aforementioned season ticket together with a return between Milton Keynes and London Euston. Unlike traditional “split tickets”, with a season there is no obligation to travel on a train that stops at the point where the ticket is split. So you can race through Milton Keynes Central at 125mph, which a churlish person might say is the ideal way to view the middle-aged new town.

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All Line Rover · 28 Jan 2017

While £212.40 is hardly good value, this article does indirectly highlight the absurdity of a Stoke to Milton Keynes season ticket - a regulated fare, no less - costing more than a Crewe to Milton Keynes season ticket. Why are the good people of Stoke being charged more for a season ticket covering a shorter distance? Why has VTWC made use of "flex" to increase regulated fares in this way?

Also notable is that the - unregulated - standard class Anytime Return fare costs £282 from Stoke but £261 from Crewe (which has a more frequent service!). Even from Chester, the fare is £276. The people of Stoke are being ripped off, plain and simple.

Joe Paxton · 28 Jan 2017

On a similar tip, and this was literally the first one I looked up...

* Manchester-London Anytime Return: £338.00
versus
* Manchester-MKC 7-day season: £219.90
plus
* MKC-London Euston VT-only Anytime Day Return: £32.60

A total of £252.50, a saving of £85.50.

The MKC-Euston ticket is a day rather than period return, but nonetheless! (That said it's still two hundred and fifty quid.)

kieron · 28 Jan 2017

All Line Rover said:
Also notable is that the - unregulated - standard class Anytime Return fare costs £282 from Stoke but £261 from Crewe (which has a more frequent service!). Even from Chester, the fare is £276. The people of Stoke are being ripped off, plain and simple.

Whereas a Hooton-London one is £323, £46 extra for what could be anything up to £8 in singles (the saving's less impressive if you go via Liverpool, but that takes longer anyway). Virgin may have a carefully considered pricing strategy which would explain how they chose every one of these figures, but we'll never know.

I haven't bought any of these tickets myself, but I'm sure my taxes have helped pay for a fair few.

Realfish · 29 Jan 2017

...Or alternatively, Mr Calder, get your bum into gear, get organised and book ahead for £66 return (or £126 first class).

According to the latest edition of 'Rail' only between 10 and 15% of tickets sold nowadays, are walk up anytime fares. Usually paid by business people who don't mange their time or couldn't care less what they pay (because someone else is picking up the tab)

Cundy66 · 29 Jan 2017

Realfish said:
...Or alternatively, Mr Calder, get your bum into gear, get organised and book ahead for £66 return (or £126 first class).

According to the latest edition of 'Rail' only between 10 and 15% of tickets sold nowadays, are walk up anytime fares. Usually paid by business people who don't mange their time or couldn't care less what they pay (because someone else is picking up the tab)

Or sometimes plans change last second and no option but to pay walk up price. Either way a saving is better than nothing saving.

LNW-GW Joint · 29 Jan 2017

kieron said:
Whereas a Hooton-London one is £323, £46 extra for what could be anything up to £8 in singles (the saving's less impressive if you go via Liverpool, but that takes longer anyway). Virgin may have a carefully considered pricing strategy which would explain how they chose every one of these figures, but we'll never know.
I haven't bought any of these tickets myself, but I'm sure my taxes have helped pay for a fair few.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think all season ticket fares are regulated.
So the fare differences probably reflect the BR pricing structure in 1994.

In the current NRE detail about rail fares, it actually says that railcard discounts on some fares depend on whether they are in the ex-BR Network South East area.
How is a customer supposed to know arcane small print like that?

Failed Unit · 29 Jan 2017

Realfish said:
...Or alternatively, Mr Calder, get your bum into gear, get organised and book ahead for £66 return (or £126 first class).

According to the latest edition of 'Rail' only between 10 and 15% of tickets sold nowadays, are walk up anytime fares. Usually paid by business people who don't mange their time or couldn't care less what they pay (because someone else is picking up the tab)

Did it really say that or was it referring to long distance routes? Considering the vast majority of shorter journeys in the U.K. Don't have the option of purchasing advanced fares I seriously doubt that statement.

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
I'm not entirely sure, but I think all season ticket fares are regulated.

I don't believe they are. That one I'm pretty sure is not; I don't believe they are even required to offer it, and as such I have a feeling we will soon see it either increase, probably to about the price of 3-4 Anytime Returns as is typical elsewhere, or disappear entirely.

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2017

Realfish said:
...Or alternatively, Mr Calder, get your bum into gear, get organised and book ahead for £66 return (or £126 first class).

I am not required to book ahead to use my car.

ys123 · 29 Jan 2017

Realfish said:
...Or alternatively, Mr Calder, get your bum into gear, get organised and book ahead for £66 return (or £126 first class).

Or book a London Midland advance for a tenner each way....

Gareth Marston · 29 Jan 2017

Chester to Euston is £276.00 Anytime Return

Chester to Crewe Anytime Day Return is £12.10
Welshpool to Euston Off Peak Return Any Permiited route is £78.30 restriction code VJ. No arrival pre 1000 M-F or departure pre 0905M-F. No evening peak restriction at all.
There's people who do it.

Deerfold · 29 Jan 2017

Gareth Marston said:
Chester to Euston is £276.00 Anytime Return

Chester to Crewe Anytime Day Return is £12.10
Welshpool to Euston Off Peak Return Any Permiited route is £78.30 restriction code VJ. No arrival pre 1000 M-F or departure pre 0905M-F. No evening peak restriction at all.
There's people who do it.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. That people shouldn't be doing this?

JonathanH · 29 Jan 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
I'm not entirely sure, but I think all season ticket fares are regulated.
So the fare differences probably reflect the BR pricing structure in 1994.

In the current NRE detail about rail fares, it actually says that railcard discounts on some fares depend on whether they are in the ex-BR Network South East area.
How is a customer supposed to know arcane small print like that?

That particular "arcane small print" was introduced by British Rail in 1993. Family and Senior railcards are not valid for journeys wholly within the former Network South East area until off-peak tickets become available. It isn'the even that hard to remember and it is somewhat surprising that it was never extended nationwide.

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2017

Deerfold said:
I'm not sure what point you're making here. That people shouldn't be doing this?

Break of journey (which is normally regarded to include starting/stopping short) is prohibited on the outward portion of the Welshpool ticket, so no, they shouldn't. However, there isn't an awful lot that can be done to stop the precise arrangement noted.

Mind you, given where Welshpool actually is, and the service pattern serving it, I can see no justification for those tickets being valid via Chester whatsoever. Via Chester is not in the remotest bit old-BR "reasonable", it's completely in the wrong direction.

I wonder if we will see this addressed in this Friday's Routeing Guide Update now it's been noted here? Though it would mean no reason to sell the Any Permitted ticket, as there aren't any logical routes otherwise that don't pass through Birmingham, and there's already a route Birmingham ticket which I'd expect most people will buy.

greatkingrat · 29 Jan 2017

It isn't valid via Chester, but it is valid via Crewe. So the point is that Chester passengers could buy a return to Crewe and then use the Welshpool ticket from there.

All Line Rover · 29 Jan 2017

Welshpool to London isn't valid via Chester. It is valid via Whitchurch and Crewe, which is a perfectly logical route.

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2017

greatkingrat said:
It isn't valid via Chester, but it is valid via Crewe. So the point is that Chester passengers could buy a return to Crewe and then use the Welshpool ticket from there.

Ah, I see. I can't see any reason why it should be valid that way, either - it's still going about 50 miles in totally the wrong direction before heading towards London.

And I have my suspicions that as of Friday it will cease to be so valid, based on how quickly TOCs tend to respond to loopholes shown here.

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2017

All Line Rover said:
Welshpool to London isn't valid via Chester. It is valid via Whitchurch and Crewe, which is a perfectly logical route.

How's it logical? It involves heading a long way sort-of north east before heading south east. Via Birmingham is the only logical route to me.

I have said elsewhere I don't like there being too many route restrictions, but I would consider a reasonable fare to go that way to be a split at Crewe but issued on one ticket, not the fare that it actually is.

All Line Rover · 29 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
Ah, I see. I can't see any reason why it should be valid that way, either - it's still going about 50 miles in totally the wrong direction before heading towards London.

And I have my suspicions that as of Friday it will cease to be so valid, based on how quickly TOCs tend to respond to loopholes shown here.

Shrewsbury to London (and, by extension, any journey via Shrewsbury) is valid, and has always been valid, via Crewe because the route via Crewe is, and has always been, faster than the route via Birmingham.

Just to provide some context for those not familiar with these routes, London to Wolverhampton is (point-to-point) 112 miles and has a typical scheduled journey time of 1h 54m, while London to Crewe is (point-to-point) 145 miles and has a typical scheduled journey time of 1h 30m.

The route via Crewe was once "accidentally" removed from the NRG. It was quickly restored and the DfT put it in writing in a FOI request that the route via Crewe is a legitimately valid one.

All Line Rover · 29 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
I have said elsewhere I don't like there being too many route restrictions, but I would consider a reasonable fare to go that way to be a split at Crewe but issued on one ticket, not the fare that it actually is.

There is already a "via Birmingham" fare. Shrewsbury to London "Any Permitted" walk-up tickets are more expensive than those from Crewe, while Shrewsbury to London season tickets are the same price as Crewe to London season tickets. This is a sensible, long-standing pricing structure. Why would you want passengers to have to split at Crewe?

Gareth Marston · 29 Jan 2017

Deerfold said:
I'm not sure what point you're making here. That people shouldn't be doing this?

Others might know but providing condition VJ is met there's nothing in National Rail conditions that prohibits this the passenger will have a valid ticket at all points of the journey.

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2017

All Line Rover said:
Shrewsbury to London (and, by extension, any journey via Shrewsbury) is valid, and has always been valid, via Crewe because the route via Crewe is, and has always been, faster than the route via Birmingham.

I had a look for tomorrow morning around 9am and I found that the following journey times were given:-

Via Birmingham: approx 3h20
Via Wolves-Stafford-Trent Valley (surprised that is Permitted but it seems it is): approx 3h05 but quite a few changes so unattractive to me
Via Shrewsbury: approx 3h45, with the exception of one service that appears to take 3h11 and one that appears to take 4h08

My point stands - that 3h11 one is the only apparent outlier to via Crewe being further and in the wrong direction, and therefore that it should not be valid.

Deerfold · 29 Jan 2017

greatkingrat said:
It isn't valid via Chester, but it is valid via Crewe. So the point is that Chester passengers could buy a return to Crewe and then use the Welshpool ticket from there.

But as has been pointed out, break of journey is prohibited. I thought this thread was about cheaper anytime tickets in any case.

Deerfold · 29 Jan 2017

JonathanH said:
That particular "arcane small print" was introduced by British Rail in 1993. Family and Senior railcards are not valid for journeys wholly within the former Network South East area until off-peak tickets become available. It isn'the even that hard to remember and it is somewhat surprising that it was never extended nationwide.

At the time a lot of the fares outside London had off-peak valid at any time anyway.

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2017

Deerfold said:
But as has been pointed out, break of journey is prohibited. I thought this thread was about cheaper anytime tickets in any case.

It's about ways to legally avoid expensive Anytime tickets. But it probably isn't a sensible thread to have, as VT are probably already looking at ways to remove them.

Deerfold · 29 Jan 2017

Gareth Marston said:
Others might know but providing condition VJ is met there's nothing in National Rail conditions that prohibits this the passenger will have a valid ticket at all points of the journey.

Others knowing doesn't help understanding posts on a public thread.

Presumably the ticket isn't valid even if it is accepted if the passenger broke the restriction.

Gareth Marston · 29 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
I had a look for tomorrow morning around 9am and I found that the following journey times were given:-

Via Birmingham: approx 3h20
Via Wolves-Stafford-Trent Valley (surprised that is Permitted but it seems it is): approx 3h05 but quite a few changes so unattractive to me
Via Shrewsbury: approx 3h45, with the exception of one service that appears to take 3h11 and one that appears to take 4h08

My point stands - that 3h11 one is the only apparent outlier to via Crewe being further and in the wrong direction, and therefore that it should not be valid.

I'd look at the whole day and coming back via Crewe is often the quicker route including a couple a day off the Cambrian.

Deerfold · 29 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
It's about ways to legally avoid expensive Anytime tickets. But it probably isn't a sensible thread to have, as VT are probably already looking at ways to remove them.

That's an odd interpretation of a thread titled "Beating Virgin's Peak Anytime Fares"

All Line Rover · 29 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
Via Wolves-Stafford-Trent Valley (surprised that is Permitted but it seems it is): approx 3h05 but quite a few changes so unattractive to me

Why are you surprised? Wolverhampton to London has one set of fares valid via Birmingham and one, higher, set of fares valid via the faster Trent Valley route which involves a change at Stafford. No different from Shrewsbury to London.

Welshpool to London is unlikely to be attractive via Crewe because this would involve changes at both Shrewsbury and Crewe, but permitted routes derive from those between Shrewsbury and London.

In theory, London to Shrewsbury via Crewe can be done in 2h 10m (in theory, because there is only an hourly service between Crewe and Shrewsbury and it doesn't connect perfectly - i.e. a gap of 10-12 minutes - with any of the regular services from London).

Nonetheless, the 13:10 from Euston via Crewe takes 2h 27m, the 13:40 from Euston via Crewe takes 2h 34m, and the 13:43 from Euston via Birmingham takes 2h 36m. You buy your fare, you make your choice. The 13:40 is non-stop to Crewe and considerably quieter than the perennially overcrowded xx:43 from Euston, while if no London to Shrewsbury fare allowed travel on the 13:10, the first departure would be the 13:23 from Euston taking 2h 51m: arriving in Shrewsbury at 16:14 rather than 15:37 - a delay of almost 40 minutes. And, with an arrival of 16:14 being only 5 minutes earlier than a passenger taking the 13:43 who would arrive in Shrewsbury at 16:19, London to Shrewsbury would effectively be relegated into an hourly service.

Beating Virgin's Peak Anytime Fares

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