Stadler Flirt 'IC'

F Great Eastern · 10 May 2017

sonorguy said:
I suspect that's just advertising blurb to show the art of the possible rather than what GA will actually do. What it also demonstrates is that it's possible to get more seats in with still acceptable leg room.

I prefer leg-room for the whole area of the seat, not just a small niche where someone has to sit with knees together, only small people will find there being no difference, far better to have the same leg-room for the whole area rather than for just a small part of the area in front of the seat.

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Bletchleyite · 10 May 2017

F Great Eastern said:
I prefer leg-room for the whole area of the seat, not just a small niche where someone has to sit with knees together, only small people will find there being no difference, far better to have the same leg-room for the whole area rather than for just a small part of the area in front of the seat.

Even better have the thick seat support in the middle like the Class 175/180 seat, leaving space at the sides where legs can comfortably go.

railfan100 · 10 May 2017

The term Intercity is used it seems for many services now, standards have fallen in many respects over the years in the UK rail system. Never mind at least the 'walk on' fares are reasonable!

Wivenswold · 10 May 2017

For fear of being shot down, could I suggest that Norfolk commuters are lucky to keep this "intercity" level of service after such a huge change in rolling stock.

A cheaper option would surely have been to get 20 extra 10 car Aventras with 2+2 seating for the Norwich and airport trains and stuck a drinks trolley on the GEML ones in the peaks.

I'm not belittling concerns about comfort just trying to add some balance here.

dk1 · 10 May 2017

Wivenswold said:
For fear of being shot down, could I suggest that Norfolk commuters are lucky to keep this "intercity" level of service after such a huge change in rolling stock.

A cheaper option would surely have been to get 20 extra 10 car Aventras with 2+2 seating for the Norwich and airport trains and stuck a drinks trolley on the GEML ones in the peaks.

I'm not belittling concerns about comfort just trying to add some balance here.

Have to disagree with you there. Norfolk passengers through the very nature of Norwich being a fine city & also the general air of financial wealth really do deserve such a premier service & are not overly bothered about paying for such. No need to dampen things down to Lidl levels in this neck of the woods.

47802 · 10 May 2017

Wivenswold said:
For fear of being shot down, could I suggest that Norfolk commuters are lucky to keep this "intercity" level of service after such a huge change in rolling stock.

A cheaper option would surely have been to get 20 extra 10 car Aventras with 2+2 seating for the Norwich and airport trains and stuck a drinks trolley on the GEML ones in the peaks.

I'm not belittling concerns about comfort just trying to add some balance here.

Indeed if I was in charge that's exactly what I would have done, some people on here seem to think they have a right to an Intercity service, where as I see Norwich as a glorified commuter route with a journey time similar to a number of Journeys to the South Coast.

DT611 · 11 May 2017

47802 said:
Indeed if I was in charge that's exactly what I would have done, some people on here seem to think they have a right to an Intercity service, where as I see Norwich as a glorified commuter route with a journey time similar to a number of Journeys to the South Coast.

What is the journey time? If it's over 2 hours then it requires decent comfort fit for the journey length regardless of the traffic type. Intercity or commuter shouldn't actually come into it in this day and age (as almost every line has commuter traffic to a greater or lesser extent these days)

Wivenswold · 11 May 2017

Under 2 hours. Norwich in 90 is the goal.

dk1 · 11 May 2017

Why would you want to order 20 more Adventras from Bombardier rather than Flirts when Stadler are also building a large fleet of bi-mode units?

47802 · 11 May 2017

dk1 said:
Why would you want to order 20 more Adventras from Bombardier rather than Flirts when Stadler are also building a large fleet of bi-mode units?

Why not 1 type of EMU and a Bi-mode

dk1 · 11 May 2017

47802 said:
Why not 1 type of EMU and a Bi-mode

Where Bombardier even offering one?

47802 · 11 May 2017

Wivenswold said:
Under 2 hours. Norwich in 90 is the goal.

Indeed so I think they are quite lucky to have an Intercity spec train with proper onboard catering while Kings Lynn with similar Journey time get's 387's with Ironing Board Seats, No catering and no proper 1st class either.

dk1 · 11 May 2017

47802 said:
Indeed so I think they are quite lucky to have an Intercity spec train with proper onboard catering while Kings Lynn with similar Journey time get's 387's with Ironing Board Seats, No catering and no proper 1st class either.

That was the same 30 years ago when Lynn had mk2b stock with a buffet every 2hrs & Norwich had air-conditioned mk2ds with full restaurant hourly. The GEML has for its full length always been a high earning route.

47802 · 11 May 2017

dk1 said:
Where Bombardier even offering one?

I would imagine Bombardier could have produced an Aventra with 2+2 seating maybe even traditional corridor connections, but the point is something more intercity spec was gone for, I'm not sure what was actually stated in the ITT but no doubt there would have been considerable moaning from the direction of Norwich if something distinctly less than intercity spec had been opted for to replace their Loco Hauled Intercity Trains even though that's all it deserves in my view.

dk1 · 11 May 2017

47802 said:
I would imagine Bombardier could have produced an Aventra with 2+2 seating maybe even traditional corridor connections, but the point is something more intercity spec was gone for, I'm not sure what was actually stated in the ITT but no doubt there would have been considerable moaning from the direction of Norwich if something distinctly less than intercity spec had been opted for to replace their Loco Hauled Intercity Trains even though that's all it deserves in my view.

You bet there would be. Both Norwich/Ipswich & to an extent Colchester have always been very protective of their INTERCITY standards. I even remember Tim Clarke when he was MD agreeing to name one of the 90s 'Colchester Castle' just to please an Essex MP who was upset that no namings on these locos apertained to his constituency.

43096 · 11 May 2017

47802 said:
Why not 1 type of EMU and a Bi-mode

Delivery dates?

One manufacturer may not have been able to meet the delivery programme for the entire fleet (taking into account other builds in progress). Don't forget that meeting the 31/12/19 PRM deadline is of critical importance and they don't want to be modifying any more stock than is necessary.

47802 · 11 May 2017

43096 said:
Delivery dates?

One manufacturer may not have been able to meet the delivery programme for the entire fleet (taking into account other builds in progress). Don't forget that meeting the 31/12/19 PRM deadline is of critical importance and they don't want to be modifying any more stock than is necessary.

Well yes possibly and overall deal from Stadler might have been significantly better than just ordering Bi-Modes relative to an already big order for Bombardier but just imagine the howls of protest if an EMU with bog standard suburban door layout had turned up, even Stadlers slightly quirky door arrangement may not go down well with some people but it probably be regarded as more Inter City than 2 suburban doors per carriage.

Going slightly off the point one thing I am curious to know is if Bombardier could offer an Aventra with more Inter City style end Doors if the customer required it, as the fact that the Crossrail units have 3 doors per side suggests there is more capability in the design to move the doors around compared to the Electrostars.

Domh245 · 11 May 2017

47802 said:
Well yes possibly and overall deal from Stadler might have been significantly better than just ordering Bi-Modes relative to an already big order for Bombardier but just imagine the howls of protest if an EMU with bog standard suburban door layout had turned up, even Stadlers slightly quirky door arrangement may not go down well with some people but it probably be regarded as more Inter City than 2 suburban doors per carriage.

Going slightly off the point one thing I am curious to know is if Bombardier could offer an Aventra with more Inter City style end Doors if the customer required it, as the fact that the Crossrail units have 3 doors per side suggests there is more capability in the design to move the doors around compared to the Electrostars.

Bombardier are marketing the Aventra as a fully flexible design available in whatever configuration is required (up to 125mph). They can change door position, carriage length, interior layout etc. I think the only thing they won't change is the pure EMU aspect

sonorguy · 11 May 2017

F Great Eastern said:
I prefer leg-room for the whole area of the seat, not just a small niche where someone has to sit with knees together, only small people will find there being no difference, far better to have the same leg-room for the whole area rather than for just a small part of the area in front of the seat.

But the legroom may not be an issue anyway, especially if as has been stated, the LEAN seat is cheaper. You'd use them even if the intention was to keep the seat pitch the same with the benefit of increased legroom.

As has been said the split floor layout of the trains means there are only a few seating configurations that work anyway, none of which are likely to look like the 'art of the possible' graphic in the brochure.

F Great Eastern · 11 May 2017

sonorguy: If it's as simple as that why won't Abellio simply say what the seat pitch is? They're going out their way to avoid it...

Ginger: Did you get any answers about the seats so we can put this debate to bed?

DT611 · 11 May 2017

Wivenswold said:
Under 2 hours. Norwich in 90 is the goal.

Oh right, i didn't think it was that short. Not that it removes the validity of the concerns raised by some members which i won't be arguing against considering i don't know the route involved.

47802 said:
I would imagine Bombardier could have produced an Aventra with 2+2 seating maybe even traditional corridor connections, but the point is something more intercity spec was gone for, I'm not sure what was actually stated in the ITT but no doubt there would have been considerable moaning from the direction of Norwich if something distinctly less than intercity spec had been opted for to replace their Loco Hauled Intercity Trains even though that's all it deserves in my view.

Why would it be "all that it deserves" . Is it because of the journey length?

ginger · 11 May 2017

F Great Eastern said:
sonorguy: If it's as simple as that why won't Abellio simply say what the seat pitch is? They're going out their way to avoid it...

Ginger: Did you get any answers about the seats so we can put this debate to bed?

FGE - we gave them a grilling - trust me. We are off to Derby in July to try a full size mock up.....

We raised your specific Qs and were promised detailed answers.....the is (or will be) a full size mock up on the concourse at Norwich so you can try them.....they have said we will have detailed answers shortly - if we dont I will chase them trust me!

Slightly off topic, we also pressed them to have the mock up at LST (including the Adventura seats) - our point was the pampered Norwich commuters (less than 10% of passengers carried) get a mock up, but why not at LST where the bulk of passengers travel from!

That was very much taken on board and I WILL be following that up - after all, abellio (Northern) did it before!

They actually thought that was a good idea, but tried to blame NR for not allowing it. Well as we see the Head of NR on a regular basis, that can be sorted!

Watch this space........

samuelmorris · 11 May 2017

I'll post the outcome of our meeting in the Greater Anglia Rolling Stock thread rather than this one as this really caters to a small proportion of the new fleet, both in terms of revenue and vehicle count

I can't offer you very much in the way of detail at this stage - the guy from Abellio we met was a very nice chap and he was far from clueless, but he didn't have that many of the facts we're after to hand - everything we discussed was noted down so he could get the relevant answers from management. He has since sent us all a follow-up email to assert that fact, so I will look forward to what we get back and myself or ginger will update you all accordingly. For the meantime, see the other thread shortly.

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